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  Preferred OS?  (Read 48933 times)
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Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #330 - Posted 2012-06-29 07:30:06 »

How old are you? 70? Just count the pixels with the mouse, it's at least 7px. That's science. Enough to catch it, well at least if you don't have shaking hands of a 70 years old. I actually don't know how could something like this be a problem, I've never seen a problem there.

No point of an OS? Aha. That's an argument? I mean, what's the point of Windows or every other OS? It's like to say, I like football (with almost everyone watching and playing it), so why do we need basketball, rugby, ice hockey etc.? The other thing is, how can't you find anything? If you install Windows you find Wordpad and Paint as the Office Suite, with almost every Linux distribution you get the best free Office Suite LibreOffice. Same for the browser, all you get from Windows is the Internet Explorer, on Linux Firefox, Chromium or some other WebKit based browser. Do you seriously use Internet Explorer because you don't find anything else to use and you like it? That's for the desktop. Now to the whole market. Linux is the most widely used OS. You probably just don't know that you use it already. It's everywhere, servers, phones, routers, TVs, microwaves...

I don't know what problems some of users have here, probably just too old to learn something new (e.g. in that case to get used to another OS). So have fun with Win 8 and newer. Cheesy And support the OS monopoly, it's, you know, better when there is no choice and no open standards or software (e.g. don't use Java, OpenGL or OpenAL for your games, Firefox, Chrome, LibreOffice, VLC etc. if you can use C#, DirectX, Microsoft Office, Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player and so on). I'm out.
Offline jonjava
« Reply #331 - Posted 2012-06-29 09:01:17 »

Since when did counting pixels become science?

Offline nsigma
« Reply #332 - Posted 2012-06-29 09:16:32 »

I mean everything I've looked at has been so dummied down that I'm not finding anything of use.

Simply put, you haven't explored enough.  On the surface, it's very much a simple, newbie friendly interface.  Beneath the surface there's a huge amount of power, in particular when you focus on using with the keyboard (ironic given half the criticisms of Unity were that it was designed for tablets!  Huh )  Just hold down <super> and wait for the Keyboard Shortcuts page to come up, and learn how to use the keyboard to search the dash and the HUD.  I find it far faster to get things done than Win 7, and that's my key priority.

Reminds me of my favourite quote from an old Sibelius manual - "Learn to use the keyboard.  Mice are evil.  They spread plagues."  Grin

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Offline princec

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« Reply #333 - Posted 2012-06-29 09:37:08 »

I guess that's another reason it's never going to catch on then. Why must the same lessons be learned over and over again? The mouse wins with Joe Public. You put the shortcuts in after you've got the mouse bit right, so the things that people find themselves doing most often can be done more quickly... after they've learned how and what they want to do using the mouse. There is a reason Mac OS is as successful as it is given the uphill battle it fights.

<edit>The resizing edges in Mint Cinnamon appear to be much more forgiving than Unity.
<edit2>Five seconds after I post that, Mint Cinnamon locks up completely, becoming unresponsive apart from the mouse changing shape as I hover over things. Force power off. Fail.

Cas Smiley

Offline nsigma
« Reply #334 - Posted 2012-06-29 09:42:39 »

I guess that's another reason it's never going to catch on then. Why must the same lessons be learned over and over again? The mouse wins with Joe Public. You put the shortcuts in after you've got the mouse bit right, so the things that people find themselves doing most often can be done more quickly... after they've learned how and what they want to do using the mouse. There is a reason Mac OS is as successful as it is given the uphill battle it fights.


You missed my point, which was in response to Roquen's suggestion that the interface was dummied down.  Of course Unity is quick and simple to use with the mouse.  It's even quicker with the keyboard (for the power user, not Joe Public).  The mouse will never be quicker to use than the keyboard, period!

