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Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 336
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #30 - Posted 2012-01-19 07:19:31 »

Grumble grumble how do I embed youtube videos in this chatty-gizmotron pinup-board thing again?
http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/username-change/25170/msg/216346/view.html#msg216346

Put "www.youtube.com/v/VIDEO_CODE" inside the flash tag Wink

Congress should be dissolved, all laws negated, and start from scratch.
YES

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #31 - Posted 2012-01-19 10:08:59 »

What gets me is how the US are trying to drag the rest of the world into managing their domestic political affairs. I can't stress this highly enough but apart from being nothing to do with us, most of the rest of the world find it ethically challenging to perform a "dirty" protest against a foreign government's domestic affairs. (The US, of course, famously doesn't find it ethically challenging, which goes a long way to explaining how this rather crazy state of affairs has come about).

I always enjoy sticking my neck out with an opinion that everyone else flames, but I don't do it naively or just to wind people up.

Bottom line is, for me, SOPA is not really a bad thing. With any luck if (by some quirk of democracy) this bill gets passed in the Senate then hopefully a few European - or even UK! - rivals will spring up to fill the void. So hurrah for us.

Cas Smiley

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 50
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #32 - Posted 2012-01-19 10:19:26 »

What gets me is how the US are trying to drag the rest of the world into managing their domestic political affairs. I can't stress this highly enough but apart from being nothing to do with us, most of the rest of the world find it ethically challenging to perform a "dirty" protest against a foreign government's domestic affairs. (The US, of course, famously doesn't find it ethically challenging, which goes a long way to explaining how this rather crazy state of affairs has come about).

I always enjoy sticking my neck out with an opinion that everyone else flames, but I don't do it naively or just to wind people up.

Bottom line is, for me, SOPA is not really a bad thing. With any luck if (by some quirk of democracy) this bill gets passed in the Senate then hopefully a few European - or even UK! - rivals will spring up to fill the void. So hurrah for us.

Cas Smiley
The fact of the matter is that if the bill passes, it will become illegal to link to sites referring to "illegal material". It's hard to imagine how any internet company is supposed to operate under those restrictions. I mean, good bye Google.

Most likely a bulk of the internet companies in the U.S. will emigrate out of U.S. jurisdiction. But then again, U.S. does control ICANN, so google.com could be confiscated. And that's where I worry about region-splitting of the internet, Europe would create it's own ICANN level agency, and Google could register there. But I guess that wouldn't be any better, because it will always be under politicians control.

Perhaps we'll be run underground with our internet, like people in the Soviet union were run underground with their political beliefs. In 10-20 years it will even be illegal to own a computer, because you might be pirating. That's where we're heading? How far will this go?

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Offline delt0r

JGO Knight


Medals: 26
Exp: 18 years


Computers can do that?


« Reply #33 - Posted 2012-01-19 10:53:34 »

Well a distributed version of DNS  can be done and there is even one out there now based off cash hashing aka bitcoin (different set of coins). However it can be even easier. Locally we can just stop using US top level name servers... cut them out of the loop and just have EU nameservers or something, even US folks could use them.

Either way if such a thing was really needed, alternatives would happen pretty fast. I think sometimes people forget that the internet is run by lots of *people*. We a very adaptable and can be very inventive when the need arises. 

BTW in NZ we had the 3 strikes law pushed through under emergency powers granted to deal with the Christchurch earthquake. What the hell does copyright have to do with a frikken earthquake.

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #34 - Posted 2012-01-19 10:55:12 »

No, that's not going to happen. Just scaremongering. As far as linking to infringing content is concerned - as if I care. I could do with Google being taken to task over it. Have a look at the situation from four perspectives:

US based IP holders
Non-US based IP holders
US based, er, "non-IP-holders"
Non-US based "non-IP-holders"

Now Google for a torrent of the full version of Revenge of the Titans. Which group do I fall into and what do you think I'd like Google to do about it?

The way I see it is that the internet was like one big Woodstock. The drugs are wearing off now and everyone's got to go back to work.

Cas Smiley

Offline delt0r

JGO Knight


Medals: 26
Exp: 18 years


Computers can do that?


