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Online princec

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« Reply #60 - Posted 2011-09-23 11:15:07 »

Let's not forget that Apple have been doing this since forever, and there's possibly even a case that consoles also fit in to this category. It will be quite the legal minefield.

Cas Smiley

Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #61 - Posted 2011-09-23 13:44:55 »

But, this is a good thing. Rootkits are a place where malware can live, and can prevent the OS from being able to remove it (on Linux, MacOS and Windows).

Google have already been doing this with (some) Chromebooks, and on theirs it can be disabled. It'll almost certainly be the same with most Windows machines you buy; it'll only be the cheap ones (with poor hardware) where disabling this won't be included.

Online princec

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« Reply #62 - Posted 2011-09-23 14:19:04 »

Exactly the sort of hardware that usually gets a new lease of life with a Linux install on it :/
So long as it's mandated that the feature can be turned off somehow then it achieves what it sets out to do and keeps everybody else happy as well.

Cas Smiley

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Offline sproingie

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« Reply #63 - Posted 2011-09-23 17:38:05 »

MS have been known to use their special discounts to force the big OEMs to do what they want, if they don't they simply don't get the special discounts and are sold windows at the normal OEM prices.

Sure, they once had this leverage, but there is genuine competition now, especially in the area of tablets and phones, in which Microsoft has always been a distant also-ran.  If Microsoft doesn't play ball, there's always Android, not to mention that someone competent will eventually buy WebOS.
Offline pjt33
« Reply #64 - Posted 2011-09-23 18:01:48 »

I use my new iPad2 all the time since I got it a few weeks ago. It's just wonderful. (I've never owned a smartphone). I read the interwebs in bed. I can just whip it out in the kitchen to get a recipe up on the screen. Even my mum figured out how to use it without any help whatsoever.
I'm impressed. We've had one in the office for a while now, and every time I try to do anything with it I get frustrated. I used OS X for a couple of years in a previous job, and I had no complaints about its UI, but both iPod and iPad interfaces are so unintuitive to me that I've started viewing claims that Apple are good at UI design as pure hype.

More seriously, I'm really worried by the UEFI and the secure boot which would prevent the installation of any other OS on a lot of consumer machines. I know that a lot of people here don't mind but this thing looks like a piece of Palladium / "trusted" computing. Bootkits and rootkits are only excuses to provide this bad solution.
It's probably done for Enterprise customers. They would want to be able to lock down the machine as much as possible, and make it difficult/annoying to steal. For them, this makes perfect sense.

I do not believe this will make it onto consumer machines. It is too big of a restriction. They also wouldn't have a beautiful new boot loader if they were planning to prevent installing other OS's.
I read that Win8 would refuse to boot unless the boot loader was completely locked down. Unless the EU forces OEMs to include a hardware switch, I see it as being cheapest for them not to bother.
Offline Roquen
« Reply #65 - Posted 2011-09-23 18:42:38 »

I read that you couldn't get the win 8 compat sticker unless it supported secure boot.
Offline aazimon
« Reply #66 - Posted 2011-09-23 22:29:34 »

Wow, I didn't know my little comment would sparks such a ruckus. I not too crazy about the idea of a tablet, but I do see some situation, like Cas mention, that it could be useful. So, I've been reluctant to buy one, because I don't see myself using it that much. Except maybe as an e-reader.  Cheesy
Microsoft is trying to move into tablets with Windows 8. I think they are betting that the PC user will find it easy to switch to the Windows 8 tablet, without having to figure out a new interface. The article I read, said that once you use it on a tablet, you will want to type on your PC screen.
Online princec

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« Reply #67 - Posted 2011-09-24 21:22:43 »

I even posted on Facebook whilst having a poo. Think about the possibilities!

Cas Smiley

Offline theagentd

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« Reply #68 - Posted 2011-09-24 22:42:13 »

I even posted on Facebook whilst having a poo. Think about the possibilities!

Cas Smiley
-1
NO.

Myomyomyo.
Online princec

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« Reply #69 - Posted 2011-09-24 23:11:17 »

You can't unthink that now.

Cas Smiley

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Offline ra4king

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« Reply #70 - Posted 2011-09-25 05:01:12 »

I even posted on Facebook whilst having a poo. Think about the possibilities!

Cas Smiley
+1
Thanks for the ROFL Grin

Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #71 - Posted 2011-09-25 08:36:32 »

Surprise surprise, Microsoft isn't implementing secure-boot to block out Linux, and they recommend that users should be allowed to disable it (source).

Even the Samsung tablets MS gave away at the BUILD conference, the only official Win 8 tablets that are out in the wild, put together in conjunction with Microsoft, allow you to disable secure-boot.

