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Offline princec

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« Posted 2011-11-17 22:49:17 »

Ok, on a whimsy, the LWJGL16k competition starts right here, right now. Maybe you'd like to take advantage of the extra bytes for your 4k compo entry and flesh it out a little. Maybe you'd like to do something a bit deeper. You can do a lot in 16k with some simple sprites and sounds.

The rules are simple:

Your entry will run with the following commandline which you will supply as both a .bat and .sh file in your submitted zip:

java -Djava.library.path=. -Xincgc -cp lwjgl.jar;lwjgl_util.jar;jinput.jar;<your game jars> <main-class> <args>

The judges computers will have at least Java 5 installed and may be either 32 or 64 bit with an appropriate JVM and will furthermore be capable of running OpenGL2.1 or better in fullscreen or windowed mode with 32-bit RBGA framebuffers on monitors running at 60Hz thus ruling out ancient cranky shite and rubbish drivers. The appropriate LWJGL 2.8.2 libraries will be present already in the right spot. The total size of <your game jars> will be 16384 bytes or less. There are no judges yet and I have no idea who will judge, on what criteria, or even if there will be any judges. This is an exercise in making games, not "winning".

Start your engines!

Query: Shall I include jorbis as an available library?

Cas Smiley

Offline kappa
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« Reply #1 - Posted 2011-11-17 23:00:21 »

Query: Shall I include jorbis as an available library?
yes would be nice, a texture loading class might be cool too, I recommend MatthiasM's small single PNGDecoder class.
Offline princec

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2011-11-17 23:01:41 »

To that I say, it's not in LWJGL! So it goes into your game byte count. Life is so much simpler with absolute rules Smiley Feel free to use the PNGDecoder class. But be aware that it will count towards your totals.

Also: bear in mind you've got the entire J2SE library code at your disposal. That means you can load JPEGs and PNGs just using ImageIO.

Cas Smiley

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Offline Alan_W

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« Reply #3 - Posted 2011-11-17 23:07:30 »

This is a bit of a duplicate, as I put in in the other thread.  Can I submit SharpShooter16k (Written for the last time round).  It still works except for fullscreen, which stopped working for some reason.  Recompiling against the new libraries might fix that.

Alan

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Offline princec

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« Reply #4 - Posted 2011-11-17 23:10:51 »

Of course! Fullscreen most likely is fixed for you, too.

Cas Smiley

Offline Alan_W

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« Reply #5 - Posted 2011-11-17 23:14:00 »

Thanks.  I'll give it a recompile over the weekend.  Might warm over the end game a bit if I can squeeze any more bytes out of it.

Alan

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline CaptainJester

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« Reply #6 - Posted 2011-11-18 00:53:34 »

How much time do we have? If it is about 3 months I should be able to make an entry.

Online theagentd
« Reply #7 - Posted 2011-11-18 08:13:08 »

Very interesting, but I don't have time at the moment. I'll be there next time for sure though!

Myomyomyo.
Offline princec

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« Reply #8 - Posted 2011-11-18 10:36:28 »

The idea of LWJGL16k is that you don't need much time. What I'm going to emphasise in the "competition" is the importance of learning just what you need to learn, and SHIPPING something.

The first deadline is 1 week from now.

This means you can submit anything you've got lying around, maybe rejig a 4K entry to use LWJGL rendering. Anything. Maybe just a bouncing ball. I just want to see how it goes.

Subsequent deadlines will be in the form of milestones at regular intervals where you can either tweak what you've got and resubmit it, more polished or completed, or make a new game. The more games you've got the more chance at glory.

I think I might even "enter" one myself.

GO!

Cas Smiley

Offline kappa
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« Reply #9 - Posted 2011-11-18 10:46:51 »

cool stuff, will be entering too, really like the milestone/deadline idea.
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Offline princec

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« Reply #10 - Posted 2011-11-18 11:03:55 »

The idea with that is there's no excuse not to enter something Wink And the cream will gradually rise. There is, fundamentally, a pretty hard limit when you've only got 16kb.

Oh I should probably have also stated: consider the code to be behind a firewall. No sneaky jar downloading over network! Likewise no online hiscores.

Cas Smiley

Offline princec

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« Reply #11 - Posted 2011-11-18 11:50:30 »

Just so you know I'm quite serious about this: I've just registered lwjgl16k.org/com/info/net for 10 years for a total of nearly £300. We'll get a website up and running on it as soon as expedient.

Remember: you've got 7 days. All I'm looking for at this stage from you is a blank window opening up and maybe a rotating square or whatever. Of course complete games are even more welcome but the idea is to get something shipped.

Until we can figure out a way to get the entries to me I'd suggest you clever people go and install DropBox and plonk them in your Public folder and link to them that way.

Cas Smiley

Offline Mads

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« Reply #12 - Posted 2011-11-18 22:08:00 »

Very nice! I do not have the time this week though, but I'm curious as to how this is going    Cool Full support

Online theagentd
« Reply #13 - Posted 2011-11-19 21:32:34 »

As I can't reliably use FBOs as OpenGL 3 isn't supported, can I use PBuffers? They should be supported by anything supporting OpenGL 2.1. OpenGL Extension Viewer shows that the Nvidia 6000-series supports them.

Myomyomyo.
Offline Riven
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« Reply #14 - Posted 2011-11-19 23:02:40 »

As I can't reliably use FBOs as OpenGL 3 isn't supported, can I use PBuffers? They should be supported by anything supporting OpenGL 2.1. OpenGL Extension Viewer shows that the Nvidia 6000-series supports them.
FBOs existed long before OpenGL 3, through ARB extensions. Even crappy integrated GPUs supports it.

