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  Preferred OS?  (Read 47161 times)
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Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #120 - Posted 2012-06-22 21:16:03 »

Eli - it's all about context. Visual context, spatial context, temporal context, thought context. Mac OS breaks every single one of these contexts by forcing your attention, mouse, and thoughts elsewhere when dealing with two or more application menus. <edit>@Riven - exactly Smiley Even within a single application it's annoying as hell.

WRT Right mouse buttons - I am aware of the use of the RMB in Mac OS but somehow the way it all works feels different to Windows and Linux leading me to think there's still something not quite right. Can't put my finger on it though, don't go near a Mac unless forced to for testing purposes.

Cas Smiley

Offline 65K
« Reply #121 - Posted 2012-06-22 21:28:11 »

About 20 years ago you had to manually edit low level hardware specs for the X-Server.
And hoped you didn't destroy your monitor.
A few days ago I just wanted to update my Linux video driver. It complained about a missing GCC or something. WTF ? I don't want to compile no freaking driver by myself. Just update. Please.

No sound.
No fan control.
Fonts hard to read.
Does printing work ? I don't know.
No Total Commander Grin

Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #122 - Posted 2012-06-22 21:42:10 »

I've tried every version of Ubuntu since v9, and it gradually was getting better. Until Unity. I'll never look at it again - it's so different to how I use a computer I can't be bothered with it. Mint now looks to be a possibility.

From what I saw from you. You have no idea what Linux or Ubuntu is. Even if you have tried it so often... You haven't tried it for a longer period, so you probably sticked to Windows or Mac OS and its ways to work. You need to test it longer to know how Linux really works.

To Mint. Mint is a Ubuntu, just with some "forked" Gnome 2 and 3 which can be installed on Ubuntu too. This is the way how Linux works, if you don't like the desktop environment, just change it.

gene9 lives on a different planet to me and Roquen I think. I love the way he describes a manual installation: "Just download the .tar.gz or the .zip, unpack it and you're done." I have to look up the commandline switches for gunzip or whatever it is every single time. And in respect to Windows installers - "All the installation dialogs and GUI elements are typically unnecessary." - you are surely joking. But then I suppose this sort of thinking is why Linux mysteriously hasn't suddenly taken the market by storm and obliterated Windows. Ballmer can sleep soundly in his gold-plated bed for a few years yet.

First of all. All of this tar's and zip's are workarounds. You will get them when developers don't use the packaging system. Usually you install packages from the distribution repository (you can find over 60000 packages in Ubuntu's repository), from some third party repositories (like PPA) or you can download and install them manually (like Skype or Chrome). And the second thing is that you don't need a command line tool to unzip an archive, File-Roller (the preinstalled archive manager on Ubuntu) can handle tar or zip ootb.
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Offline BoBear2681

JGO Coder


Medals: 18



« Reply #123 - Posted 2012-06-22 22:15:07 »

Can you do aliases/symlinks on Windows with a *nix shell? When I download non-repository tools, like Scala or Gradle or IntelliJ, symlinks help me install and organize things better than I could do on Windows. For example, I like having an opt/scala/current symlink to whatever the current version is.

NTFS Symbolic Links?
Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #124 - Posted 2012-06-22 22:17:24 »

Command-Tab. No need for clicking. And really, how often do you need to use the menu bar like that? I practically never use the menu bar.

But yes, valid point, it's all opinion. Smiley

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 799
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #125 - Posted 2012-06-22 22:20:56 »

Quote from: Riven
Windows: 2x click
Mac OS X: 3x click + lots of mouse movement

Quote from: Eli Delventhal
No!

Windows: 2x click
Mac OS X: n times Command-Tab until you reach your app + 2x click + lots of mouse movement

Oh, okay. My fault.

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Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 799
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #126 - Posted 2012-06-22 22:23:17 »

I practically never use the menu bar.
You probably learned not to use it, because it's so cumbersome in OS X.

I'm not trolling, I'm serious, when I had to deal with such a menubar, I would prefer not to use it too.

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Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #127 - Posted 2012-06-22 22:35:31 »

Quote from: Riven
Windows: 2x click
Mac OS X: 3x click + lots of mouse movement

Quote from: Eli Delventhal
No!

Windows: 2x click
Mac OS X: n times Command-Tab until you reach your app + 2x click + lots of mouse movement

Oh, okay. My fault.
The most recently used apps are always closest, so it's generally tab once. And I rarely use it for 2 reasons:

- Apps are usually designed to not need a menu bar (really the whole concept of a menu bar seems outdated in a lot of ways)
- Practically all commands are represented with hotkeys

How do you know which app has focus on Windows?

