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  Still hardly any games, why entity systems suck, and why 4k is good  (Read 21670 times)
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Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 51
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #30 - Posted 2011-11-15 19:45:57 »

Bonus points to anyone who implements a entity system in 4k  Grin

You're right to a point princec, but I've spent a fair amount of time doing ES stuff and while I agree you can get lost in it, the current framework I have now is pretty much complimentary to prototyping if you've gotten the hang of it.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline Mads

JGO Ninja


Medals: 26
Projects: 3
Exp: 6 years


One for all!


« Reply #31 - Posted 2011-11-15 19:46:59 »

you can never expect java is installed, and I want to do everything I can to hide it's java

people even now message notch saying "isnt it too slow?" - all java 1.0 opinions are never going to die

when I made a mini game recently, Arcane Nebula, I included a private VM of course
What you can also do is change the java.exe name to Gamebla.exe so in the task manager too it wont show java

but I'm gonna need that mac stuff from Cas eventually - never done anything on a mac, so I dont even now what kind of .exe equivalents there are

You also managed to hide it from the Linux, and Mac scene, as well as making installation a hell for Windows users.
Portability, was not poart of Arcane Nebula. Sorry.

Offline R.D.

Senior Duke


Medals: 2
Projects: 1


"For the last time, Hats ARE Awesome"


« Reply #32 - Posted 2011-11-15 20:23:24 »

Aha! Right:

Windows: embed your VM. Write C++ launcher. Make NSIS installer to install the lot. Do not under any circumstances rely on an existing JVM on the system. I will post some code, I think, in a bit.
MacOS: taken care of for you. Steal mine.
Linux: ditto. Ignore people who don't have Java already installed for now. Head pains, hair loss, etc. result from supporting Linux.

Cas Smiley

hell what? That is possible? Please make it as soon as you have time Sad I'm looking for a way to deploy my own jvm so long, since -as you said- you can't rely on the jvm's the end user has >:|
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Cero
« Reply #33 - Posted 2011-11-15 20:55:28 »

you can never expect java is installed, and I want to do everything I can to hide it's java

people even now message notch saying "isnt it too slow?" - all java 1.0 opinions are never going to die

when I made a mini game recently, Arcane Nebula, I included a private VM of course
What you can also do is change the java.exe name to Gamebla.exe so in the task manager too it wont show java

but I'm gonna need that mac stuff from Cas eventually - never done anything on a mac, so I dont even now what kind of .exe equivalents there are

You also managed to hide it from the Linux, and Mac scene, as well as making installation a hell for Windows users.
Portability, was not poart of Arcane Nebula. Sorry.

Don't argue with linux and mac part - wasn't trying to port it.
But about windows ? It has a nice NSIS installer for windows.
Took Cas' advice that he and probably normal users wont even bother with a game if it doesn't have a proper installer.
Of course just using an archive is kinda more easier for people you just want to peek in and stuff - but not for publishing

Offline counterp

Senior Duke


Medals: 11



« Reply #34 - Posted 2011-11-15 21:00:11 »

RuneScape started off using Java2D and it's probably the most successful java game ever. (at least for now, I can see minecraft taking over)
Offline jezek2
« Reply #35 - Posted 2011-11-15 21:08:07 »

Aha! Right:

Windows: embed your VM. Write C++ launcher. Make NSIS installer to install the lot. Do not under any circumstances rely on an existing JVM on the system. I will post some code, I think, in a bit.
MacOS: taken care of for you. Steal mine.
Linux: ditto. Ignore people who don't have Java already installed for now. Head pains, hair loss, etc. result from supporting Linux.

Cas Smiley

hell what? That is possible? Please make it as soon as you have time Sad I'm looking for a way to deploy my own jvm so long, since -as you said- you can't rely on the jvm's the end user has >:|

No need to wait, you can do it with launch4j already.

Also you can use embeded JRE under Linux too and hopefully soon on Mac too. Which is the most reliable way to run Java apps.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #36 - Posted 2011-11-15 21:10:30 »

>[...] even I've shifted 300,000 copies of Revenge of the Titans [...]

Ace. Smiley

>Linux: ditto. Ignore people who don't have Java already installed for now. Head pains, hair loss, etc. result from supporting Linux.

