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  Who would you consider a programmer?  (Read 13689 times)
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Offline UprightPath
« Reply #60 - Posted 2012-08-02 03:57:09 »

Having a beard or long hair... Or both & if not that cloths that just say "meh".
But yeah if not they things I think you can tell if you start having a conversation about programming what tools, engine you use etc. Smiley

I have a beard (Well trimmed), long hair (Because it's cheap), and good clothing (In fact, I have pairs of pants and shirts that I'm still wearing after eight years and they still look good).

I got '-70' Geek. Because I tend to do the pile of Meat... However, I take issue with the 'Hang out with Friends' being a positive. I mean seriously, I go out and play Magic the Gathering with them and Arkham Horror. How do those not increase my geek quotient?

Offline ReBirth
« Reply #61 - Posted 2012-08-02 06:23:11 »

The quiz seems off by little. I picked "Virgin" yet no boost.

Offline matheus23

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« Reply #62 - Posted 2012-08-02 08:02:41 »

I got '-70' Geek. Because I tend to do the pile of Meat... However, I take issue with the 'Hang out with Friends' being a positive. I mean seriously, I go out and play Magic the Gathering with them and Arkham Horror. How do those not increase my geek quotient?
wth... there are so many people playin mtg... intresting...

Off or ontopic, whatever:
To the stuff about HTML:
You can't do anything in html, unless you include scripts, for example javascript. Then you are able to make calculators or something like that. But only writing html is like drawing, but with "code". It's like you save animation stuff about your sprites in XML files, you still can't calculate with xml (Exept you're Matthias Mann or mess around in TWL Theme files... ). It's something which declares stuff, something what says how it has to look like, you can't programm any calculators with html.

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Offline ReBirth
« Reply #63 - Posted 2012-08-02 08:09:01 »

you can't programm any calculators with html.
Joke time!
1  
<iframe src="http://www.online-calculator.com" />

Offline matheus23

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« Reply #64 - Posted 2012-08-02 08:54:25 »

you can't programm any calculators with html.
Joke time!
1  
<iframe src="http://www.online-calculator.com" />

Cranky

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Offline keldon85

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« Reply #65 - Posted 2012-08-02 08:56:29 »

It's all about the complexity of the algorithmic/structural/processing problems you are able to solve. In programming we are often solving logical problems symbolically, but a sound engineer is solving a complex processing problem visually. But that's not stopping a graphic designer from building a calculator in minecraft.

p.s. I got Geek -50 because I drink tea, listen to classical music when I work (sometimes it's Samba, Gospel or Electronica) and  persecutioncomplex some personal stuff ... yeah Wink

Offline UprightPath
« Reply #66 - Posted 2012-08-02 09:01:33 »

p.s. I got Geek -50 because I drink tea, listen to classical music when I work (sometimes it's Samba, Gospel or Electronica) and  persecutioncomplex some personal stuff ... yeah Wink

Really does feel like the Brogrammers test was written by other varieties of geek, eh? I drink it when I'm feeling posh. And Classical should count. Especially if you're listening to the more obscure artists or enjoy certain Thematically geek operas (Like tell me you don't feel like a geek when you hear O Fortuna from Carmina Buruna.)

Offline Oskuro

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« Reply #67 - Posted 2012-08-02 09:07:39 »

You can't do anything in html

You can make webpages.  Cranky

You know, the actual purpose of the language? Complaining about HTML not being (usually) able to do things beyond its purpose is like complaining a hammer is no good at sawing off wood...

... you HTML-phobe!  Tongue


Offline keldon85

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« Reply #68 - Posted 2012-08-02 09:12:20 »

You can't do anything in html

You can make webpages.  Cranky

You know, the actual purpose of the language? Complaining about HTML not being (usually) able to do things beyond its purpose is like complaining a hammer is no good at sawing off wood...

... you HTML-phobe!  Tongue



Real programmers can saw wood .... with HTML ... true stories :p

Offline matheus23

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« Reply #69 - Posted 2012-08-02 09:14:12 »

You can't do anything in html

You can make webpages.  Cranky

You know, the actual purpose of the language? Complaining about HTML not being (usually) able to do things beyond its purpose is like complaining a hammer is no good at sawing off wood...

... you HTML-phobe!  Tongue


1. I'd like to correct myself: You can't calculate or execute tasks in HTML. The "language" HTML is not turing-complete!
2. I don't complain about HTML itself. It does it task, and that beautifully, even at the moment I'm writing this. But it's task is NOT to compute anything, and people telling you to be programmer, only because they are able to do things in HTML (in this case Webdesign) is IMO wrong. They aren't, unless - as said often enough - they do something with scripts in HTML (like for example JavaScript...). People who "write" in HTML aren't programmers, they are usually called webdesigner.

