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  Any JGOs going to mars?  (Read 9123 times)
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Offline sproingie

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« Reply #30 - Posted 2012-06-05 17:38:02 »

Who owns Mars ?

There's international treaties regarding territoriality of the Moon (basically, no one owns it) but how's that saying go?  Possession is 9/10ths of the law?
Offline Cero
« Reply #31 - Posted 2012-06-05 17:42:05 »


Yeah... so we really should go =D

Offline Mads

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« Reply #32 - Posted 2012-06-05 17:45:18 »

I didn't do the math, but when Mars is at one side of the galaxy and earth on the other, gotta be long. Of course cannot be > 2 AU, but you cannot send data straight through the sun of course...

I sure hope that Mars will never be on the other side of the galaxy, relative to earth. Perhaps our solar-system, but not galaxy  Cool

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Offline Cero
« Reply #33 - Posted 2012-06-05 17:49:10 »

I didn't do the math, but when Mars is at one side of the galaxy and earth on the other, gotta be long. Of course cannot be > 2 AU, but you cannot send data straight through the sun of course...

I sure hope that Mars will never be on the other side of the galaxy, relative to earth. Perhaps our solar-system, but not galaxy  Cool

Oh yea
With all that playing Mass Effect, I just assumed the galaxy isn't that big =D
Of course, solar system, not galaxy =D

Offline Eli Delventhal

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« Reply #34 - Posted 2012-06-05 19:12:07 »

I find this very interesting and perhaps exciting, but I definitely agree with a lot of the negatives posted on here. A six month trip to prison says Riven, and I think that's totally true to some extent. You'll be staring at the same 20 cubic feet of walls for the rest of your life, that much is the same. But I think being in charge of your own destiny and being able to call your own shots changes that. Think of settlers in the western United States - they got in a wagon and traveled across the country for months before finally arriving in some forest area with almost nobody (or nobody around). They had to cut down trees and clear areas to build, and wandering far from home was almost certain death due to the animals (bears!) and the natives. Although it's different because theoretically you could wander and survive, it's also very similar.

You wouldn't be a prisoner, you'd be a modern day pioneer. Lewis and Clark. Magellan. Columbus.

The biggest sacrifice would be being broken from the instantaneous all-enveloping communication we have all become so used to. I hate waiting 15 seconds for information, 45 minutes might seem a bit intense.

And I would really miss my family. And the other 3 people could potentially drive me crazy, but then again I'm a pretty easy-going guy, and I have a lot of skills already that could be useful.

But I'm married and would never be able to have kids, and probably couldn't go with my wife either.

Then again, starting a completely new society, having such a strong sense of being important... wooee, complicated choice, no?

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Offline sproingie

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« Reply #35 - Posted 2012-06-05 19:26:22 »

Settlers of the American Frontier moved to a place where you could walk outside for an hour and not see your neighbor.  Seems rather the exact opposite of the sort of hive experience you'd have in the tin can colony on Mars.  Even Magellan made landfall now and then.  You'd be a trailblazer, but you damn well better enjoy your confinement.
Offline Cero
« Reply #36 - Posted 2012-06-05 19:42:27 »

pretty sure they can eventually build suits and buggys and shield you sufficiently

Offline sproingie

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« Reply #37 - Posted 2012-06-05 19:48:16 »

I think we can all agree this ain't happening in ten years.
Offline teletubo
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« Reply #38 - Posted 2012-06-05 19:54:05 »

About the social/psychological aspect, the Russians recently finished an experiment simulating this with some astornauts which spent 520 days in a "Mars trip":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500

Quote
The experiment was intended to yield valuable psychological and medical data on the effects of the planned long-term deep space mission. The experiment permitted the study of the technical challenges, work capability of crew and management of long-distance spaceflight. Communications lag, autonomy, resource rationing, health, conditions of isolation and hermetically closed, confined environment, are the main peculiarities of the Martian flight.