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline Damocles
« Reply #335 - Posted 2012-06-29 09:46:47 »

Linux has a persistant problem with what I call IT Freaks.
Its the type of personalities wich cant comprehend usability and accessability.
The anti personality to Steve Jobs .. guess why Apple got so much $$$

(The type of people who invent Password schemes that force passwords to be so uncomprehendable and constantly changing that people have to write them on a piece of paper,
had that in my university)

Ubuntu made a huge step in the right direction up to 10.04, then gradually moving to another
deterring field "Paternal Lecturing" , wanting to force Unity onto customers to serve a "still purely virtual" Tablet user market.
Good that MINT remines them what users actually want.
A tablet is a tablet and a PC a PC, each having different requirements on user interfaces as they are used differently.

Still I like using Linux for development and all potentially "risky" networking like online banking.

Windows is still a must to have access to the field of PC games and hardware wich just does not offer any propper Linux support.
(And if the Win-OS kills itself I can conviniently fizzle around its files using Linux...)

Good that there is a double-boot...

Offline nsigma
« Reply #336 - Posted 2012-06-29 10:00:13 »

Linux as a persistant problem with what I call IT Freaks.
Its the type of personalities wich cant comprehend usability and accessability.

There's also a lot if us who do get it!

wanting to force Unity onto customers to serve a "still purely virtual" Tablet user market.

This point is just rubbish!  Unity (and Gnome 3) might reflect changes happening in the mobile / tablet space, which IMO is a good thing from a usability and familiarity point of view (Win 8 to an extent too).  They are still powerful desktop interfaces - there's a huge amount of functionality in Unity which would be defunct in a touch-only interface.

Windows is still a must to have access to the field of PC games and hardware wich just does not offer any propper Linux support.

It will be an interesting year for gaming on Linux I think.  Unity3D, Steam, etc. on Ubuntu.

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline Damocles
« Reply #337 - Posted 2012-06-29 10:09:18 »

Unity is neither suited for a Tablet (much to inconsistant, too small items, too perfromance hungry)
Nor a powerful Desktop system when a user must use more that jsut one Program,
but has to interchangably use files and handle probrams in paralel.
The old style of representing program windows simlpy works quicker.
A simple indicator beeing the drop of Ubuntu in favor of Mint.

Unity is simply a zombie between 2 worlds.
And maybe useful for a grandma who just wants to browse. But then
a concept like Chrome OS would be even better.

Offline nsigma
« Reply #338 - Posted 2012-06-29 10:26:20 »

Unity is neither suited for a Tablet (much to inconsistant, too small items, too perfromance hungry)
Nor a powerful Desktop system when a user must use more that jsut one Program,
but has to interchangably use files and handle probrams in paralel.

The old style of representing program windows simlpy works quicker.

In your opinion!  In mine, where I'm doing that day in day out, I actually prefer it to Mint for that very thing.  Unity actually made me switch from Mint.  I don't assume everyone agrees with my POV - you shouldn't either.  Anyway, the representation of windows isn't that different.

A simple indicator beeing the drop of Ubuntu in favor of Mint.

ROFL.  Roll Eyes  Try looking at some actual usage stats rather than distrowatch and you won't see such a clear picture, like the ones pointed at here.  Ubuntu will ship on 5% of new PC's this year too - Mint ships (officially) on very few (fit-pc, and?)

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline Damocles
« Reply #339 - Posted 2012-06-29 10:46:50 »

The numbers dont say how many use Unity.
The are also old Gnome2, KDE, XFCE and LXDE , Desktop versions of Ubuntu.

Linux i686 Ubuntu 10.04     85.5 M   0.05%
Linux i686 Ubuntu 10.10     27 M   0.02%
Linux i686 Ubuntu 11.10     31.2 M   0.02%
Linux i686 Ubuntu 12.04     33 M   0.02%
Linux i686 Ubuntu 8.04  26.6 M   0.02%
(still many old versions in this chart wich have Gnome2 as default)

Or do you know any measure on how many Unity Desktops are running?

