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  Programming language decisions  (Read 5692 times)
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Offline jasox

Senior Newbie





« Reply #30 - Posted 2012-01-12 16:57:05 »

I think that go-lang will be balance between c++ and java, so I think that is language of future.
I hope so that in the future we can make apps for android in go-lang, I heard some rumors about that :S.
http://golang.org/
Offline Damocles
« Reply #31 - Posted 2012-01-12 17:39:03 »

Well if you mainly want to make a game, and dont have any preference for a specific language,
why not go for a gameengine instead.

unity
torque
gamestudio
XNA
UDK
Flash
etc..

You will have much quicker results then and gain selfesteem quicker, wich might later circle you back
to a more puristic approach using a language like c++ or Java with a lowlevel Graphics API.

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 51
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #32 - Posted 2012-01-12 17:39:24 »

you are always sure in C++ what is a pointer and what not,

The proliferation of "smart pointer" classes in C++ has led me to the complete opposite conclusion.  To say nothing of references, which have pointer semantics sometimes, value semantics other times, and act like plain old aliased names yet other times.


I was going to say the same thing. And of course sometimes you get a pointer to garbage because it's been accidentally deleted behind your back. Or maybe it's something that acts like an opaque handle but it's actually a pointer when used internally - or worse, callbacks or interfaces that force you to cast pointers to int or void*, then cast them back again and hope you've casted it back to the right class or it'll just do Weird Shit(tm).

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Offline R.D.

Senior Member


Medals: 2
Projects: 1


"For the last time, Hats ARE Awesome"


« Reply #33 - Posted 2012-01-12 17:52:09 »

I had a fun talk with one of me programming friends and he said he spends so much time to make C++ work as intend while in Java it's so easy. He often wonders why the sytax is so cribbeld xD My guess is that the founders of C and C++ are assembler dudes xD

Anyway, something I don't like in Java:
operator overloading... I really hope that this will come some day .___.
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #34 - Posted 2012-01-12 18:17:54 »

I think that go-lang will be balance between c++ and java, so I think that is language of future.
I hope so that in the future we can make apps for android in go-lang, I heard some rumors about that :S.
http://golang.org/
Go is still too young (tools, ide's, compilers, optimisations, developers, etc) and doesn't provide anything significant above and beyond what is possible with C++, Java and other JVM languages. So far it just looks like yet another language that'll be lost in the sea of new languages that come out all the time. Also I get the impression that Google are pushing it half heartedly especially now that they've got other darlings like Dart. So a bit premature to say that Go is the language of the future, it'll take a lot more to topple well established languages like C++ and Java.
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 51
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #35 - Posted 2012-01-12 18:36:55 »

I think that go-lang will be balance between c++ and java, so I think that is language of future.
I hope so that in the future we can make apps for android in go-lang, I heard some rumors about that :S.
http://golang.org/
Go is still too young (tools, ide's, compilers, optimisations, developers, etc) and doesn't provide anything significant above and beyond what is possible with C++, Java and other JVM languages. So far it just looks like yet another language that'll be lost in the sea of new languages that come out all the time. Also I get the impression that Google are pushing it half heartedly especially now that they've got other darlings like Dart. So a bit premature to say that Go is the language of the future, it'll take a lot more to topple well established languages like C++ and Java.

Different things surely? Go is aimed at back-end server work, Dart as a Javascript replacement.

Either way, my understanding is that while Go is used quite a lot internally they don't really care about having it work on windows since they don't run any windows servers. Which means it's future use as a 'proper' multiplatform language are a bit bleak.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #36 - Posted 2012-01-13 00:19:21 »

Different things surely? Go is aimed at back-end server work, Dart as a Javascript replacement.
Yeh aware of that, was mostly coming from the direction that the single company is splitting its resources to push two different domain specific languages. Unlikely say Java which was initially pushed as a language that would work everywhere.
Offline EddieRich

Senior Newbie





« Reply #37 - Posted 2012-01-13 02:15:17 »

Is there something in java that you personally don't like, or hate, for that matter? Something I should be vary of, invest learning in the beginning, and so on?