« Reply #35 - Posted 2012-01-19 11:21:25 »

While I totally support the view that piracy does not help authors or game writers at all. I also believe that there is *no* amount of laws that will fix or even deter all that much piracy.

So as developers (ok so I haven't released anything..Yet) I think we just have to accept the reality of the internet and the reality of piracy. We cannot stop it, as indies devs we can't afford to use whatever legal frameworks the big corps push, so either we need fans that pay anyway, or we need to work some clean almost not DRM, DRM. In particular I think always online type games are going to be our longer term future.

Personally i don't really like it all that much. But i would prefer this to some "pirate tax" that then get distributed like broadcasting copyrights do (aka legal cartel). Since we are small we will never be fairly represented this way anyway. And even if we are I hate the idea of government supported "art".

I also want some sane copyright terms. Life + 50 years or whatever, is just plain ridiculous. 

And don't get me started on patents.

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 50
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #36 - Posted 2012-01-19 11:55:26 »

No, that's not going to happen. Just scaremongering. As far as linking to infringing content is concerned - as if I care. I could do with Google being taken to task over it. Have a look at the situation from four perspectives:

US based IP holders
Non-US based IP holders
US based, er, "non-IP-holders"
Non-US based "non-IP-holders"

Now Google for a torrent of the full version of Revenge of the Titans. Which group do I fall into and what do you think I'd like Google to do about it?

The way I see it is that the internet was like one big Woodstock. The drugs are wearing off now and everyone's got to go back to work.

Cas Smiley
You have my sympathy over RoTT being pirated, but do everyone else deserve to lose their freedoms over it?

I see piracy from two angles. There's the unjustifiable one, and then there's the justifiable one.

RoTT being pirated is unjustifiable, because anyone can actually purchase it legally online without hassle, and you're not withholding it from anyone.

However, when it comes to content like movies and TV shows, I know from own experience being located in remote Iceland that trying to watch your favorite TV show means you have to resort to something ... filthy as bit torrents. TV shows are usually shown a year late here, in reduced quality because the couple of broadcast channels here still broadcast in SD, and they don't even broadcast 10% of the shows available to the American public. So, I cannot view my favorite TV show here legally, and I cannot purchase it legally, it's made inaccessible to me because of the distribution model. If I try to access sites that allow Americans to watch the shows online for free (like Hulu) I get "Sorry, you're not in the frigging United State". Even trailers are made inaccessible to me because of my geographical location.

So, pirating content from someone withholding it is fully justifiable in my mind. Unfortunately, this is the case in (probably) majority of the torrent traffic. This is the studios/distributors/copyright holders own fault for sticking to an outdated distribution in the digital age, they could be streaming this online, they could be selling all those TV shows online on Youtube for couple of bucks a piece and make much more money off of it than they do today. But they don't, because they think in regions, countries, broadcast channels, distribution rights, etc. etc. The internet doesn't care about that, and that's why they hate the internet.

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Offline StonePickaxes

JGO Coder


Medals: 4
Projects: 2


Nathan Kramber


« Reply #37 - Posted 2012-01-19 15:14:35 »

Thought I should add, my computer teacher just said she was in favor of SOPA.

-Nathan

Check out my website!
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #38 - Posted 2012-01-19 20:03:30 »

Appel, I don't think you made a very good defence there.

Cas Smiley

Offline aazimon
« Reply #39 - Posted 2012-01-19 20:08:12 »

   From what I'm seeing in the responses, many people are making assumptions what these bills (SOPA & PIPA) are, and making quick knee-jerk reactions. (which isn't unexpected of any group).
   From what I've gathered from the bill (not very good a legalese), this is Hollywood's attempt to get pirated material in other countries. They would prefer to shut down sites like bit torrent (but they can't), so they want to cut off access to the site, and be able to go after the holder of the account that is posting the pirated material. This is more of an anti-bit torrent bill then destroy the internet.

off topic - Getting rid of Congress will throw us towards a dictatorship. Giving one man all that power is bad. You should look up how the US government is suppose to work before you says stuff like that. It's the abuse of power and changes of how government works that is the problem.
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Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 201



« Reply #40 - Posted 2012-01-19 20:09:26 »

All I see is a continuing ratcheting down of any concepts of due process, let alone fair use, that gives the MPAA and RIAA and the like unilateral judicial authority to delete any content online they do not like, and where the process is akin to the odious civil forfeiture laws in which you must prove your innocence to get your property back.

