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  Why so much confusion over Java3D?  (Read 10250 times)
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Offline zngga
« Posted 2012-03-08 01:20:18 »

There seems to be a lot of confusion over Java3D, mainly in how one implements it into their preferred IDE, and how to deploy it to end users. Perhaps this is why, in comparison to other 3D graphics libraries for java, this one doesn't fare to well in the popularity contest.

Anyway, to my question; what makes Java3D different than other graphics libraries, LWJGL comes to mind. Why can't you simply add Java3D to a projects class path like you would with any other 3rd party library. Personally I prefer the Eclipse IDE, and adding jars to the class path is very easy. Even adding LWJGL was a breeze, add the jars, and reference the natives folder for your operating system. What makes Java3D different in a way that forces developers, and end users alike, to go through a complicated installation process?

If what I mentioned above is not true, and you can simply add Java3D to a projects the class path (and distribute a fully working .jar), why is this method not documented, well known, or even mentioned?

Finally, how would one deploy an application / applet with this library, if in fact it needs to be 'installed' as the documentation says. Would one have to tell end users, "Wait! You have to download, and install this before you can even play my game!" which to a person new to java, or someone who knows nothing of programming and only wants to play your game, this may seem overwhelming.

Let me finish by clarifying that I don't need a 'tutorial' on installing Java3D, I am simply bringing up some questions for discussion that haven't been addressed elsewhere to my knowledge.

My code never has bugs... it just develops unexpected features!
Offline sproingie
« Reply #1 - Posted 2012-03-08 02:29:14 »

It doesn't help that Java3D is dead.  It's being kept alive in some forks here and there by independent devs, but as an official project, or anything going beyond pure maintenance by said devs, it's run down the curtain, shuffled off this mortal coil, and joined the choir invisible.

As for it coming in a big cumbersome installer, that's just how "system-wide" software for Windows platforms gets distributed for end-user installation.  LWJGL doesn't have this conceit of installing globally, and aims squarely at developers who will bundle lwjgl with their app instead.

Offline zngga
« Reply #2 - Posted 2012-03-08 02:44:40 »

No it certainly doesn't. I was just curious about the differences and reasons why. I'm a programmer, question everything, you understand, haha!

My code never has bugs... it just develops unexpected features!
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Offline ra4king

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Medals: 322
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I'm the King!


« Reply #3 - Posted 2012-03-08 02:48:55 »

It's best to just leave Java3D in its measly grave and use more mature libraries. LWJGL is not a graphics library, it is only a simple binding to OpenGL. An equivalent to Java3D would be JMonkeyEngine, Ardor3D, or libGDX, all of which use LWJGL underneath to access OpenGL.

Offline tom
« Reply #4 - Posted 2012-03-08 09:36:55 »

Java3D is exactly like all other projects. Download the zip binaries from here: http://java3d.java.net/binary-builds.html and put the jar files to the class path and the native files in java.library.path.

Sure, there is also an installer. I think there are historical reasons why it exists. Java3D is really old and back in the day it was common practice to put the libraries in the jre. At least the official sun ones. This was never a good idea, and now we know better.

Offline zngga
« Reply #5 - Posted 2012-03-08 22:49:05 »

It is too bad that Java3D is dead, or perhaps not, seeing that there are much better solutions now. I do like the libraries implementation though, it has the same feel as Java SE (for obvious reasons) I suppose one could develop an engine over top of LWJGL to accomplish the same intuitive java like methods while still accessing openGL.

All I am saying is that I prefer this:

Model model = new Model(obj loader);
gl.drawModel(model, x, x, z);

opposed to this:

pushMatrix();
begin(gl_quads);
... vertexes
end();
popMatrix();

the above is pseudo code of course.

Perhaps my next long term project will be creating something like that...