I wish Java had delegates like C#. But, you can implement that with Interfaces in Java and it doesn't really apply to games.

Java doesn't have a preprocesser ( as far as I know ), so it's difficult to have conditional compiles.

Java also doesn't have an alias for namespaces ( whoops, I meant packages ), not a big deal, but I use it in C#.

Working all day writing C#, come home and write JAVA, I mix up the keywords ( bool <> boolean, lock <> syncronize, package <> namespace, etc).

For any language, learn everything you can about multi-threading. Learn about every trap you can and how to avoid them.

If you get to the point where memory becomes an issue ( or if your bored and have some free time ) learn how the garbage collector works, especially for value types ( primitives and structs ) as opposed to objects.
Offline gouessej

« In padded room »



TUER


« Reply #38 - Posted 2012-01-13 12:21:00 »

Java doesn't have a preprocesser ( as far as I know ), so it's difficult to have conditional compiles.
Some J2ME developers use their own preprocessors and anyway, in my humble opinion, it is useless for J2SE, you can perform these tests once at runtime. If you use Java, think in Java or you will become very frustated as time goes by.

Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #39 - Posted 2012-01-14 06:54:03 »

All three languages include:
  • Examples of excellent games built using them
  • Implementations with excellent performance (even when one is shown to be slower, it's still damn fast)
  • Mature and battle tested implementations
  • Large and active communities
  • learning examples
  • Tutorials
  • lots of game-related libraries
  • tonnes and tonnes of other libraries (which you'll need too)
  • on going development (with both implementation and libraries)

My overall point is that isn't any real reason why you should use one over the other; they are all excellent.

But if I had to chose, it would be between C# and Java, but probably leaning towards C#. This is because I've seen tonnes of excellent stuff with C# that I'd love to use, and I like languages that run with adding new features (so I have more stuff to play with). I also develop pretty much exclusively on Windows, so I'd prefer good Windows support then cross platform. C# also has more, and larger, game development communities. However Java has NetBeans, which for Java development, is enough of a reason for me to use Java for a project.

If your really stuck, flip a coin, or roll a dice to decide. You can't pick a bad option.

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Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 322
Projects: 2
Exp: 4 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #40 - Posted 2012-01-14 07:12:51 »

With C#, you will have to use Visual Studio, which is a horrific IDE. Also Eclipse > Netbeans (hehe lets not start this war...Wink)

Offline gouessej

« In padded room »



TUER


« Reply #41 - Posted 2012-01-14 11:45:27 »

With C#, you will have to use Visual Studio, which is a horrific IDE. Also Eclipse > Netbeans (hehe lets not start this war...Wink)
No, it is not mandatory, you can use SharpDevelop, a free open source IDE for C# and VB.NET:
http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/

Offline ReBirth
« Reply #42 - Posted 2012-01-14 11:56:35 »

With C#, you will have to use Visual Studio, which is a horrific IDE. Also Eclipse > Netbeans (hehe lets not start this war...Wink)
No, it is not mandatory, you can use SharpDevelop, a free open source IDE for C# and VB.NET:
http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/
Look ra4king! you start another IDE war  Angry

 Grin

Offline cylab

JGO Knight


Medals: 34



« Reply #43 - Posted 2012-01-14 12:07:20 »

With C#, you will have to use Visual Studio, which is a horrific IDE. Also Eclipse > Netbeans (hehe lets not start this war...Wink)
Actually Visual Studio is not that bad... as soon as you install Intellij Resharper Wink

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline feelingtheblanks

Junior Member


Medals: 3



« Reply #44 - Posted 2012-01-15 00:27:45 »


With C#, you will have to use Visual Studio, which is a horrific IDE. Also Eclipse > Netbeans (hehe lets not start this war...Wink)
I didn't use Visual Studio a lot but It's been the only thing that I missed from C# World. I don't know any free Java IDE that has code intelligence and type-aware code completion as great as Visual Studio.. I'd love to be corrected on that there is free Java IDE that has type-aware code completion. However, NetBeans is also great for Java.
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #45 - Posted 2012-01-15 03:31:06 »

Also I really like the look of Windows 8 Metro, and I'd love to build something with it. That is another reason I would pick C# over Java (although JavaScript might be a better choice since you could also port it to work on the web).

Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 322
Projects: 2
Exp: 4 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #46 - Posted 2012-01-15 03:39:35 »


With C#, you will have to use Visual Studio, which is a horrific IDE. Also Eclipse > Netbeans (hehe lets not start this war...Wink)
I didn't use Visual Studio a lot but It's been the only thing that I missed from C# World. I don't know any free Java IDE that has code intelligence and type-aware code completion as great as Visual Studio.. I'd love to be corrected on that there is free Java IDE that has type-aware code completion. However, NetBeans is also great for Java.
What's "type-aware code completion"? And interesting first post, you must have been roaming and my post made you want to reply Tongue

Offline BoBear2681

JGO Coder


Medals: 18



« Reply #47 - Posted 2012-01-15 07:30:11 »

Visual Studio's C# editor gives code completion choices as you type anything, including letters, if I'm not mistaken.  JDT only offers suggestions when you type '.' in code out-of-the-box.  Is this what you're referring to?

I haven't used Visual Studio in ages, but I remember being enamored with it until I learned from experience just how smart Eclipse really was.  The item above aside, Eclipse was (is?) all-around much more helpful IMO.  Code completion including parameter types/documentation for members, *much* better refactoring support, all kinds of fun shortcuts (Ctrl+O, Ctrl+T), etc.  Just sit down with someone who uses Eclipse day-in and day-out, you'll be amazed at how smart it really is.*  Smiley

* My experience is the JDT Java support only.  My understanding is support for other languages isn't as robust.
Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 322
Projects: 2
Exp: 4 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #48 - Posted 2012-01-15 09:01:11 »

Yeah I have a lot of experience with Eclipse and Visual Studio, I know what you are talking about but the same feature is available in Eclipse if you hit Ctrl+Space. I prefer Eclipse's way because I remember being annoyed by Visual Studio's intellisense popping up every single damn second with every single damn letter Tongue

Offline Roquen
« Reply #49 - Posted 2012-01-15 09:59:25 »

Visual Studio is really quite good.  I wish I had it's debugging features in Eclipse.
Offline feelingtheblanks

Junior Member


Medals: 3



« Reply #50 - Posted 2012-01-15 12:39:59 »

Visual Studio's C# editor gives code completion choices as you type anything, including letters, if I'm not mistaken.  JDT only offers suggestions when you type '.' in code out-of-the-box.  Is this what you're referring to?

I haven't used Visual Studio in ages, but I remember being enamored with it until I learned from experience just how smart Eclipse really was.  The item above aside, Eclipse was (is?) all-around much more helpful IMO.  Code completion including parameter types/documentation for members, *much* better refactoring support, all kinds of fun shortcuts (Ctrl+O, Ctrl+T), etc.  Just sit down with someone who uses Eclipse day-in and day-out, you'll be amazed at how smart it really is.*  Smiley

* My experience is the JDT Java support only.  My understanding is support for other languages isn't as robust.
Yes, that's what I referred to. Eclipse's feature with Ctrl + Space is also good. And I thought I had the right to post on this topic as a newbie, seems I got wrong.
Online theagentd
« Reply #51 - Posted 2012-01-15 12:46:37 »

And I thought I had the right to post on this topic as a newbie, seems I got wrong.
Are you being touchy or just playing hard to get?  Wink

Myomyomyo.
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 51
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #52 - Posted 2012-01-15 13:05:35 »

Visual Studio is really quite good.  I wish I had it's debugging features in Eclipse.

You've got to be careful saying that, because Visual Studio behaves very, very differently depending on the language it's being used for. Intellisense/autocomplete for example, is terrible for C++, but reasonably good for C# (although IMHO both Netbeans and Eclipse's Java intellisense run rings around VS's C# intellisense, which I believe to be a fair comparison).

IIRC, both Eclipse and VS can be configured to either give you autocomplete as you type or on a ctrl+space. But I believe they're usually set up to different defaults.

Just to make things even more vague, most people who say 'Visual Studio's auto complete' are actually using Visual Assist. Which is widely thought to be the only way to make VS C++ actually usable, and non-free.

