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  Game controls - simple or sophisticated?  (Read 6477 times)
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Offline princec

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« Reply #30 - Posted 2012-05-31 10:06:14 »

I recall that Carmack argued strenuously against the concept of a "Use" button after Quake but was overruled. Which is a shame, because IMHO he was right.
Andy Schatz did a very interesting article about the design of Monaco recently and how his experiences with Apple made him design the game - read it on Penny Arcade here.

<edit>Actually just reading that article through again basically just summarised my whole POV on the subject I posted earlier Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline Orangy Tang

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« Reply #31 - Posted 2012-05-31 11:17:06 »

I recall that Carmack argued strenuously against the concept of a "Use" button after Quake but was overruled.

I quite liked the seamless gui stuff that Doom 3 did, it allowed interesting in-world interfaces without being jarring or needing a use key. You can see them used to enter a combination at the beginning of this vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r30SlYQhXgo&feature=relmfu

Anyone know any other games that did anything similar?

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Offline CaptainJester

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« Reply #32 - Posted 2012-05-31 11:20:24 »

Xbox controller is great, just need time to get used. However it is only good for FPS type. In other side, PS controller is bad for FPS.

All FPS games suck with a joystick/controller. The only good way to play them is with mouse and keyboard.

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Offline ReBirth
« Reply #33 - Posted 2012-05-31 12:15:14 »

Xbox controller is great, just need time to get used. However it is only good for FPS type. In other side, PS controller is bad for FPS.

All FPS games suck with a joystick/controller. The only good way to play them is with mouse and keyboard.
The best controller for FPS is mouse+keyboard. The best game for Xbox controller is FPS. Playing PES with xbox'con isn't funny. They made it with two triggers, so you can shoot with dual gun and go play Halo 2 or Darkwatch!

Offline kappa
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« Reply #34 - Posted 2012-05-31 17:14:37 »

It really depends on the type of game, there really isn't a single input device that fits all needs.

All FPS games suck with a joystick/controller. The only good way to play them is with mouse and keyboard.
I'd say that is true for fast paced FPS games (Quake, Unreal Tournament, etc), however slower FPS games (Halo, Golden Eye, etc) work reasonably well on a game controller.

RTS games (Starcraft, Warcraft, C&C), especially those requiring high APM really do work best with keyboard and mouse, don't see another controller scheme beating them any time soon.

Beat em ups (Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, King of Fighters, etc) work best and most naturally with an arcade stick, there really is no going back to other controllers once you've mastered the arcade stick. Playing these type of games with a Game pad will pretty much destroy your thumbs.

Game pads are typically a slower input medium than the above specialist controllers, however they do give much clearer, simpler and slower feedback to the player from button press to reaction on screen (the original nes controller design is a nice example). Its also why they are mostly used in game systems aimed at the masses (e.g. consoles, handhelds, etc). Some people just require input to be slower as its less intimidating, easier for them to pick up and understand. Its also why I think most games these days have in game buttons/switches that you have to manually and consciously press to trigger. Personally I do prefer the more streamlined approach of quake style buttons that trigger automatically on touch or on being shot but I can see why it can cause confusion for certain type of players.
Offline Cero
« Reply #35 - Posted 2012-05-31 19:38:47 »

Beat em ups (Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, King of Fighters, etc) work best and most naturally with an arcade stick, there really is no going back to other controllers once you've mastered the arcade stick. Playing these type of games with a Game pad will pretty much destroy your thumbs.

I have actually literally burned my fingers playing Beat em ups with pads. Of course thumbs are the first to go. Just do 30 Hadoukens in Street Fighter and you can already feel it.

Offline gimbal

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« Reply #36 - Posted 2012-06-01 07:48:29 »

Just do 30 Hadoukens in Street Fighter and you can already feel it.

I have only one response to that.

"Cheesyyyyyyy!!!!"
Offline CaptainJester

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« Reply #37 - Posted 2012-06-02 01:34:25 »

It really depends on the type of game, there really isn't a single input device that fits all needs.

All FPS games suck with a joystick/controller. The only good way to play them is with mouse and keyboard.
I'd say that is true for fast paced FPS games (Quake, Unreal Tournament, etc), however slower FPS games (Halo, Golden Eye, etc) work reasonably well on a game controller.

RTS games (Starcraft, Warcraft, C&C), especially those requiring high APM really do work best with keyboard and mouse, don't see another controller scheme beating them any time soon.

Beat em ups (Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, King of Fighters, etc) work best and most naturally with an arcade stick, there really is no going back to other controllers once you've mastered the arcade stick. Playing these type of games with a Game pad will pretty much destroy your thumbs.

Game pads are typically a slower input medium than the above specialist controllers, however they do give much clearer, simpler and slower feedback to the player from button press to reaction on screen (the original nes controller design is a nice example). Its also why they are mostly used in game systems aimed at the masses (e.g. consoles, handhelds, etc). Some people just require input to be slower as its less intimidating, easier for them to pick up and understand. Its also why I think most games these days have in game buttons/switches that you have to manually and consciously press to trigger. Personally I do prefer the more streamlined approach of quake style buttons that trigger automatically on touch or on being shot but I can see why it can cause confusion for certain type of players.
I can't even aim fast enough in Halo with the gamepads. You have to move the joystick just a touch. Oops overshot. Move back. Damn overshot again. Ad infinitum. Or worried about overshooting. Inch a bit. A bit more. A bit more. A bit....dead.

Offline Jimmt
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« Reply #38 - Posted 2012-06-02 03:20:59 »

True enough. Gamepads and joysticks are pretty much equally bad, but in FPS's joysticks have the advantage.
Offline ags1

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« Reply #39 - Posted 2012-06-02 15:10:11 »

I started playing LOTRO last night and the WASD controls feel very grainy. Trying to get in front of a spider to whack it felt less than heroic and more like parallel parking. I think the spider died of laughter.

Also, the camera tends to get stuck in a tree while I am busy parking in front of a very patient monster - I wonder if there is a way of not drawing scenery intervening between the camera and the avatar? It can't be easy because it seems all these games have the same problem. Maybe a pixel shader in the middle of the screen that lets through the image of the avatar? I don't know what I'm talking about, yet :-(

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Offline Jimmt
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« Reply #40 - Posted 2012-06-02 21:38:19 »

I've never had any problems with WASD. Just other stuff, like the camera you mentioned.
Offline R.D.

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« Reply #41 - Posted 2012-06-02 22:45:47 »

Also, the camera tends to get stuck in a tree while I am busy parking in front of a very patient monster - I wonder if there is a way of not drawing scenery intervening between the camera and the avatar? It can't be easy because it seems all these games have the same problem. Maybe a pixel shader in the middle of the screen that lets through the image of the avatar? I don't know what I'm talking about, yet :-(

That can be done yes. Diablo 3 does this with great effect since you always have an isometric view.
Offline sproingie

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« Reply #42 - Posted 2012-06-03 16:24:53 »

Torchlight renders outlines of characters that are obscured by scenery.  Diablo 3 tends to avoid occluding your view in the first place by various means, and simply removes foreground scenery when it does.  LOTRO sounds like it has a simply unforgiveable control/camera scheme, and any MMO where they won't put the effort into fixing that sort of thing will soon be a dead MMO.
Offline Jimmt
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« Reply #43 - Posted 2012-06-03 20:00:01 »

Yeah, any problems like that should be fixed immediately. It's probably a concept/design problem tho
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