My code never has bugs... it just develops unexpected features!
Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 322
Projects: 2
Exp: 4 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #6 - Posted 2012-03-08 23:12:59 »

There are libraries that achieve that kind of code Wink

Offline sproingie
« Reply #7 - Posted 2012-03-08 23:18:24 »

jMonkeyEngine and Ardor3D are two engines you should look into for high level work.  LWJGL is raw OpenGL, much lower level.
Offline zngga
« Reply #8 - Posted 2012-03-09 00:34:25 »

I have used JME3, I find it to be very bloated... not necessarily a bad thing if you need all of those features, but I like to keep things simple. not to mention the complete lack of documentation if you choose not to use their SDK. Come to think about it, most engines have a lack of documentation. Currently I am working with JPCT. It is pretty intuitive once you know what classes to use, but again there is a serious lack of useful documentation. I have literally spent entire days just looking at the java doc!

My code never has bugs... it just develops unexpected features!
Offline gouessej

« In padded room »



TUER


« Reply #9 - Posted 2012-03-26 23:43:38 »

Hi

Sorry to refresh this thread. Java3D is not dead and we already plan to implement some new features, we won't provide only maintenance releases.

JPCT is closed source which does not help especially because the lack of documentation. When an open source engine lacks of doc and tutorials, you can still look at its source code to understand how it works. Ardor3D has a very few tutorials but the Java documentation is quite good and it's provided with a lot of simple examples and with a few moderately complicated examples. I used one of them as a starting point to port my game from JMonkeyEngine to Ardor3D.

Edit.: JOGL renderers are available for all engines and middle-level APIs ra4king listed except JMonkeyEngine 3 (JMonkeyEngine 2 works fine with mine).

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Offline zngga
« Reply #10 - Posted 2012-03-27 04:14:47 »

Java3D is not dead...

update to 1.6 and then I might take another look at it, haha!

My code never has bugs... it just develops unexpected features!
Offline gouessej

« In padded room »



TUER


« Reply #11 - Posted 2012-04-05 22:34:19 »

Java3D is not dead...

update to 1.6 and then I might take another look at it, haha!
What is fun in what you said? Keep in mind that I work on it on my spare time. It already works with Java 1.6. What do you mean exactly? The next release will be called Java3D 2.0 if I make some major changes in the public API.

Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 70
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #12 - Posted 2012-04-05 23:42:53 »

The next release will be called Java3D 2.0 if I make some major changes in the public API.
Do remember to get permission from Oracle before using their trademark Smiley
Offline zngga
« Reply #13 - Posted 2012-04-06 00:24:42 »

Java3D is not dead...

update to 1.6 and then I might take another look at it, haha!
What is fun in what you said? Keep in mind that I work on it on my spare time. It already works with Java 1.6. What do you mean exactly? The next release will be called Java3D 2.0 if I make some major changes in the public API.

I sense that you took offence to what I said, let me assure you that I meant none.

My code never has bugs... it just develops unexpected features!
Offline gouessej

« In padded room »



TUER


« Reply #14 - Posted 2012-04-06 01:04:04 »

The next release will be called Java3D 2.0 if I make some major changes in the public API.
Do remember to get permission from Oracle before using their trademark Smiley
At first, I'm not liable for this project. I'm not a lawyer, I see what you mean. JOGL already existed before Sun Microsystems invested in it whereas the situation is a bit different with Java3D.

@Harvey Maybe you will have to find another name for this scenegraph.

Java3D is not dead...

update to 1.6 and then I might take another look at it, haha!
What is fun in what you said? Keep in mind that I work on it on my spare time. It already works with Java 1.6. What do you mean exactly? The next release will be called Java3D 2.0 if I make some major changes in the public API.

I sense that you took offence to what I said, let me assure you that I meant none.
Ok, sorry, maybe I overreacted.

Offline hharrison

Senior Newbie





« Reply #15 - Posted 2012-05-04 08:07:52 »

@Harvey Maybe you will have to find another name for this scenegraph.


Got any good ideas for a name?

In any event, I finally got the java3d offscreen rendering going, so I'm likely going to start running the jogl2
backend in my day-to-day use @work.....thanks again for the roadmap (and patches) to get it converted.