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 799
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #128 - Posted 2012-06-22 22:41:25 »

How do you know which app has focus on Windows?

Two ways:
  • the color of the titlebar is more saturated
  • the taskbar item is in 'pressed' state

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Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #129 - Posted 2012-06-22 22:53:05 »

How do you know which app has focus on Windows?

Two ways:
  • the color of the titlebar is more saturated
  • the taskbar item is in 'pressed' state
Same deal then. I don't think it's prominent enough on either.

See my work:
OTC Software
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Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 799
Projects: 4
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Hand over your head.


« Reply #130 - Posted 2012-06-22 22:54:18 »

Sorry, but I don't get your point here? Clueless

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Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #131 - Posted 2012-06-22 23:01:39 »

From what I saw from you. You have no idea what Linux or Ubuntu is. Even if you have tried it so often... You haven't tried it for a longer period, so you probably sticked to Windows or Mac OS and its ways to work. You need to test it longer to know how Linux really works.
I fear you have mistaken me for someone else.

FWIW I've been using Ubuntu on my server for years and years now. A necessary evil when dealing with the internet. Managing configurations using text files is utter wank compared to pointing and clicking on nice self-explanatory GUIs. I used to use a Windows server way back in 2002 or something, with a remote desktop to it. Utterly brilliant. Just too expensive to run, then I switched to Linux and can't be bothered to change. There's still no way I'm going to bother with it on the desktop though because all of my most treasured apps won't be there and every time I even dare to take a tiny peek off of the well-beaten path I am confronted with man page digging, Googling in obscure forums for answers, hair pulling, and a general increase in my hatred for computers in general.

BTW all you C jockeys out there - I salute you. I had forgotten just how deplorable the entire C toolchain is to use on Linux.

Cas Smiley

Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #132 - Posted 2012-06-22 23:11:10 »

Sorry, but I don't get your point here? Clueless
Not arguing anything. I'm saying I don't think it's obvious enough on either Mac or Windows which app has focus. The only difference between the two is in Mac you have the name of the app in the menu at the very top, and in Windows you have an icon highlighted in a menu on the very bottom.

Both have the slightly grayed out thing for other windows, and I don't think it's obvious enough.

I was reminded of this because about the only time I have focus issues it's not menu bar related, it's hotkey related because I think I'm in a different app than I am.

See my work:
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Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 10



« Reply #133 - Posted 2012-06-23 03:16:56 »

gene9 lives on a different planet to me and Roquen I think. I love the way he describes a manual installation: "Just download the .tar.gz or the .zip, unpack it and you're done." I have to look up the commandline switches for gunzip or whatever it is every single time.

You are a fancy game programmer and you have trouble uncompressing a zip or tarball? Surely, you are joking. People's grandmas can do that. Just do "tar xvf file.tar.gz" or "unzip file.zip".

Managing configurations using text files is utter wank compared to pointing and clicking on nice self-explanatory GUIs.

This sounds horrific! This is antithetical to the whole Java Gradle mindset of having build files so elegant that you want to type them and read them manually without some layer of GUIs and auto-generated black box garbage that anesthetize you to what is happening.

all of my most treasured apps won't be there and every time I even dare to take a tiny peek off of the well-beaten path I am confronted with man page digging, Googling in obscure forums for answers, hair pulling,

A video capture app and a synth app? That's it?

And what type of off the well beaten path things are you doing? Uncompressing a file?

Let me paint a picture, because well, apparently it is somehow unclear.

Who would use a GUI version of a physical calculator? Just use a command line REPL tool like ipython/MatLab/R. Or a web page like Google or Wolfram Alpha.
Offline Gudradain
« Reply #134 - Posted 2012-06-23 06:01:32 »

Hey, I think that thread is actually really useful to realize the weakness of each OS and what people like and dislike Smiley Maybe OS maker should read it Smiley

Don't remember who wrote it, but someone said that he didn't like a Desktop full of Icon. That made me realize that I don't like it either. You can never find anything when you have over 100 icons on your desktop. So usually I just keep a minimal 5-6 icons on it. For the other app, I will use the search thing in Windows 7. But it's kinda strange that the thing taking the most space when I open my computer is also the thing I use the less. The only time I click on a icon on my desktop is when I open my computer and chose the first application I will use.

On the other side, the side bar  is one the things I use the most to switch between my different windows. It's strange because it's so small compare to the desktop and I often feel like I'm missing space on it.