Offline pjt33
« Reply #72 - Posted 2011-09-25 16:30:07 »

I even posted on Facebook whilst having a poo. Think about the possibilities!

Cas Smiley
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See, no need for tablets  Tongue
Offline gouessej
« Reply #73 - Posted 2011-09-26 08:02:14 »

Surprise surprise, Microsoft isn't implementing secure-boot to block out Linux, and they recommend that users should be allowed to disable it (source).
It does not solve the problem because manufacturers are not forced to implement a way of disabling the secure boot. The cheaper solution for them consists in forcing the secure boot. Microsoft is clever to let them do its dirty job. Don't be blind.

I encourage people to boycott Microsoft products.

Offline Roquen
« Reply #74 - Posted 2011-09-26 08:28:57 »

This really seems like a "The sky is falling!" kinda thing.  The number of people that is could possibly effect would have to be in the "round-off" error region.  Like I just mentioned in other thread, the last time I looked at market share windows was around 91%.  Let say that number suddenly drops down to 80%.  So you have 20% of people left.  What percentage of them are cheap enough to buy hardware that doesn't allow disabling secure boot BUT are stupid enough to buy a machine with windows pre-installed (i.e. they're buying a windows license)?
Offline gouessej
« Reply #75 - Posted 2011-09-26 13:58:45 »

This really seems like a "The sky is falling!" kinda thing. 
The sky is not falling for those who don't take care of GNU/Linux.

The number of people that is could possibly effect would have to be in the "round-off" error region.  Like I just mentioned in other thread, the last time I looked at market share windows was around 91%.  Let say that number suddenly drops down to 80%.  So you have 20% of people left.  What percentage of them are cheap enough to buy hardware that doesn't allow disabling secure boot BUT are stupid enough to buy a machine with windows pre-installed (i.e. they're buying a windows license)?
You forget people who change their operating system but not their hardware at the same time which is more common in countries in which it is difficult to buy a computer with no operating system. If the secure boot prevents the installation of GNU/Linux, it will be a problem for them, it will be a problem for the majority of the new adopters of GNU/Linux, it will be a problem for its future.

Offline JL235

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« Reply #76 - Posted 2011-09-26 14:06:12 »

This really seems like a "The sky is falling!" kinda thing. 
The sky is not falling for those who don't take care of GNU/Linux.
It's not falling for those who do either.

Again, Microsoft are recommending that users CAN disable secure boot. MS do heavy amounts of dog-fooding, and most of their guys are techy guys, who like to install multiple-OS's, and stuff like that. I'd even bet a lot of MS employees run Linux at home, or on their own servers.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #77 - Posted 2011-09-26 14:16:32 »

It's not falling for those who do either.

Again, Microsoft are recommending that users CAN disable secure boot. MS do heavy amounts of dog-fooding, and most of their guys are techy guys, who like to install multiple-OS's, and stuff like that. I'd even bet a lot of MS employees run Linux at home, or on their own servers.
Microsoft does not force manufacturers to provide this feature as an optional thing which could be disabled. If users complain, it will be the problem of the manufacturers, not the problem of Microsoft but it will be fine for it to discourage some users to switch to GNU/Linux. The customers will be less motivated to switch to GNU/Linux if they have to buy another machine or tinker their existing one to disable the secure boot in the case the manufacturer did not provide any easy way to disable it.

Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #78 - Posted 2011-09-26 15:18:29 »

It's not falling for those who do either.

Again, Microsoft are recommending that users CAN disable secure boot. MS do heavy amounts of dog-fooding, and most of their guys are techy guys, who like to install multiple-OS's, and stuff like that. I'd even bet a lot of MS employees run Linux at home, or on their own servers.
Microsoft does not force manufacturers to provide this feature as an optional thing which could be disabled. If users complain, it will be the problem of the manufacturers, not the problem of Microsoft but it will be fine for it to discourage some users to switch to GNU/Linux. The customers will be less motivated to switch to GNU/Linux if they have to buy another machine or tinker their existing one to disable the secure boot in the case the manufacturer did not provide any easy way to disable it.
I don't think it'll be the boot options that will _continue_ to put off users switching to GNU/Linux.

Offline pjt33
« Reply #79 - Posted 2011-09-26 17:09:55 »

What percentage of them are cheap enough to buy hardware that doesn't allow disabling secure boot BUT are stupid enough to buy a machine with windows pre-installed (i.e. they're buying a windows license)?
I don't follow your reasoning. Those who want to buy cheap hardware and don't want to subsidise Microsoft by buying a licence they won't use will also be affected.
Offline Eli Delventhal

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Game Engineer


« Reply #80 - Posted 2011-09-26 17:30:05 »

I have been an Apple fanboy most of my life, and I'm slowly coming off of it. I had a Mac since I was like 5. I use all the iDevices. The closest I get to PC is dual-booting my Mac so I can play PC games.

