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  Does really game development on Java suck? Why are we still here?  (Read 49126 times)
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Offline Roquen
« Reply #180 - Posted 2012-04-18 13:21:32 »

Visual Studio's native code debugger is pretty top of the line IHMO.   semi-programmable break-points for CPU? Check.   Need to debug GPU code? Check. GPU assem? Check. (plugin in current version, native in next) The next version looks pretty sweet for game development BTW.  I think eclipse's worst feature is probably debugging.  This is all apples and oranges.
Offline PaulCunningham

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« Reply #181 - Posted 2012-04-18 17:45:05 »

I recreated all of the Shaven Puppy Game Library rendering pipeline in XNA in less than an hour.
Offline ra4king

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« Reply #182 - Posted 2012-04-18 17:57:11 »

Eclipse > Visual Studio hands down. If you disagree, you haven't used either enough.


Come on dude, you can't seriously mean that. You're screaming "My opinion is fact!" here, I can't believe that you seriously go there.

I've used both, extensively. There is no better IDE environment than Visual Studio, not even close. In my opinion.
Nah it's fact bro Tongue

Eclipse > Visual Studio hands down. If you disagree, you haven't used either enough.


Come on dude, you can't seriously mean that. You're screaming "My opinion is fact!" here, I can't believe that you seriously go there.

I've used both, extensively. There is no better IDE environment than Visual Studio, not even close. In my opinion.

That's interesting.  I've used Visual Studio since the mid 1990's and I think that Netbeans and Eclipse are both better development environments.  Obbviously YMMV

For Java dev stuff I certainly agree Smiley

This line of discussion is a bit pointless really, I mean humans have evolved to the point where you can have COD VS Battlefield "camps"... emotional attachments to something as silly as a game :/
Fact: Battlefield > COD, games are not silly -___-

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« Reply #183 - Posted 2012-04-18 18:02:23 »

@ra4king: you might have confused this topic with one on the 'Miscellaneous Topics' board. Thanks for your understanding!

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Offline ra4king

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« Reply #184 - Posted 2012-04-18 18:03:54 »

@ra4king: you might have confused this board with 'Miscellaneous Topics'. Thanks for your understanding!
Kiss

Offline gimbal

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« Reply #185 - Posted 2012-04-19 10:41:22 »

@ra4king: you might have confused this topic with one on the 'Miscellaneous Topics' board. Thanks for your understanding!

Meh, its a broad subject. A discussion of alternatives for using Java (or why Java is a better choice) and the development tools involved is not off-topic IMO, just a logical evolution of the thread given its subject title.

I've learned today that you can be very productive by using C# and XNA; people have done it, then so can I and even ra4king can once he gets over himself Wink BUT. I still love Java, I see doing proper games using Java as a personal challenge that adds a whole lot of fun to the hobby. I won't be lured away by stories of epic success using other technologies!
Offline princec

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« Reply #186 - Posted 2012-04-19 14:00:24 »

I'm still using Java because I don't need to change and don't foresee any need to change.

Cas Smiley

Offline Seismo

Junior Newbie





« Reply #187 - Posted 2012-04-19 16:18:38 »

So what's the result? Im just stepping into game development, doing some slick tutorials and stuff. So far i like it, even if i don't really know how to distribute the game yet. Should i stick with java or should i switch to unity? Tongue
Offline Roquen
« Reply #188 - Posted 2012-04-19 16:36:49 »

Ha. Like all game (and almost all CS) related questions...the answer is:  it depends.  Where are you at? And where are you going? And what do you want to learn along the way?
Offline Seismo

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« Reply #189 - Posted 2012-04-19 16:40:49 »

I'm at the beginning. I got some programming experience in C++, C#, Java and some other unimportant languages. I wanna make money with game development independently. And i wanna learn as much about game development as i can. Including Marketing and Distribution. Is Java the right choice for me?
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Offline princec

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« Reply #190 - Posted 2012-04-19 16:56:40 »

Hm if you want to make money with games quickly you'd genuinely be better off with Unity at this point in time, which has greater reach and more consistent focus on delivering games. Java hasn't got that dedication to games; it's more generally useful for general purpose programming.

The only reason I use Java for games is because I used Java to earn a living for years before I got into making games. That meant I was already pretty good at coding in Java, and while I was rubbish at making games, I still earned a living using Java in the meantime.