These people are suing moms for what they had playing on the radio in the background of their youtube videos.  Piracy is wrong, but frankly I want these organizations to have their balls cut off and fed to them, which most certainly precludes giving them even more unaccountable power.

Oh, and as an independent content producer of, say, indie games?  You'll be next on their hit list.  Slippery slope is only a fallacy when it hasn't been amply demonstrated over and over.
Offline aazimon
« Reply #41 - Posted 2012-01-19 20:15:42 »

Appel, I don't think you made a very good defence there.

Cas Smiley
I agree.

@Appel. I think you are a victim of your market. Hollywood doesn't see pushing material to Iceland as being worth the effort, or maybe the government is censoring what material can be accessed there. I feel for, but getting pirated material isn't your only course of action, it's just the easiest.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #42 - Posted 2012-01-19 20:59:57 »

The Register has a calm and thoughtful follow up on the issue. tldr; the reasons for the bill won't go away, even though the rather badly-crafted bill itself is likely history now. It will be back in another form perennially until the issue is resolved satisfactorily for everyone.

Cas Smiley

Offline delt0r

JGO Knight


Medals: 26
Exp: 18 years


Computers can do that?


« Reply #43 - Posted 2012-01-19 21:16:58 »

It won't be resolved to anyone's satisfaction. And no amount of law will change the way things work. Block google from returning hits about torrents, other search engines will spring up that do nothing but give torrent results. Distributed searches on the dark nets, with tools a child can use will come out. etc

Piracy is here to stay. Like it or not. The internet will not go away. Even China can't control it. Why do you think the UK and the US can?   

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #44 - Posted 2012-01-19 21:29:21 »

Countries do not seek, I think, to control the internet; they seek to control their citizens, businesses, and economy, which is much easier.

Not a great deal of amendment needs to be made to various parts of that SOPA bill, from what I can see, that would make it rather more effective and rather less likely to attract the ire of tinfoil hats around the globe. They'll chisel away at it until eventually the basic sentiment of what it seeks to do - that is, make sure people like me have a framework where we feel we can more safely earn a reasonable crust in a position of mutual trust - is achieved. It will happen.

Cas Smiley

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #45 - Posted 2012-01-19 21:30:17 »

China, by the way, does a remarkably good job of controlling its citizens use of the internet. As does the UK, though almost none of us are even aware of it.

Cas Smiley

Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 201



« Reply #46 - Posted 2012-01-19 21:35:03 »

I think you have way too much faith in the legislative process.  I think what will eventually come out will be a bill that favors big media monopolies and still manages to screw people like you.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #47 - Posted 2012-01-19 21:53:37 »

I can't honestly see how Puppygames stands to lose anything no matter what.

Cas Smiley

Offline delt0r

JGO Knight


Medals: 26
Exp: 18 years


Computers can do that?


« Reply #48 - Posted 2012-01-19 22:03:10 »

When they tell you that they collect on your behalf, but surprisingly  at the end of the year, that comes out to only $5 of royalties but the fees for a year are $200. And no you can't say no, and you can't opt out, and you can't collect royalties yourself... Much like they already do for musicians now....

If you want to argue your case, the lawyer fees will be $100 per hour. Budget for at least a 2 year long protracted set of court hearings.

They want control of distribution. You are not part of their plan. Mark my words.

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #49 - Posted 2012-01-19 22:33:40 »

Now you really have uncovered the tinfoil hat.

Cas Smiley

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #50 - Posted 2012-01-19 22:36:54 »

Oh, and good bye Megaupload Smiley Can't say I'm sorry to see the back of that one. Hopefully Rapidshare will be next.

Cas Smiley

Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 336
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #51 - Posted 2012-01-19 22:42:52 »

Those sites that force you to wait for your download and then offer terribly slow speeds unless you pay for the service all need to be shut down.

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 50
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #52 - Posted 2012-01-20 01:08:23 »

Appel, I don't think you made a very good defence there.