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Offline gimbal

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« Reply #70 - Posted 2012-08-02 09:39:52 »

People who "write" in HTML aren't programmers, they are usually called webdesigner.

Its how you bring it really, much like it isn't a good idea (and also a lie) to say that housewives don't work Wink

I have a huge respect for webdesigners, they do things I will never be able to do. I can hammer out HTML like the rest, but I'll never be able to pick a proper color palette and define an overall look & feel for example, I have to steal that from others. But they're not programmers because HTML and CSS are not programming languages, Its as simple as that. It starts to become vague when you include Javascript into the mix though, especially nowadays.
Offline matheus23

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« Reply #71 - Posted 2012-08-02 09:53:00 »

People who "write" in HTML aren't programmers, they are usually called webdesigner.

Its how you bring it really, much like it isn't a good idea (and also a lie) to say that housewives don't work Wink

I have a huge respect for webdesigners, they do things I will never be able to do. I can hammer out HTML like the rest, but I'll never be able to pick a proper color palette and define an overall look & feel for example, I have to steal that from others. But they're not programmers because HTML and CSS are not programming languages, Its as simple as that. It starts to become vague when you include Javascript into the mix though, especially nowadays.

Woah... finally someone who sums up just what I wanted to say. Yes I have respect for webdesigners. I just wanted to say that they aren't programmers, they are webdesigners. And then there is the exception with JavaScript.
Perfect, thank you Smiley

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Offline Oskuro

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« Reply #72 - Posted 2012-08-02 13:27:11 »

Actually, programming is just translating a concept or idea to a format (algorithm) that a computer can understand (parse).

Designing a WebSite (Color, composition, layout) is completely different from translating it to HTML for the web browsers to process.

In fact, designers will rarely code HTML, and will either use design tools, or rely on coders to do it.

HTML might not be the most flexible language in the world, but even the presentation of static information requires a certain level of competence, specially if you start mucking about with CSS, crosslinking and the like.


Now, you might say that by my definition, someone typing in Word is a programmer because she is translating an idea to computer format. But the thing is, Word abstracts that step and handles the actual translation.

On the other hand, someone implementing the very same document in LaTeX, for example, is actually programming, as the resulting algorithm is then parsed into the final document.


The ridiculous part of this thread (and why I'm actually going about this half-jokingly, sorry if I seem to be too serious) is the assumption that being a programmer requires either a certain level of skill, or the use of certain tools. It's just as silly as the whole Casual vs Hardcore debate. Strictly speaking, a gamer is someone who plays games, regardless of genre, difficulty, or age bracket. Conversely, a programmer is strictly someone who implements code to be parsed by software, regardless of what the code is or what it is written on. It's just as silly to say that you're only a Gamer if you play hardcore FPSeses than to say you're only a Programmer if you can hack away at Assembler blindfolded.


Now, if we go into the philosophical issue of who consider themselves programmers as a self imposed label that defines them, then that's a different issue altogether (Which was what I meant with my original "you have to like it" post).



Also, technically a programmer is someone able to program a video recorder, or to decide the time slots for TV programs.  Roll Eyes

Offline Roquen
« Reply #73 - Posted 2012-08-02 13:40:52 »

I guess I don't qualify...no TV, no video recorders.
Offline Oskuro

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« Reply #74 - Posted 2012-08-02 13:54:32 »

Don't fret, programming a video recorder is an ancient art lost to the sands of time, only mastered by dedicated Tibetan monks and that weird aunt who couldn't miss her soaps.

Offline gimbal

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« Reply #75 - Posted 2012-08-02 15:35:29 »

Also, technically a programmer is someone able to program a video recorder, or to decide the time slots for TV programs.  Roll Eyes

Don't make me say computer software programmer each and every time on a website that deals with a subset of computer software programming Sad
Offline sproingie

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« Reply #76 - Posted 2012-08-02 17:18:35 »

This all reminds me of the pointless and lame hair-splitting attempts to precisely differentiate the terms "nerd" and "geek".

A programmer programs.  And by extension, if they're doing that, they're usually not obsessed with the classification of other people.


Offline princec

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« Reply #77 - Posted 2012-08-02 18:45:48 »

Making the computer do things by editing stuff is programming. It comes in many flavours and complexities, all the way from setting an alarm clock in Android - yes, that's programming it to do something - to fiddling with switches on a data bank programming machine code backwards in octal.

Cas Smiley

Offline Riven
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Hand over your head.