Cas Smiley

Offline Seismo

Junior Newbie





« Reply #191 - Posted 2012-04-19 17:02:43 »

Thanks a lot princec Smiley
Offline philfrei
« Reply #192 - Posted 2012-04-19 23:16:57 »

Downside of using any framework: hard to break out of the frame.

If the games you are envisioning are like other Unity games, then by all means use Unity.

"Greetings my friends! We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives!" -- The Amazing Criswell
Offline ReBirth
« Reply #193 - Posted 2012-04-19 23:30:53 »

Simply use Java because love it, dunno why problem it a lot.

Offline gene9

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« Reply #194 - Posted 2012-04-20 00:36:28 »

Eclipse > Visual Studio hands down. If you disagree, you haven't used either enough.


Come on dude, you can't seriously mean that. You're screaming "My opinion is fact!" here, I can't believe that you seriously go there.

I've used both, extensively. There is no better IDE environment than Visual Studio, not even close. In my opinion.


Both JVM/.NET have lots of specific technical ups and downs, but the major differentiating factor is the community. On the JVM side, Oracle's blessing means nothing, non-Oracle technologies thrive everywhere, and technologies are constantly debated and thrive or perish on their own technical merits. On the .NET side, there is less willingness to experiment at the software infrastructure level, and much less tolerance for something that doesn't have Microsoft's endorsement. There are exceptions of course, I've met a few completely rogue .NET open source people, but I've worked at lots of .NET only jobs and I know lots of .NET oriented developers and the overall culture has been very hesitant to use or even acknowledge non-Microsoft products.

Look at the independent languages like Scala, Clojure, and Fantom that targeted both .NET and JVM: The JVM crowd seems far more eager to embrace and adopt them (and endlessly argue about it) based on their merits. The .NET community mostly ignores anything unless it's promoted by Microsoft. jQuery is a good example of a non-Microsoft technology that's endorsed by Microsoft (I think it's bundled with Visual Studio now) and is widely adopted by the .NET crowd.

Just to clarify, most programmers are independent people. The average game developer who uses .NET is an independent person, and many of them make brilliant stuff, but the larger community is less likely to use or even consider a non-endorsed technology even if it's .NET compatable such as Scala/Clojure/Fantom.

And also, if you like .NET or Visual Studio, you should definitely use what you like. You should explore for yourself, make up your own mind, etc. I don't want to hate on anyone's favorite toolset, but I wanted to articulate the main attraction of the JVM development toolset better than the other people on this forum.
Offline gimbal

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« Reply #195 - Posted 2012-04-20 01:39:30 »

Some very good points there dude. I do object to you quoting me with a story mostly about .NET - I don't like .NET much at all, I only like Visual Studio Wink

> but I've worked at lots of .NET only jobs and I know lots of .NET oriented developers and the overall culture has been very hesitant to use or even acknowledge non-Microsoft products.
Not entirely a bad thing in an office environment. When you get new people or you hire in external help, you have more of a chance of the developers being productive sooner. But yeah, what is more hazy is what type of people you are getting. Do they know what they are talking about, or do they just do what Microsoft tells them to do and not think much about the why? Even in .NET projects, I wouldn't want the people who don't ask the hard questions, even when the tech makes it easier to not worry about it.
Offline gene9

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« Reply #196 - Posted 2012-04-20 04:28:27 »

I'm at the beginning. I got some programming experience in C++, C#, Java and some other unimportant languages. I wanna make money with game development independently. And i wanna learn as much about game development as i can. Including Marketing and Distribution. Is Java the right choice for me?

I think Java is great if you want a bare OpenGL programming layer and you want to target Win/Mac/Linux/Android and want to be spared the legacy and drudgery of C/C++.

If you want a higher level game engine, you should shop there. Higher level engines may push certain structure on you and may take away some of the fun of building but it can also give you a lot of polished lower level implementation so you can focus more on the more unique pieces of your game.

Another advantage of Java is you can transition to the higher level elegant languages such as Scala or Kotlin when you feel comfortable.

Additionally, I'd caution against indie game development as a career track. It's great for those that succeed, but I'd argue there is a high failure and unhappiness rate.
Offline gene9

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« Reply #197 - Posted 2012-04-20 04:39:05 »

Some very good points there dude. I do object to you quoting me with a story mostly about .NET - I don't like .NET much at all, I only like Visual Studio Wink


Fair enough Smiley

My top Visual Studio gripes Smiley

They get most major features _waaay_ later than the Java IDEs. Every major Java IDE had integrated unit testing support back in the '90s. Visual Studio didn't get that until 2008 or 2010.