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Offline Mike

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« Reply #15 - Posted 2011-11-20 00:52:00 »

I use VBO's through the extension and even old crappy integrated intel cards with opengl 1.4 supports it.

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
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Offline Riven
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Hand over your head.


« Reply #16 - Posted 2011-11-20 00:56:24 »

FBO != VBO Smiley

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Online theagentd
« Reply #17 - Posted 2011-11-20 01:58:52 »

As I can't reliably use FBOs as OpenGL 3 isn't supported, can I use PBuffers? They should be supported by anything supporting OpenGL 2.1. OpenGL Extension Viewer shows that the Nvidia 6000-series supports them.
FBOs existed long before OpenGL 3, through ARB extensions. Even crappy integrated GPUs supports it.
I know, but if extensions are allowed, can I use tessellation shaders too? It'll still be OpenGL 2.1 + an extension. >_> And I'm not that sure about Intel cards handling FBOs well. >_>

Myomyomyo.
Offline princec

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« Reply #18 - Posted 2011-11-20 10:46:11 »

You can use any extensions you want. Just make sure that it still works when they're not present Smiley This means, probably, not using them! You are getting bogged down in technical minutiae instead of making a game.

Cas Smiley

Offline Mike

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« Reply #19 - Posted 2011-11-20 11:29:10 »

FBO != VBO Smiley

I should learn to read slower so I might actually see what is said Smiley

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Online theagentd
« Reply #20 - Posted 2011-11-20 15:44:27 »

You can use any extensions you want. Just make sure that it still works when they're not present Smiley This means, probably, not using them! You are getting bogged down in technical minutiae instead of making a game.

Cas Smiley
So if my game REQUIRES either PBuffers or FBOs and a system that claims it supports OpenGL 2.1 fails to run it, my game will be disqualified?

Myomyomyo.
Offline kappa
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« Reply #21 - Posted 2011-11-20 16:08:43 »

hmm, just curious why limit the contest to OpenGL 2.1?, since we're a niche group and not representative of the general masses, why not just allow up to OpenGL 3.2 and so whoever wants to have some fun with some advanced features can do so.

Just pick a judge with a decent (say 2 to 3 years old) graphics card. I've got a 4 year old card and it supports OpenGL 3.3 (as should most DirectX 9 cards).

Besides, stuff like FBO's and Shaders will allow for much nicer looking games. Smiley
Online theagentd
« Reply #22 - Posted 2011-11-20 19:26:31 »

I just want offscreen drawing. It's probably not a good idea to use pure OpenGL 3+ as you'll have to write much more code just to get a triangle on the screen.

Myomyomyo.
Offline Alan_W

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« Reply #23 - Posted 2011-11-20 20:32:55 »

I'm using immediate mode.  I'm just not pushing enough triangles for performance to matter.  persecutioncomplex

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Online theagentd
« Reply #24 - Posted 2011-11-20 21:36:58 »

If you're drawing advanced 3D models, it's obviously better to use glDraw* methods, but when you have to handle VBOs, VAOs and shader programs and objects just to draw a fullscreen quad, things are getting ridiculous.

Myomyomyo.
Offline princec

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« Reply #25 - Posted 2011-11-20 23:20:12 »

Just be aware that the more clever stuff you do like this the less room you'll have for "game"... I only suggested OpenGL2.1 because the majority of Macs can cope with it. Most of them don't have OpenGL 3 or better. There are extensions to do a lot of the OpenGL 3 stuff in 2.1 but... you're probably wasting valuable space thinking of special effects before you've even thought of a game.

Cas Smiley

Offline kappa
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« Reply #26 - Posted 2011-11-20 23:22:53 »

ah right, the mac limitation, guess best to stick with opengl 2.x than.
Offline princec

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« Reply #27 - Posted 2011-11-22 13:38:41 »

3 days left to submit something!

Another question: lzma.jar is included as part of LWJGL - I think it should probably be on the classpath. Agreed? Some of you clever souls will manage to cram more data in that way.
<edit>Hm yes, a huge increase in compression in fact. Putting my current jar through it - 9kb - gets it down to 7kb.

Cas Smiley

Offline kappa
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« Reply #28 - Posted 2011-11-22 14:28:53 »

I'm not sure including lzma.jar on its own will really be of much benefit for the kind of sizes we are talking about, I say this mainly because of the following:

1) You will need extra code to handle the decoding of the lzma compression which would probably negate most of the savings you get.

2) If you are thinking of lzma'ing the whole jar, you'll probably need a bootstrap jar to extract the thing and then either dynamically add it to the classpath or launch a new jvm, again eating away the savings.

3) The java runtime already has gzip support built in which is equally or almost as good as lzma and the difference is probably insignificant for the sizes we're talking about.

One option that does come to mind though is if you also allow lwjgl_util_applet.jar (which is why lzma.jar is there in the first place), then you could make a decent saving as it provides all the methods and code needed to extract and load code from lzma files.
Offline princec

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Medals: 343
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« Reply #29 - Posted 2011-11-22 14:53:37 »

Aha! I actually completely forgot that lwjgl_util_applet.jar even existed. I'll look into it. We might end up having to use it anyway to get around the deployment issues once the first few rounds are over to show the games to a wider audience.

Cas Smiley

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