Ubuntu is shipped with Java. Also, Open Office (or Libre Office) requires Java. I guess that Java is installed on >90% of the Linux desktops.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline pjt33
« Reply #37 - Posted 2011-11-15 21:11:26 »

RuneScape started off using Java2D and it's probably the most successful java game ever. (at least for now, I can see minecraft taking over)
It barely used Java2D. All drawing was done directly to an int[] backing a BufferedImage. (It's also worth mentioning that the company which was set up to exploit it commercially was named after the engine - although Andrew Gower had written a lot of games before writing that engine).
Offline counterp

Senior Duke


Medals: 11



« Reply #38 - Posted 2011-11-15 21:16:32 »

The point is that it didn't start off using OpenGL, and it certainly didn't use LWJGL. It only used Java2D.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #39 - Posted 2011-11-15 21:18:10 »

Bonus points to anyone who implements a entity system in 4k  Grin

The smallest-possible implementation over at http://entity-systems.wikidot.com/ would probably fit quite well in 4k entry.

Although I wouldn't recommend it. With 4k, you're not iterating enough to really care about ES, IMHO.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #40 - Posted 2011-11-15 21:21:46 »


@blah^3 - But I'm rather getting at why here, the nexus of Java games development, there's an awful lot of talk and not much trousers. The Flash developers have got it right. They concentrate on shipping, largely within the fairly strict confines of what is available in Flash to keep them quite focused.

Ah, I misunderstood, sorry.

Total agreement with you on both counts: for *here*, that's the problem, and *ship it, don't talk about it* is the essence of game making.

Quote
I don't think I'll ever agree with you about entity systems. At least, not until I a) start writing in javascript and b) start making the next World of Warcraft. Where an entity system would make the job easier. To the rest of you: you have Entities, and each entity will be one of Player, Bullet, Alien, Powerup, and EnemyBullet. This is almost exactly a perfect fit for inheritance. Now get on with the rest of your game!

That's because you're a NIH zealot Tongue.

My re-write of Amstrad CPC 464 Roland On the Ropes used IIRC 5 discrete entities, and it saved time doing it that way even with so few (because I re-used one of the tiny ES's on the wiki I linked above).

Anything larger than a 1985 Amstrad game (which was probably written in BASIC) and an ES should be making significant savings on development time.

If anyone reading this doesn't find that happen ... then you've missed the point, or you're doing it wrong - or you just suck at Game Design and need to find yourself a game designer who cares.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #41 - Posted 2011-11-15 22:02:08 »

I agree, except that Java is definitely not the only issue. Programmers are the issue.

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline Damocles
« Reply #42 - Posted 2011-11-15 22:11:05 »

The good thing about the limitation of 4k (or the classic JavaME Mobile-Phone games where I come from)
is that the canvas of creating content is smaller.

Too much freedom ends up in putting the stakes too high.

In Java4k, I normally make a graphical prototype of some sort. Doing so, the first results push my imagination,
 (what would be fun to happen and to do in this gameword...)

And then (feeling that the limitations come closer) Im forced to put in
gamemechanics and creativity much earlier than in an unlimited scenario.

With no limits, the features start piling up. Like a boy writing his Santa-WishList. More and more, to the point where the project feels so huge that its
demoralizing, or simply too much work to carve everything into shape.

In a limited scenario its much easier to cut down on the feature list, and concentrate on polishing and refining the remaining parts.

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 817
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #43 - Posted 2011-11-15 22:22:43 »

Click to Play

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 350
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #44 - Posted 2011-11-15 22:38:06 »

Source?

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 817
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #45 - Posted 2011-11-15 22:54:09 »

I drew it.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 188
Projects: 24
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Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #46 - Posted 2011-11-15 22:54:36 »

That explains it.

Kev

Offline tberthel
« Reply #47 - Posted 2011-11-15 23:03:35 »

Click to Play


Riven, your amazing.

Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #48 - Posted 2011-11-15 23:06:35 »

Click to Play

Pretty damn true, actually.  Cranky

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 350
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #49 - Posted 2011-11-15 23:29:33 »

It's quite genius!