Less support for various third party technologies. IntelliJ supports _everything_! Does Visual Studio even have built in support for Git and Mercurial yet or do you still need to get third party add ons working?

Visual Studio still uses proprietary and typically machine generated project/solution files. Most Java devs prefer having elegant hand-coded Maven/Gradle build files that the IDEs read from and work off of. The advantages are huge. They work better with source control, they allow more precise control over your build, and allow you to easily swap IDEs or drop IDEs on a dime, or integrate with various build and process management tools.
Offline gimbal

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« Reply #198 - Posted 2012-04-20 10:05:09 »

... and you raise some more valid points. Especially the lack of unit testing support was a pretty dismal brain-flatulence on the part of the MS designers.

Quote
Visual Studio still uses proprietary and typically machine generated project/solution files. Most Java devs prefer having elegant hand-coded Maven/Gradle build files that the IDEs read from and work off of. The advantages are huge. They work better with source control, they allow more precise control over your build, and allow you to easily swap IDEs or drop IDEs on a dime, or integrate with various build and process management tools.
That one, although from a Java dev perspective quite valid, doesn't fly where Visual Studio is concerned. Remember the Microsoft creed: you do it our way, or you're a communist Wink Visual Studio is exactly designed according to what Microsoft believes and tries to enforce through solutions such as .NET: you don't need other tools. So why build in stuff that would make it easy for people to move away?

Quote
Another advantage of Java is you can transition to the higher level elegant languages such as Scala or Kotlin when you feel comfortable.
He he, that one made me chuckle Smiley "Transition to a higher level", quite a unique way to put it Smiley I can't agree that moving to a newer JVM language is transitioning up though, to me its transitioning sideways. The Java language is old and that is why people like to pick on it. Not me, its my dependable chum with which I still get the job done, fast fresh & simple.
Offline princec

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« Reply #199 - Posted 2012-04-20 11:32:50 »

I was about to post a big rant about unit testing being a complete waste of time and fixing broken design by papering over the cracks with tests etc etc but realised that this would derail the thread completely so I shall start a new thread on it Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #200 - Posted 2012-04-20 11:36:45 »

I was actually think about starting a generalized rant thread...just to see where it goes.

Derailing a thread here?  What's the percentage of threads not derailed I wonder?

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Offline gimbal

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« Reply #201 - Posted 2012-04-20 13:07:33 »

I'm still using Java because I don't need to change and don't foresee any need to change.

Cas Smiley

pedantic kiss-ass: I consider you one of the heroes of Java for having managed to get a Java based game on Steam. My hat off to you sir.
Offline princec

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« Reply #202 - Posted 2012-04-20 14:11:11 »

I'm still using Java because I don't need to change and don't foresee any need to change.

Cas Smiley

pedantic kiss-ass: I consider you one of the heroes of Java for having managed to get a Java based game on Steam. My hat off to you sir.
There are actually quite a few Java games on Steam. But wisely, no-one advertises the fact Smiley Says something doesn't it? But then again nobody goes on and on about how their game is made in C++ either.

Cas Smiley

Offline gimbal

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« Reply #203 - Posted 2012-04-20 14:21:58 »

I'm still using Java because I don't need to change and don't foresee any need to change.

Cas Smiley

pedantic kiss-ass: I consider you one of the heroes of Java for having managed to get a Java based game on Steam. My hat off to you sir.
There are actually quite a few Java games on Steam. But wisely, no-one advertises the fact Smiley Says something doesn't it? But then again nobody goes on and on about how their game is made in C++ either.

Cas Smiley

Well Carmack did go on about how he preferred C to C++ (or Java) for a very long time. Borderline case though.

You got me curious, I'll have to research which other games are Java based. You can still keep the accolade since you're the only one on JGO I know that managed it Wink
Offline princec

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« Reply #204 - Posted 2012-04-20 14:33:56 »

Well, there's 2 of mine (soon 4), Blocks that Matter from Swing Swing Submarine, Spiral Knights from ThreeRings... er that's the only ones I can think of right now. Minecraft would have been on Steam but Markus turned them down.