So now I'm thinking : why the hell nobody ever put the side bar at the place of the desktop?Huh?? It would make so much more sense.

The desktop is just a folder, it should be with the other folder. Since we put the side bar at the place of the desktop, we could replace the side bar by a list of the principal folder we often use. That would also speed up the navigation.

----------

bah just some useless thinking Smiley

Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #135 - Posted 2012-06-23 08:20:25 »

I fear you have mistaken me for someone else.

No. It's really you who is uninformed about Linux.

FWIW I've been using Ubuntu on my server for years and years now.

So? You are using it everyday for "usual" work? No? Then it's not the same.

Managing configurations using text files is utter wank compared to pointing and clicking on nice self-explanatory GUIs.

Not really.

1. There are also GUIs for Linux. Look at KDE, even Windows doesn't offer so many possibilities to configure the desktop environment over a GUI.
2. Config files are mostly for applications or tools to start them in the right way, like grub, and you can't really configure grub with a GUI because grub can be installed on servers without a GUI. So config files mostly contain just some startup parameters. Oh, and by the way, there is a GUI to configure grub, you just have to install it. Wink
3. The parameters are easy to set. They are often already set or uncommented, just change it.
4. There is a huge amount of software for Windows which can be configured over config files too, for example you know Eclipse. Cheesy Why do you think there are text files which end with .ini for Windows?

There's still no way I'm going to bother with it on the desktop though because all of my most treasured apps won't be there and every time I even dare to take a tiny peek off of the well-beaten path I am confronted with man page digging, Googling in obscure forums for answers, hair pulling, and a general increase in my hatred for computers in general.

1. Apps. Well, it's not Linux' fault when you don't get your favorite apps for it. You have to ask the developers of this apps. Linux can't really do something to improve the situation but they try. Even if wine is still not at the same level with Windows, it's amazing how some hobby programmers could build this API without any support from Microsoft.
2. Give some precise examples of your problems and not some vague statements. I will try to understand what your problems are.

BTW all you C jockeys out there - I salute you. I had forgotten just how deplorable the entire C toolchain is to use on Linux.

This is an example for a vague statement. What's wrong with C toolchain? Which one is it even?
Offline ReBirth
« Reply #136 - Posted 2012-06-23 08:36:34 »

I can't follow this thread anymore :V

@65K
no sound? I had this problem before with old slackware and waste 2 hours to found the evil. There's no driver for this type of soundcard but you can use similiar one.

Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #137 - Posted 2012-06-23 10:18:15 »

@ontaiwolf - no. I do not care what you think or how you are going to fix it for me.

Cas Smiley

Offline nsigma
« Reply #138 - Posted 2012-06-23 10:23:49 »

I fear you have mistaken me for someone else.

FWIW I've been using Ubuntu on my server for years and years now.

Yes, because judging desktop usage on the basis of a server is great  Wink  On that basis, I should be fine skippering an ocean liner because it's got a steering wheel and a diesel engine just like my car.  Grin  I think you made some good arguments earlier, but not this one!

A necessary evil when dealing with the internet. Managing configurations using text files is utter wank compared to pointing and clicking on nice self-explanatory GUIs. I used to use a Windows server way back in 2002 or something, with a remote desktop to it.

So, if you want a remote desktop, why not put one on it???  It's not there by default (for damn good reasons), but it's not hard to setup.  Better yet, use a browser based configuration GUI.  Mind you, having the configuration stored in text files is not a bad thing.

In mildly related news, interesting to note that Ubuntu will be shipping on ~5% of new desktop PCs this year.

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline Roquen
« Reply #139 - Posted 2012-06-23 10:24:34 »

Quote
What's wrong with C toolchain? Which one is it even?
Well it seems like autoconf -> GNU makefiles still dominates open source.  If your being objective about it...it really is an antiquated pile of poop.  But a lot of common stuff in computer science falls in the same category.  The best you can really say is that it sorta-works.
Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #140 - Posted 2012-06-23 11:14:01 »

@ontaiwolf - no.

No to what?

I do not care what you think

So? Grin

...or how you are going to fix it for me.

I don't want to fix anything for you. I just wanted to know what problems you have with Linux. I just see some vague statements, as I wrote, but no precise information about your problems. All I see is something like this: "I am confronted with man page digging, Googling in obscure forums for answers, hair pulling, ..." Even hair pulling. Cheesy But because of what? Give me some examples.