EDIT: Ahhh! The image is gone! Cry

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 407
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #50 - Posted 2011-11-16 00:26:44 »

I am the first to admit I'm relatively clueless Smiley But I think it puts me right in the middle of that graph.

Cas Smiley

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #51 - Posted 2011-11-16 00:55:45 »

Click to Play


Disturbingly true I suspect. It's worrying just how much I can get done for a LD 48-hour competition when I've just got my "hack it now" hat on - sometimes more than I've got done during weekends for several months.

I wonder if that also explains the Ballmer Peak.


[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 51
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #52 - Posted 2011-11-16 01:16:23 »

We should have online sessions where java game programmers can "learn" how to write bad code, and get their game running asap.

Who will volunteer?

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 817
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #53 - Posted 2011-11-16 01:29:36 »

I think the idea in the back of your head should be that you will never publish this code, nobody but you will ever attempt to grasp it or even glance at it. Given that new found lack of imaginary prying eyes, you'll find yourself grinning at code without feeling the urge to refactor it to oblivion behind one or two abstraction layers. This is where the Flash programmers reside and they are happy. It's a good thing.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline avm1979
« Reply #54 - Posted 2011-11-16 01:40:04 »

We should have online sessions where java game programmers can "learn" how to write bad code, and get their game running asap.

Who will volunteer?

I don't think anything but bitter experience can teach that. If you like programming, it's tough to really internalize that nobody cares about your code. I think we all like to take pride in our work - and this is good! - but the mental shift happens when you stop seeing it as "programming" and start looking at it as "making <something>".

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 51
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #55 - Posted 2011-11-16 01:42:34 »

We should have online sessions where java game programmers can "learn" how to write bad code, and get their game running asap.

Who will volunteer?

I don't think anything but bitter experience can teach that. If you like programming, it's tough to really internalize that nobody cares about your code. I think we all like to take pride in our work - and this is good! - but the mental shift happens when you stop seeing it as "programming" and start looking at it as "making <something>".

It was meant as a very deep sarcastic joke Smiley

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline avm1979
« Reply #56 - Posted 2011-11-16 01:49:54 »

It was meant as a very deep sarcastic joke Smiley

Well yeah, I knew you weren't suggesting that in earnest Wink

Offline Nate

JGO Kernel


Medals: 149
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #57 - Posted 2011-11-16 07:13:34 »

I've shipped one large success (FunnyCall), one small success (SingSong), one failure (Ioki), and one non-game failure (home automation scripting platform). Only SingSong was Java. At the same time I have three major projects that are remain unfinished. On the "bright" side, I have a dozen finished OSS projects, about five of which I would say are very useful. I'm doing this for fun, so I don't mind branching off on some tangent or just stopping if a project becomes not fun to work on. However, recently I got the urge to go back and finish those projects, if only for a sense of closure. So much time went into them, it makes me kind of sad that they are just collecting dust. I'm scheduling my time better and I have a plan to get there. Stay tuned! Smiley

Offline divxdede

Junior Duke





« Reply #58 - Posted 2011-11-16 07:34:36 »

In all case , it's depends what you want to to.

Personnaly building a game, an api or an app is in the first place a fun time.
Making crappy codes don't give me any fun at all and as long as i do it just for fun (and not for money), i'm not really frustrate to have unfinished projects.

Trying building well-designed code, fully commented, etc... don't mean necessary failures projects and happilly  i finished some ones

By example 4K competition is a nice event that i follow and play/test contributions, but i will never be able participate to it.
I can't resign to developp a game with all i hate (bad design, one big class, and so one) for be able to achieve 4K goal.

Offline Groboclown
« Reply #59 - Posted 2011-11-16 08:50:12 »

By example 4K competition is a nice event that i follow and play/test contributions, but i will never be able participate to it.
I can't resign to developp a game with all i hate (bad design, one big class, and so one) for be able to achieve 4K goal.
For me, the 4k competition brings back the "bad old days" of writing C and assembly against the bare iron of DOS, and pulling out a lot of the tricks we did back then to fit in the memory constraints.  Fortunately, a whole bunch of those tricks were well documented and are still available if you know where to search for it.

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