Offline matheus23

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« Reply #39 - Posted 2012-06-05 20:06:39 »

About the social/psychological aspect, the Russians recently finished an experiment simulating this with some astornauts which spent 520 days in a "Mars trip":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500

Quote
The experiment was intended to yield valuable psychological and medical data on the effects of the planned long-term deep space mission. The experiment permitted the study of the technical challenges, work capability of crew and management of long-distance spaceflight. Communications lag, autonomy, resource rationing, health, conditions of isolation and hermetically closed, confined environment, are the main peculiarities of the Martian flight.



oh, I have seen a documentation about that project on Television Cheesy
But I think these people had in mind, that they will get back on Earth one day, or, they even ARE on Earth all the time... But being on Mars is kind of another thing...

That were the things, which went through my mind, watching that documentation.

But also, they are kind of trapped on that planet... forever...

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Offline theagentd
« Reply #40 - Posted 2012-06-05 20:08:26 »

"It was a sound stage on Mars!"

We're so close to uncovering the truth of the moon landing! Of course this is worth it! So signing up if I can get regular computer updates!

Myomyomyo.
Offline Cero
« Reply #41 - Posted 2012-06-05 20:48:16 »

About the social/psychological aspect, the Russians recently finished an experiment simulating this with some astornauts which spent 520 days in a "Mars trip":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500

Quote
The experiment was intended to yield valuable psychological and medical data on the effects of the planned long-term deep space mission. The experiment permitted the study of the technical challenges, work capability of crew and management of long-distance spaceflight. Communications lag, autonomy, resource rationing, health, conditions of isolation and hermetically closed, confined environment, are the main peculiarities of the Martian flight.


I know about MARS 500, but I couldn't find any results of the experiments when I looked it up.
Maybe the just dont wanna make that data public...

Offline Eli Delventhal

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« Reply #42 - Posted 2012-06-05 21:19:57 »

Settlers of the American Frontier moved to a place where you could walk outside for an hour and not see your neighbor.  Seems rather the exact opposite of the sort of hive experience you'd have in the tin can colony on Mars.  Even Magellan made landfall now and then.  You'd be a trailblazer, but you damn well better enjoy your confinement.

Not really. You stayed around your home or well-traveled trails or you got murdered. So you were in close confines with your family pretty much all the time. You can still explore Mars, you just need to be in a suit. Similar I think.

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Offline JESTERRRRRR

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« Reply #43 - Posted 2012-06-06 07:32:36 »

Things break and go wrong; considering how often my pc 'breaks down' id call it a death trap, a quick one
Offline krasse
« Reply #44 - Posted 2012-06-06 08:39:34 »

Things break and go wrong; considering how often my pc 'breaks down' id call it a death trap, a quick one

Yes, for example Apollo 13 was almost a complete disaster, but they were lucky.

Offline ReBirth
« Reply #45 - Posted 2012-06-06 10:48:44 »

It must be really, really lonely to be alone on Mars with only 3 other people that you hardly knew before to socialize with.
It would be different if the other 2 are hot chicks, and you're supplied with all games, consoles, and tons of bacon.

Who own Mars? those people on UN will, and make us to buy land later on there exactly like Earth.

And I hope they also give tons of weapon. Who knows what happened if Doom is really real?

Offline Roquen
« Reply #46 - Posted 2012-06-06 12:50:55 »

Errr...I was just going to say this sounds like the intro part of a horror movie.
Offline tberthel
« Reply #47 - Posted 2012-06-06 13:34:58 »

I remember signing up to be a Martian before, but I don't see the signup list.

I would prefer to be on the first ship out of the solar system, but I could settle on Mars.