Debugging too. VS's C++ debugger is great, but the C# debugger is much less feature complete and more on a par with Eclipse's IMHO.

I believe this awkward situation accounts for 99% of arguments about which of the IDEs are better. Undecided

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline feelingtheblanks

Junior Member


Medals: 3



« Reply #53 - Posted 2012-01-15 13:10:19 »

And I thought I had the right to post on this topic as a newbie, seems I got wrong.
Are you being touchy or just playing hard to get?  Wink
Not at all, I suppose. I haven't been into forums earlier, i don't know how things work here, so I just wanted to say my opinion, not like trolling or sth. Sorry if I looked like that but I'm not Smiley
Offline BoBear2681

JGO Coder


Medals: 18



« Reply #54 - Posted 2012-01-15 18:09:02 »

And I thought I had the right to post on this topic as a newbie, seems I got wrong.
Are you being touchy or just playing hard to get?  Wink
Not at all, I suppose. I haven't been into forums earlier, i don't know how things work here, so I just wanted to say my opinion, not like trolling or sth. Sorry if I looked like that but I'm not Smiley

Aye, I wasn't trying to belittle your opinion or anything, just stating my own.  Sorry bout that.

I really should try out the latest Visual Studio, it's surely improved quite a bit since I last "seriously" used it (VS2005 maybe?).
Offline BoBear2681

JGO Coder


Medals: 18



« Reply #55 - Posted 2012-01-15 18:14:52 »

Visual Studio is really quite good.  I wish I had it's debugging features in Eclipse.

Out of curiosity, what debugging features does it have that Eclipse is lacking?  I would have thought Eclipse would have been very comparable feature-wise to VS, at least for C#/managed code languages.  Especially with Eclipse's more rapid release cycle.
Offline xinaesthetic

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #56 - Posted 2012-01-16 18:53:18 »

Visual Studio is really quite good.  I wish I had it's debugging features in Eclipse.

Out of curiosity, what debugging features does it have that Eclipse is lacking?  I would have thought Eclipse would have been very comparable feature-wise to VS, at least for C#/managed code languages.  Especially with Eclipse's more rapid release cycle.

Off the top of my head (having not really done much Java for a little while), Eclipse lacks things like 'set next statement' and also isn't so quick to inspect items as you hover over them... tbh I find them both much of a muchness for debugging.

C# is IMHO a nicer language: properties, operator overload and delegates were already mentioned, also LINQ, some handy parallel stuff... I wouldn't want to write C# without ReSharper though (mostly because it does stuff similar to what Eclipse, Netbeans etc do for free), and that means not only paying for r# but also getting VS Pro as Express doesn't support extensions IIRC.

Sorry to say it, but in practice in terms of getting a game out there, C# seems better... Mono effectively allows you to reach desktop platforms similarly to Java, but also iOS which is not to be sniffed at.  I'd like to know what the performance of Monotouch / droid is really like though, since I'll be starting to prototype some iOS stuff soon and it looks like an appealing approach, but Monotouch is another chunk of money to lay down so it would be a shame if that was wasted...

Must admit, the culture around C# does feel rather less free...

XNA is mostly a nice API, though I do have some reservations.
Offline tackman

Senior Newbie





« Reply #57 - Posted 2012-01-16 19:54:54 »

You've been rambling about IDEs, which one is better and so on, so another question surfaced in my tiny mind.

Can you write java code withOUT an IDE? Using only notepad++, or some equivalent software for linux / mac?

(personally, I can't. I use Eclipse, and I'm happy with it)
Offline sproingie
« Reply #58 - Posted 2012-01-16 19:58:51 »

I occasionally write trivial java code in emacs or kate, yes.  Emphasis on trivial, it's just too annoying otherwise.

Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #59 - Posted 2012-01-16 20:26:39 »

Can you write java code withOUT an IDE? Using only notepad++, or some equivalent software for linux / mac?

(personally, I can't. I use Eclipse, and I'm happy with it)
Yes, trivially.

However Java is one of the few languages where I prefer a full IDE (although with a few minor changes to Visual Studio, I'd happily use that for JavaScript).

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