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Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #340 - Posted 2012-06-29 10:57:04 »

1. He didn't say anything about Unity. He was just referring to stats that show the user numbers of Ubuntu and Mint to compare them.
2. The numbers don't even say how many Linux users have Ubuntu. For example...
Linux Other - 1,356 M
Linux Ubuntu - 1,088 M
Linux Mint - 12.6 M
So when the system couldn't recognize the client, it just put it under "Linux Other". Well, at least they show the relative numbers, Ubuntu has 90x bigger user base than Mint.
Offline nsigma
« Reply #341 - Posted 2012-06-29 11:00:27 »

The numbers dont say how many use Unity.
The are also old Gnome2, KDE, XFCE and LXDE , Desktop versions of Ubuntu.

Linux i686 Ubuntu 10.04     85.5 M   0.05%
Linux i686 Ubuntu 10.10     27 M   0.02%
Linux i686 Ubuntu 11.10     31.2 M   0.02%
Linux i686 Ubuntu 12.04     33 M   0.02%
Linux i686 Ubuntu 8.04  26.6 M   0.02%
(still many old versions in this chart wich have Gnome2 as default)

Or do you know any measure on how many Unity Desktops are running?

You missed out half the stats which show 64bit for a start.  There are ~6x more hits from Ubuntu 12.04 than for all Mint distros put together, and 12.04 has only been out a month in those stats.  The number of people using anything but the default install are a minority, and I think it's safe to assume the bulk of people have stuck with Unity, or why switch.  Therefore - what mass exodus?

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Offline gimbal

JGO Knight


Medals: 25



« Reply #342 - Posted 2012-06-29 12:06:36 »

Yeah, you see. Now I get why I was seriously confused reading this thread.

I thought this was about Unity Linux and I was really wondering how a distribution would make any difference when it comes to a GUI. But in fact, it is about the Unity window manager built into Ubuntu. Finally, I get it. Darned confusing naming conflicts! Perhaps I should just blame myself for never having much of an interest in Ubuntu. (tech geek eh, I'm more the Gentoo Linux dork).
Offline Roquen
« Reply #343 - Posted 2012-06-29 13:01:01 »

Quote
Simply put, you haven't explored enough.  On the surface, it's very much a simple, newbie friendly interface...
I can see that taken as a one-off my comment was misleading.  I've been using 12 for quite awhile and have zero complaints for my use-case which is 100% programming mode.  Let me that a step back and give you some background.  I must have a windows box available for a wide range of reasons.  My windows installations are on a new machine and remain in-place for the lifetime of the machine.  On the linux side I tend to wipe and update from scratch regularly.  Due to this model, my windows boxes have the vast majority of programs that I need to run (including lots of stuff that's normally unix-a-like).  On the flip side, my linux boxes are minimal, as there's no reason to have any GUI programs installed outside of IDEs & emacs.  This is simply pragmatic, as installing stuff take time.  So for my linux boxes, I install the OS, grab the few programs I need, dock stuff like shell, emacs & IDEs and then I'm virtually done interfacing the window manager.  So, although I've been using 12 for quite awhile, the "unity" thing (I didn't even know its name prior to this thread) hasn't even entered into my consciousness, much less my workflow.  I just tinkered around with it last night out of boredom after reading Cas' comment.

Since most of the time I'm programming, my time is pretty much evenly divided by windows & linux.  As my programming mode tools are set-up virtually identically on both machines...I don't notice what OS I'm runnning (as I mentioned before).  As I keep saying...these things are toasters.

WRT: newbie interface.  I found that very disappointing (granted I only took a quick look).  I don't really see the point of yet-another-os-targeting-joe-average.

Quote
I find it far faster to get things done than Win 7, and that's my key priority.
Great. Reliability, availability of needed programs and impact on workflow are the only rational reasons to make the choice.