Harvey
Offline Nate

JGO Kernel


Medals: 129
Projects: 3
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #16 - Posted 2012-05-04 08:59:21 »

I sense that you took offence to what I said, let me assure you that I meant none.
Ok, sorry, maybe I overreacted.
Blah, what kind of flame war is that? This is the Internet. You guys are doing it wrong!

Offline theagentd
« Reply #17 - Posted 2012-05-04 09:59:06 »

I sense that you took offence to what I said, let me assure you that I meant none.
Ok, sorry, maybe I overreacted.
Blah, what kind of flame war is that? This is the Internet. You guys are doing it wrong!
Hahahahahahaha...! Here, have a medal for that one! XD

Myomyomyo.
Online Roquen
« Reply #18 - Posted 2012-05-04 10:35:20 »

Blah, what kind of flame war is that? This is the Internet. You guys are doing it wrong!
I'll help out.  Scenegraphs = good for art-like packages.  Scenegraphs = worst way on the planet for simulations.  Any better?
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #19 - Posted 2012-05-04 11:10:52 »

Nah, not controversial enough.

SCENEGRAPHS ARE AN ABOMINATION AGAINST ALLAH.

Cas Smiley

Offline nsigma
« Reply #20 - Posted 2012-05-04 11:13:25 »

Nah, not controversial enough.

SCENEGRAPHS ARE AN ABOMINATION AGAINST ALLAH.

Cas Smiley

Care to draw a cartoon to illustrate your point?  Grin

Praxis LIVE - open-source intermedia toolkit and live interactive visual editor
Digital Prisoners - interactive spaces and projections
Online Roquen
« Reply #21 - Posted 2012-05-04 11:17:25 »

Quote
Nah, not controversial enough.
I'll try harder next time.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #22 - Posted 2012-05-04 11:19:19 »

Nah, not controversial enough.

SCENEGRAPHS ARE AN ABOMINATION AGAINST ALLAH.

Cas Smiley

Care to draw a cartoon to illustrate your point?  Grin
nsigma wins the thread!

Cas Smiley

Online Roquen
« Reply #23 - Posted 2012-05-04 11:20:04 »

The best thing about scenegraphs for simulations is:

And everything else sucks.

Better?
Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 322
Projects: 2
Exp: 4 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #24 - Posted 2012-05-04 16:30:23 »



Grin

Offline theagentd
« Reply #25 - Posted 2012-05-04 17:04:20 »

In the holy name of whatever diety programmers believe in I hereby announce a crusade to purge the world of ra4king (see? I got your name right this time!). Every man and woman must commision their computer to this holy task. Under my command the computers will then valiantly travel across the internet and then heroically strike down this abomination with a divine DDOS attack. May the Gods guide all our bytes.

}.

Myomyomyo.
Online Roquen
« Reply #26 - Posted 2012-05-04 17:19:49 »

Fortunately for ra4king, the scenegraph fanboys have never made any money so the bounty currently stands at 2 red rupees.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #27 - Posted 2012-05-04 17:35:33 »

Now, see, ra4king, bless his naive soul, has actually committed a genuine offence now by actually depicting imagery of Allah.

Cas Smiley

Offline theagentd
« Reply #28 - Posted 2012-05-04 18:09:52 »

Now, see, ra4king, bless his naive soul, has actually committed a genuine offence now by actually depicting imagery of Allah.

Cas Smiley
Blam, headshot! You just shot the messenger! I clearly doubt that ra4king made that image himself just now. Anyway, just to be sure, let´s say that that is a picture of God´s secret brother. You know, the guy who actually coded the world in 7 days while God was waving his arms believing he was the one doing it. xD

Myomyomyo.
Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 322
Projects: 2
Exp: 4 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #29 - Posted 2012-05-04 18:29:27 »

Hahahahahahaahaa I'm dying Grin

That image is from memegenerator Smiley

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