« Reply #78 - Posted 2012-08-02 19:06:01 »

Who are we trying to convince of what again? Stare

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Offline Roquen
« Reply #79 - Posted 2012-08-02 19:12:17 »

People to spend more time on the wiki.
Offline Oskuro

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« Reply #80 - Posted 2012-08-02 19:44:26 »

To me, the factual reality of what is or isn't a programmer (or any other classification by the way) is of little consequence.

The only place where it would be relevant, a job interview, will be heavily influenced by the conceptions/misconceptions of the HR person conducting the interview, so splitting hairs about the definition is pointless.


The interesting part, on the other hand, is the philosophical self-definition as "programmer", just as people who define themselves as "heavy", "vegan" or "Lady Gaga".

But that interest is merely on the philosophical discussion about it, the thing with these philosophical self-definitions is that there isn't really a right or wrong, so again it is pointless to fret about concrete definitions, as someone who believes themselves to be a programmer, even when all they do is data entry, will keep having their belief no matter how you try to prove otherwise.

What we choose to identify with is mostly a matter of opinion, and as such, can't really be argued away.


Also, while I'm not saying you can get a job as a programmer just because you define yourself as such (That's what I meant with the first two paragraphs about relevance to job interviews) the ironic truth is that it is possible to just bluff your way through an interview and land the job, and even keep it if you can manage faking it. So much for definitions.

(On the other sad hand, and I speak from experience, HR  reps that don't know what they are talking about can disregard actual valid candidates just because they somehow think that "programmer" means "living encyclopedia of all things computer that should be able to solve college level tests on a whim" or, even more sadly, "electrician")

Offline matheus23

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« Reply #81 - Posted 2012-08-02 19:47:05 »

(On the other sad hand, and I speak from experience, HR  reps that don't know what they are talking about can disregard actual valid candidates just because they somehow think that "programmer" means "living encyclopedia of all things computer that should be able to solve college level tests on a whim" or, even more sadly, "electrician")
TRUE!

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Offline ReBirth
« Reply #82 - Posted 2012-08-03 01:47:28 »

You all should listen to me. Programmer is someone who solve (digital) problems! Cool

Offline keldon85

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« Reply #83 - Posted 2012-08-03 05:27:10 »

Hmm, I think we computer programmers, computer scientists, software engineers and co. have a lot in common with theoretical lexicographers in that we pretty much exercise that skill when we have to invent names for routines, design patterns, classes, frameworks and the like.

How does a dictionary and lexicography translate to the world of programming? Well they contain words that detail actions, relations of heuristic measurement, logical classification of realities and provides a framework for making sense of the world. Imagine if you removed all words that could make it possible to communicate your innocence in a court of law? Well, if you observe William Shakespeare, when he didn't have an existing word to use he would invent one (or borrow one from another language). If you alter the language of a person you in a sense alter the way he sees within and thinks of the world ...

... So lexicographers are like covert programmers for the human psyche, and programmers are lexicographers and poets to the compiler Cheesy

Offline Damocles
« Reply #84 - Posted 2012-08-03 06:23:45 »

What I find funny, is that the ordinary layman person thinks that a programmer
must be very good in math.
Higher Math is only needed for specific projects (Vector graphics, physics simulations)
Most other problems are usually basic math at school level.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #85 - Posted 2012-08-03 07:30:02 »

What I find funny, is that the ordinary layman person thinks that a programmer
must be very good in math.
Higher Math is only needed for specific projects (Vector graphics, physics simulations)
Most other problems are usually basic math at school level.
Actually, non trivial maths allow a programmer to avoid making some mistakes, think about the representation of floats and doubles for example.

I have worked as an engineer in computer science for five years and we expect from us more than just coding but even a basic developer should have some advanced notions of maths. In my humble opinion, only very basic web design requires extremely basic math learned at school level.

Offline princec

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« Reply #86 - Posted 2012-08-03 07:48:50 »

I don't think I even used a float until 2004.

Cas Smiley

Offline gimbal

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« Reply #87 - Posted 2012-08-03 08:01:33 »

they somehow think that "programmer" means "living encyclopedia of all things computer that should be able to solve college level tests on a whim"

Oooh I'm going to remember that one. Any company I apply to that allows people that think like this to do the interviews is a company I don't want to work for (because they're uncaring gits that just do stuff without thinking), but now I have something to close the interview with before I get up, turn around and stroll away. Thanks!
Offline Damocles
« Reply #88 - Posted 2012-08-03 08:05:59 »

A float is that number thing with commas,
A double is the bigger number thing with commas.

When you need to do that comma stuff you can use a float.

Offline ra4king

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« Reply #89 - Posted 2012-08-03 08:10:05 »

Ha! You must live outside the US Grin

Here, they use a period instead of comma Tongue

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