Quote
Reminds me of my favourite quote from an old Sibelius manual - "Learn to use the keyboard.  Mice are evil.  They spread plagues."
One great thing about being old (not quite 70 BTW) and having worked prior to GUIs is having spent the year needed to become familiar with the basics of emacs.  My fingers starting doing their thing before I've completed my thought about what I want to do next and it's completely independent of OS & window managers.  As I stated previously, I'm usually doing what I wanted to do in less time it would have taken to move my hand from the keyboard to the mouse or touchpad.  Don't take this as me saying that everyone should run out and learn emacs.  Some unwashed heathens disagree with me on its usefulness.  And if I were hit on the head with a brick and the only effect was that I forgot all the emacs keystrokes and I knew that it would take me a year to re-learn them....I'm not sure if I would or not, because that's a really big time commitment and a huge opportunity cost.
Offline nsigma
« Reply #344 - Posted 2012-06-29 13:17:05 »

I don't really see the point of yet-another-os-targeting-joe-average.

I disagree with that - the easier something is to start learning the better.  As long as there's more there for the power user, should they need it.

And if I were hit on the head with a brick and the only effect was that I forgot all the emacs keystrokes and I knew that it would take me a year to re-learn them....I'm not sure if I would or not, because that's a really big time commitment and a huge opportunity cost.

Actually, shortcuts are not the only thing I'm talking about.  I like the power of the textual search in Unity (which I had before with Gnome Do, etc.)  Simply press <super> and start typing what you want (application name, file name, etc.) or press <alt> in any program and be able to search through menus for what you want.  And it includes fuzzy search and learning what you use most.  Far better than esoteric shortcuts.

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Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 422
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #345 - Posted 2012-06-29 14:22:59 »

Actually the whole HUD and menu thing in Unity promises quite a lot and I can see it being really good in another couple of iterations. What I really don't like is that dock thing on the left, the system wide menu bar thing at the top, the window resizing feel, and scrollbars. It's in the tiny details that it is let down. Even such wretchedly simple things as a few pixels of "whitespace" around certain GUI elements on the menu bar, and toolbar/font sizes/whitespace being just too big in Nautilus and many other UIs. It reminds me of the Sirius Cybernetics NutriMatic Drinks Dispenser giving Arthur Dent a drink that is almost entirely but not quite unlike tea. The UI people seem to almost know what they're doing. Almost.

Cas Smiley

Offline aazimon
« Reply #346 - Posted 2012-06-29 15:42:18 »

Since when did counting pixels become science?
HAHAHAHAHA!  Grin
Next there will be classes on it.
Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #347 - Posted 2012-06-29 16:15:12 »

... dock thing on the left,

I explained it already. It because all the modern screens have the 16:9 aspect ratio, often with a low resolution like 1366x768. I makes more sense on the left.

the system wide menu bar thing at the top
What's wrong with it?

and scrollbars.

They work and they save some space. I don't see a problem there.

a few pixels of "whitespace" around certain GUI elements on the menu bar

This is a bug.
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 422
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #348 - Posted 2012-06-29 18:47:21 »

-I explained it already. It because all the modern screens have the 16:9 aspect ratio, often with a low resolution like 1366x768. I makes more sense on the left.
-What's wrong with it?
-They work and they save some space. I don't see a problem there.
-This is a bug.
- It's not the position I don't like, it's how it works. IMHO the best UI yet developed in this regard is still the Windows XP taskbar. Go on, kill me. Nothing's come close for utility, aesthetic or usefulness yet. You can see exactly what's running all the time and instantly switch to it with a click; and you can have a little resizable panel of mini icons for all the stuff you use constantly; and on the right it's got all the little system daemons and the clock & calendar; and you can drag the whole thing wherever you like. It's great (shame they broke it in Win7).
- See earlier in thread why Mac screen menu sucks. Plus it's broken for various apps, randomly, though that's hearsay because I've never hung around long enough to find out.
- I don't want scrollbars to save space; I've always got lots of space and scrollbars are only there when there's far more stuff than space anyway. I use always visible scrollbars to indicate that there is, indeed, more stuff, and to show always how much of that stuff you can see, approximately. I also like them being inside the window because to my mind a window is the absolute border of a thing. I don't like things extending outside the rectangle; again, it simply upsets my sense of aesthetics. Maybe I'm just bonkers though.
- And finally - I didn't mean "white" space; I just meant "too much space". Which grates massively with the areas where there is too little, like the top or bottom bar, which always seems like everything's crammed together. It's not a bug - just ugly.