Online Riven
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« Reply #48 - Posted 2012-06-06 13:53:51 »

Settlers of the American Frontier ... [snip]
Not really. You stayed around your home or well-traveled trails or you got murdered. So you were in close confines with your family pretty much all the time. You can still explore Mars, you just need to be in a suit. Similar I think.
You watched too many movies. It might have been dangerous, but with your scenario, everybody would be dead. People were hunting, farming, trading, making long trips to find gold... even in a modern day war zone you don't get instantly murdered doing your day-to-day business.

I bet that while on Mars, you'd kill for the freedom and safety of the Wild West Smiley

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Offline Eli Delventhal

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« Reply #49 - Posted 2012-06-07 23:36:06 »

Settlers of the American Frontier ... [snip]
Not really. You stayed around your home or well-traveled trails or you got murdered. So you were in close confines with your family pretty much all the time. You can still explore Mars, you just need to be in a suit. Similar I think.
You watched too many movies. It might have been dangerous, but with your scenario, everybody would be dead. People were hunting, farming, trading, making long trips to find gold... even in a modern day war zone you don't get instantly murdered doing your day-to-day business.

I bet that while on Mars, you'd kill for the freedom and safety of the Wild West Smiley
Perhaps I was exaggerating, but you're also missing the fact that the Martians will be free to roam Mars just as Wild Westerners were free to roam the forest. Also I'm thinking early settlers, not when there were towns etc. Many many many of them did die. Just read Wikipedia, the example of the Roanoke colony is a good one.

There are of course huge differences, mainly that there is no oxygen, there are no animals to hunt, a tear in your suit can mean death... but getting your hand cut while chopping wood could easily lead to infection and death, or you could cholera from drinking bad water, etc. etc. Early settlers had to stick extremely close and be extremely careful. Thus I draw a lot of similarities.

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Offline sproingie

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« Reply #50 - Posted 2012-06-07 23:40:33 »

I don't think Roanoke was exactly typical.  And yes, "no oxygen" is kind of a biggie.  Lack of any vegetation or life whatsoever is sort of another.
Offline Eli Delventhal

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« Reply #51 - Posted 2012-06-07 23:49:31 »

I don't think Roanoke was exactly typical.  And yes, "no oxygen" is kind of a biggie.  Lack of any vegetation or life whatsoever is sort of another.

Smiley

Not knowing what happened to Roanoke was not typical. A fort / colony being destroyed was extremely typical. Even if you read about Roanoke you'll find that it was abandoned / destroyed 2 or 3 times before the disappearance.

But this getting way off base. My whole point was that going to Mars is comparably dangerous and isolated as life was for very early American settlers. I'd say the situation itself is much more dangerous, but the technology matches that to make them comparable.

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Online Riven
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« Reply #52 - Posted 2012-06-08 00:28:19 »

I refuse to agree to disagree Smiley

Even if a Wild West colony were to fail, it would certainly take many years of struggling. Besides, when a single colony fails repeatedly, it's probably just a poor location for human inhabitance. For every colony that failed miserably, there were other colonies that thrived. If not, there would never have been the expansion to the scale that allowed the settlers to take over the whole continent.

Without any resources, you can survive 3 days on Earth. Make that 3 weeks if you have accss to water. Make that 3 hours on Mars, and your oxygen will run out. If you run into trouble, you're pretty much dead. We even forgot about 'cabin fever', the human mind can't handle being confined. The whole reason that society built prisons was to punish people by imposing 'inhuman' conditions.

Last but not least, the gravity on Mars is about a third of that on Earth: your mucles and bones will suffer, unless you exercise a few hours a day, which consumes vast amounts of energy, and well, is utterly boring.

I think it's safe to conclude that it's in no way comparable - despite the similarities.

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Offline Cero
« Reply #53 - Posted 2012-06-08 01:06:26 »

The whole reason that society built prisons was to punish people by imposing 'inhuman' conditions.
I would say it's mainly to protect law-abiding people, while saving money and room.