Cas Smiley
I agree.

@Appel. I think you are a victim of your market. Hollywood doesn't see pushing material to Iceland as being worth the effort, or maybe the government is censoring what material can be accessed there. I feel for, but getting pirated material isn't your only course of action, it's just the easiest.

Nah, I know exactly what I'm talking about, I work in this industry here, IPTV business, we're the largest here and run VOD services containing movies and tv shows.

Has nothing to do with the government, we were among the first in the world to offer VOD to the entire nation. There's no restriction of what material can be accessed here, except by the restrictions Hollywood imposes.

Problem is, it's all in SD. Why? Hollywood won't give us HD because they charge obnoxious amounts for that sort of "premium" content. So, people just go online and pirate it. (I wonder if color tv was premium at the time)

They won't give us TV shows for the VOD rental, instead the TV broadcasters here are able to insert their two latest episodes for each show into our VOD catalog, because they hold the distribution right. They are only viewable by the subscribers for that particular TV channel, they cannot be rented by others. So, we don't have all the shows for each series, only the 2 latest shows. So, people just go online and pirate it.

We have a lot of movies, but not the ones we'd like to have. We have something called a "running window" agreement, which means movies come into the catalog for a period of time and then vanish. New movies are only there for 3-4 weeks and then vanish. Old or bad movies are longer. Each year we receive a list of movies we can show, and we can pick from it. So, for example, by chance we're able to get Terminator 1 and Terminator 3, we'll get it, but we won't be able to get Terminator 2. So, people just go online and pirate it.

Heck, you know, some people like to watch some movies when they want, not when Hollywood wants. So, maybe Harry Potter is no longer in our catalog because it's expired, but someone wants to watch it, tough luck. So, people just go online and pirate it.

And don't think for a second we'll be able to get Star Wars, those are so special movies they won't ever distribute it in other forms than some platinum coated boxes with George Lucas's signature. So, people just go online and pirate it.

We're the largest distributor of LEGAL content here in Iceland, movies and TV shows, yet Hollywood simply won't give us what we want so we can give to our customers what they want. And they wonder why so many people pirate their stuff? Stop treating people like children that must be force fed entertainment.

People want to watch the latest tv show, watch entire series, and watch latest movies, and find any movie to watch, when they want. They can only do that via piracy.


I'm not really trying to justify piracy, but I'm just explaining the reasons why people do it. It's lack of legal means of getting it. I hate the fact people have to resort to piracy, because that means less business for us, and it hurts my job security in the end.

Piracy is not the internets fault, it's the fault of Hollywood unwilling to satisfy their demanding consumers.

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Offline theagentd
« Reply #53 - Posted 2012-01-20 01:24:03 »

Heh, I wonder how you guys will react when I tell you that a two-episode 40-45 minute anime BD costs about 11 000 yen here in Japan, and any music CD costs about 3000 yen.

Myomyomyo.
Offline sproingie

JGO Kernel


Medals: 201



« Reply #54 - Posted 2012-01-20 01:27:12 »

How much is that in money?
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 50
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #55 - Posted 2012-01-20 01:30:49 »

How much is that in money?

Yen is money, just not dollars.

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Offline theagentd
« Reply #56 - Posted 2012-01-20 01:41:13 »

Hahaha...! Print screened and saved FOREVAAR!

11000 JPY = 142.56 USD
3000 JPY = 38.88 USD

Myomyomyo.
Offline SimonH
« Reply #57 - Posted 2012-01-20 02:05:19 »

Am I the only one thinking that if the money spent on combating piracy was given to aspiring game/music/film makers on the condition that their content was freely available then the world would be a better place?

People make games and games make people
Offline theagentd
« Reply #58 - Posted 2012-01-20 04:51:13 »

Am I the only one thinking that if the money spent on combating piracy was given to aspiring game/music/film makers on the condition that their content was freely available then the world would be a better place?
It wouldn't work IRL. How much money does each developer deserve? If we were living in an utopia where such a system was possible, we wouldn't be having this problem in the first place...

Myomyomyo.
Offline ReBirth
« Reply #59 - Posted 2012-01-20 05:13:30 »

The root of all problems: computer can copy data.

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