Cas Smiley

Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #349 - Posted 2012-06-29 19:03:11 »

- It's not the position I don't like, it's how it works. IMHO the best UI yet developed in this regard is still the Windows XP taskbar. Go on, kill me. Nothing's come close for utility, aesthetic or usefulness yet. You can see exactly what's running all the time and instantly switch to it with a click; and you can have a little resizable panel of mini icons for all the stuff you use constantly; and on the right it's got all the little system daemons and the clock & calendar; and you can drag the whole thing wherever you like. It's great (shame they broke it in Win7).

This sounds to like you were talking about almost every desktop environment. You can have the XP look with KDE or LXDE... You see, choice is good.

- See earlier in thread why Mac screen menu sucks. Plus it's broken for various apps, randomly, though that's hearsay because I've never hung around long enough to find out.

It works only for GTK and Qt plus some other apps. And it doesn't work with apps started as root. I know, it's inconsistent, but Unity developers can't do anything to fix it.

- I don't want scrollbars to save space; I've always got lots of space and scrollbars are only there when there's far more stuff than space anyway. I use always visible scrollbars to indicate that there is, indeed, more stuff, and to show always how much of that stuff you can see, approximately. I also like them being inside the window because to my mind a window is the absolute border of a thing. I don't like things extending outside the rectangle; again, it simply upsets my sense of aesthetics. Maybe I'm just bonkers though.

Then deactivate it. You can also deactivate the global menu.
Offline Roquen
« Reply #350 - Posted 2012-06-29 19:47:03 »

devil's advocate: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cygwinports/
Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #351 - Posted 2012-06-29 20:10:27 »

This site is better http://www.renewablepcs.com/about-linux/kde-gnome-or-xfce/
Offline Roquen
« Reply #352 - Posted 2012-06-29 20:12:42 »

Hehe: Zoom to the bottom left -- those are all windows 7 screenshot.
Offline ontaiwolf

Senior Newbie





« Reply #353 - Posted 2012-06-29 20:19:37 »

I know, they are also too old and some of DEs are modified. In my link the desktop environments are mostly vanilla (or they come with themes of Ubuntu derivates). There are also a description and some numbers.
Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #354 - Posted 2012-06-29 20:47:58 »

My favorite OS is JavaOS circa 1996.  Lips Sealed

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 355
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #355 - Posted 2012-06-29 21:21:11 »

My favorite OS is JavaOS circa 1996.  Lips Sealed
I remember that OS! I ran it in VirtualBox a couple years ago and it was actually not that bad! Grin

Offline ReBirth
« Reply #356 - Posted 2012-06-30 04:54:52 »

My favorite OS is JavaOS circa 1996.  Lips Sealed
You can use Java to WRITE OS?!  Shocked

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

« JGO Overlord »


Medals: 835
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Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #357 - Posted 2012-06-30 05:08:50 »

http://www.jnode.org/

They seem to have wasted a lot of man-hours to implement Swing in ASCII.


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Offline ReBirth
« Reply #358 - Posted 2012-06-30 05:12:54 »

@Riven
But I see JavaOS has GUI (swing), not ASCII like that. I mean, how the hell you create partition table, MBR, etc with Java.

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

« JGO Overlord »


Medals: 835
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #359 - Posted 2012-06-30 05:15:08 »

@Riven
But I see JavaOS has GUI (swing), not ASCII like that. I mean, how the hell you create partition table, MBR, etc with Java.
They have a minimal layer of assembler (not C)

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