Cas Smiley

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« Reply #205 - Posted 2012-04-20 14:57:11 »

Well, there's 2 of mine (soon 4), Blocks that Matter from Swing Swing Submarine, Spiral Knights from ThreeRings... er that's the only ones I can think of right now.
Theres Altitude, Bumbledore, Project Zomboid (will be there soon), Starfarer (will probably be there too).

Other quality games include Wakfu, Transformers Universe, etc. There are quiet a few these days.
Offline VeaR

Junior Member





« Reply #206 - Posted 2012-04-21 01:10:37 »

Having read trough this thread, it is a good description of state of Java gaming in 2012. Problems seem to be still the same as years before.

I started learning D. It has some less elegant naming conventions than Java, and has its own fetishes, but it has all the features i missed in Java so much. Reading trough the languages book and reading about a feature i remember how much i wanted to have that feature in Java. And when the author details why some feature was added, and that reason is exactly the reason i wanted that feature in Java too, well, those are the details that sell me the language. I see that there will be problems with D too, the user base is much less than for Java, and there is currently only one IDE that has the quality and features (D plugin for Visual Studio).

Some example features:
Static is per thread static, not for the whole application. No fiddling with ThreadLocal, no messing up data of other threads, and no per-object overheads as a last resort.
Bound checks can be disabled on a per-module basis.
GC for objects, but structs can be constructed on stack or wherever needed. Also true arrays of structs, thus optimizing for the CPU cache.
Initialization can be deferred to the constructor, or completely disabled, thus reducing object initialization overhead. There was (probably its like that even now) a situation in Java, where allocating and GC-ing an object was cheap, but the initialization was expensive. That has defeated much of the proposed patterns for having immutable objects, etc. D lets you control the object initialization.

The nice thing is that much of all safety guards of Java are available in D too, but you can manually disable it on specific places.

Then there are the features inherited from C++, of which you are not required to use the unsafe ones if you don't want them. Pointers are a marginal feature in D, you can use iterators and references instead.

Offline sproingie

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« Reply #207 - Posted 2012-04-21 01:22:50 »

I really want to like D, it has some great ideas in it, but holy cow is the whole ecosystem around it a fantastic mess.  You've got the Tango/Phobos mess, and it's not so much just "choose one for your project" as "don't even dream of getting DSSS working with both".  And the windows toolchain is beyond horrific, using an obsolete object format that even Microsoft found to be too complex, baroque, and brittle. 
Offline VeaR

Junior Member





« Reply #208 - Posted 2012-04-21 01:50:01 »

I really want to like D, it has some great ideas in it, but holy cow is the whole ecosystem around it a fantastic mess.  You've got the Tango/Phobos mess, and it's not so much just "choose one for your project" as "don't even dream of getting DSSS working with both".  And the windows toolchain is beyond horrific, using an obsolete object format that even Microsoft found to be too complex, baroque, and brittle. 

I think the Tango/Phobos exclusiveness was for D v1. Everyone is using D v2, which has Phobos as the system library and Tango is optional (built on top of Phobos), so you can use both at the same time. But i'm not planning on touching Tango, i would prefer a minimalist JDK-like library (for the sake of already knowing what is where), even if i have to write (collect) parts of it myself.

The Visual Studio plugin is quite nice. I had previously tried and dismissed D multiple times because of the lack of an IDE, but this one is working out for me so far.

The object symbol file is converted to MS format, so now integrated IDE debugging is working. This was another deal breaker previously.

I think a lot of people are waiting for D to be included into GCC core (which is in preparation, tho going slowly). When that happens, D will have all the benefit of GCC guaranteed, and the issue of developer tools will go away. The D plugin for Visual Studio has just started supporting the GCC D, and not everything is working. But there may be an LLVM D too. I don't see the multiple compilers issue as a mess. This language is constantly evolving, and there will be a time when D v2 stabilizes to one implementation. Just as more than a decade ago for Java there were a lot of JVM's, but we ended up today with practically one. As long as the SDL/OpenGL bindings are up to date, which seems to be, i don't care for the rest.
Offline anemo

Junior Newbie





« Reply #209 - Posted 2012-04-27 21:19:26 »

At the scale an indy game developer works it is it really even possible for language to become a more limiting factor, than say time invested on raw optimization?

I can't really see it being a factor.
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