Last but not least, the gravity on Mars is about a third of that on Earth: your mucles and bones will suffer, unless you exercise a few hours a day, which consumes vast amounts of energy, and well, is utterly boring.
Actually I think you dont have to exercise.
Astronauts have to exercise in space, because there is NO gravity and then they go back to earth. When you stay on Mars forever anyway, it wouldn't be a problem if you body adapts to its gravity.


At least on Mars there is no gang wiping out your entire village...
well hopefully

Online Riven
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« Reply #54 - Posted 2012-06-08 01:07:41 »

Last but not least, the gravity on Mars is about a third of that on Earth: your mucles and bones will suffer, unless you exercise a few hours a day, which consumes vast amounts of energy, and well, is utterly boring.
Actually I think you dont have to exercise.
Astronauts have to exercise in space, because there is NO gravity and then they go back to earth. When you stay on Mars forever anyway, it wouldn't be a problem if you body adapts to its gravity.
Your body cannot adapt. It will deteriorate.

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Offline Cero
« Reply #55 - Posted 2012-06-08 02:38:49 »

Last but not least, the gravity on Mars is about a third of that on Earth: your mucles and bones will suffer, unless you exercise a few hours a day, which consumes vast amounts of energy, and well, is utterly boring.
Actually I think you dont have to exercise.
Astronauts have to exercise in space, because there is NO gravity and then they go back to earth. When you stay on Mars forever anyway, it wouldn't be a problem if you body adapts to its gravity.
Your body cannot adapt. It will deteriorate.

What are talking about ?
The Mars gravity will be the "workout" to sustain proportional bones/muscles, just like we dont lose bone & muscle on earth because of gravity.
The flight in zero g is a problem, but once there I don't think it's a problem.
Actually I just assume that would be the case, but looking at how the body works, it should be.
Someone on earth who doesn't workout on earth doesn't get crushed by the gravity, maybe easily exhausted.
Should be the same on Mars.
Moon people, as in persons born on Moon, should just be bigger than normal people, but would do fine aswell... On Moon of course.

There should only be a problem when you enter a gravity your body can't handle.
(Although zero g without training, even if you would never return to any gravity, might be problematic anatomically, not sure)

Online Riven
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« Reply #56 - Posted 2012-06-08 02:47:11 »

You seem to overestimate the speed of evolution.

Human bodies are tuned to their environment over hundreds of generations.

You seem to assume that when at Mars, the detoriation of bone is in balance with it's environment. That logic would also mean that when in space, the detoriation of bone is again in balance with it's environment. Sadly, this isn't true. When you'd be in space for extended amounts of time (years), your bones will snap upon the slightest bump. The body cannot adapt, it simply can't survive in these new conditions. For it to adapt, it would probably take a few hundred generations, for which the gravity is slowly reduced - unnoticable for an individual.

The same applies for Mars, the moon, anywhere.

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Offline sproingie

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« Reply #57 - Posted 2012-06-08 03:06:50 »

0.3G might be enough to keep you reasonably healthy, unlike zero-g (it's not just the osteoporosis, it also screws up your circulation).  There's not been any significant research though, since it's basically impossible for us to simulate fractional gravity for any extended length of time -- it's all or nothing.

What could get really screwed up is development.  If you can't have any kids conceived and born on a colony, you've got no hope of truly settling it.

We really are good and stuck here, and that means we need to clean our shit up right here on Earth.
Offline Gjallar

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« Reply #58 - Posted 2012-06-08 03:19:56 »

We really are good and stuck here, and that means we need to clean our shit up right here on Earth.

Clean our shit? Ha! Let's hide it underground! Out of sight, out of mind...

I hate humanity :/
Offline krasse
« Reply #59 - Posted 2012-06-08 08:19:01 »

The gravity problem is probably solved by rotating stuff on the ship.
It is much easier to build or send and use a similar system on the surface of mars than in space if there are any bone issues there.

Maybe they will have to spend some time in a rotating device on mars as well, for example during sleep. I think it is that "easy" Smiley

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