I understand if you don't like Linux because you can't get used to it or something else, probably because you sticked to Windows and its way to work. But you are uniformed about Linux. Maybe you are trying to get Linux working as Windows or Mac OS (you even wrote this). But that's not gonna happen. Linux is no replacement for Windows or Mac OS, it's an alternative OS. Just try it for a longer period if you are interested or let it be and don't post some vague, subjective or wrong "arguments".

Well it seems like autoconf -> GNU makefiles still dominates open source.  If your being objective about it...it really is an antiquated pile of poop.  But a lot of common stuff in computer science falls in the same category.  The best you can really say is that it sorta-works.

Well. Makefiles are easy to use, that's for sure, so you will see them even in 20 years. But it's difficult to create them if you don't have any experience. I'm not a fan of creating them, I actually prefer CMAKE which is easier to setup and you can get it to work on every OS.
Offline Cero
« Reply #141 - Posted 2012-06-23 14:03:55 »

I have to agree archives in linux are unnecessary complicated

when I install winrar and 7zip, they are in the context menu in windows, meaning rightclick on archive -> various decompress options
rightclick on ANY file or folder -> compress

maybe you have like "open with" for archive file types, if can get that to work, but the compressing in windows is so much easier
maybe you can manipulate the context menu to add stuff. but I dont know how, and in windows, the installer does this by itself, its an option...

Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #142 - Posted 2012-06-23 14:12:23 »

@Cero: Not true. File-Roller is integrated in the Nautilus menu, same thing for Ark and Dolphin in KDE. You can right click on an archive and select "Extract here", or you can right click on any other file or folder and select "Compress". Easy as in Windows. And you don't need to install any third party tool like WinRAR because File-Roller is already preinstalled. You just need to install rar/unrar or 7zip from repository, all other archive formats will work ootb.
Offline Cero
« Reply #143 - Posted 2012-06-23 14:40:16 »

@Cero: Not true. File-Roller is integrated in the Nautilus menu, same thing for Ark and Dolphin in KDE. You can right click on an archive and select "Extract here", or you can right click on any other file or folder and select "Compress". Easy as in Windows. And you don't need to install any third party tool like WinRAR because File-Roller is already preinstalled. You just need to install rar/unrar or 7zip from repository, all other archive formats will work ootb.

definitely wasnt like this last time I checked Ubuntu/Mint
I also dont use nautilus per se but gnome commander, although the rightclick context menu should be the same

btw off topic thing:
last times I had dual boot into Mint, only 2 months ago or so
whenever I booted up mint, my speakers would boost the loudest sound I have ever heard - I immediately had to turn off my subwoofer.
Sounded like when you hold a mic against a speaker and turn it on full blast.
That scarred me. =)

Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #144 - Posted 2012-06-23 14:46:12 »

definitely wasnt like this last time I checked Ubuntu/Mint

It was always like this.
Offline nsigma
« Reply #145 - Posted 2012-06-23 14:49:41 »

definitely wasnt like this last time I checked Ubuntu/Mint

Linux has had better GUI support for archives than Windows (OOTB) for years, including the menu items you refer to.  I remember my frustration with XP on my old dual-boot laptop so that's at least 7-8 years.

One thing I hate in Windows (not sure if it still does it?) is opening Zip archives in Windows Explorer as if they're just ordinary folders - that confuses the hell out of users when something doesn't work from them (like program launching).

That scarred me. =)

LOL, great typo ... at least I hope it is!  Grin

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline Cero
« Reply #146 - Posted 2012-06-23 14:52:34 »


Nope, scarred me for life.
Imagine you have all those problems with linux AND you're afraid a sonic boom goes off when you start it.

Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #147 - Posted 2012-06-23 15:47:04 »

There is a difference between "scared" and "scarred" Wink
Offline Cero
« Reply #148 - Posted 2012-06-23 15:54:12 »

There is a difference between "scared" and "scarred" Wink
"scarred for life" is an expression.

Offline gene9

Senior Member


Medals: 10



« Reply #149 - Posted 2012-06-23 16:02:34 »

Can you do aliases/symlinks on Windows with a *nix shell? When I download non-repository tools, like Scala or Gradle or IntelliJ, symlinks help me install and organize things better than I could do on Windows. For example, I like having an opt/scala/current symlink to whatever the current version is.

NTFS Symbolic Links?

Interesting, I'd never heard of this. This is relatively new in the Windows world and looks like it only works on NTFS rather than FAT32-derived file systems.

I'll check this out when I get back to work and can use a Windows 7 system.

I was reading that even on cygwin type emulation shells, symlinks don't work on Windows, but this is probably a newer feature.
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