That being said, I definitely do think Microsoft has ripped off a lot of Apple's ideas. And so has Google with Android. But Apple has ripped off a lot of ideas too - even their first revolutionary windowing system was a ripoff of a Xerox invention. Employees who work at any of these big tech companies often work for many of the others. In short, it's all an incestuous orgy and it's all going to evolve together as a result.

And I don't really use my iPad 2 very much, but my wife is on it all the time. She gets recipes, watches HBO / Netflix, etc. etc. It's a great device to have floating around the house for quick media consumption. I also set it up to watch a movie when I have to wash dishes or do laundry or some other menial task. Then I can very simply carry it around with me as I move into different rooms. Good stuff. With a laptop you can do many of the same things, except the added bulk of the keyboard really is frustrating and makes much of this impossible (can't just place it on a shelf or something). Plus, many laptops will be completely and totally destroyed from just a dab of water. Not so with iDevices, which are close to water proof (I mean that just in terms of getting random droplets on them, etc. you certainly wouldn't want to bring it in the shower).

Anyway. Windows 8 moving more towards tablets is unsurprising. It is clearly where the market is heading. I prefer tactile feedback (keyboard) but they'll figure out a way to give us that too, don't worry.

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline gouessej
« Reply #81 - Posted 2011-09-26 19:20:27 »

I don't think it'll be the boot options that will _continue_ to put off users switching to GNU/Linux.
What else? I saw young children at school using Mandriva Linux without difficulties. There are a lot of GNU/Linux distros, some of them are very easy to use (Mageia, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora). There are a lot of games on Linux but only a few commercial games, I think it is one of the biggest problem.

Offline pjt33
« Reply #82 - Posted 2011-09-26 20:37:18 »

There are a lot of GNU/Linux distros, some of them are very easy to use (Mageia, Mandriva, Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora). There are a lot of games on Linux but only a few commercial games, I think it is one of the biggest problem.
I don't think you've used Ubuntu in the past year. It's gone downhill - my impression is that they've started focussing on novelty and lost the focus on quality.
Online princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


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« Reply #83 - Posted 2011-09-26 20:48:02 »

My previously working Ubuntu 10 (with almost nothing freaky done to it whatsoever, it was supposed to be a test rig) totally broke and won't boot after I tried upgrading it to 11. So I gave up on it. Eventually I'll have to bite the bullet and try it again of course.

Cas Smiley

Offline sproingie

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« Reply #84 - Posted 2011-09-26 21:44:11 »

Maybe I'm just a postmodern sort of guy, but I'm completely unmoved by "Company A Ripped off Company B".  I don't care if they stole every line of source code from other people as long as it works.  Well I do for different reasons, but the pedigree of the code has jack flippin' all to do with the experience of using it.
Online Cero
« Reply #85 - Posted 2011-09-26 22:03:04 »

I don't like Unity and all
So I moved to Mint, which is awesome.

One thing I like is that these Ubuntu and Mint Distros now all have all the codecs installed by default. Very nice.

Offline Gudradain
« Reply #86 - Posted 2011-09-27 03:52:36 »

There are a lot of GNU/Linux distros, [...] I think it is one of the biggest problem.

Ok sorry for the misquote. But, isn't that a problem? (I'm not really used to Linux system so I don't know but usually having many different OS is never a good idea when you need to put code that work on them all)
Offline Roquen
« Reply #87 - Posted 2011-09-27 14:50:34 »

I don't follow your reasoning. Those who want to buy cheap hardware and don't want to subsidise Microsoft by buying a licence they won't use will also be affected.

Let me try another way.

  • secure boot
  • hardware currently doesn't have Pkey of desired provider
  • doesn't have/cannot get a tool to add Pkey of said provider
  • cannot disable secure boot

Maybe my understanding of the current demographic of marginal OSes is off, but this chain of events seems pretty unlikely to me.  As a margainal OS user my concern level over this is about zero.  On the flip side I'm happy that my future hardware will be just a little bit more secure.

Quote
GNU/Linux

I've never understood this designation.  What does it "really" mean other than FSF could never get their act together and make an OS so they ride on the "coat-tails" of Linux.  My windows box has more GNU software installed than any of my linux boxes..should I start calling it:  GNU/Win7?
Online princec

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« Reply #88 - Posted 2011-09-27 15:13:53 »

Just a touch of the old ego I think. You know what programmers are like.

Cas Smiley

Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #89 - Posted 2011-09-27 22:30:13 »

I think FSF's reasoning for really pushing the term 'GNU/Linux' is that Linux distro's rely heavily on GNU software to run. In practical terms, you cannot have a Linux distro that did not contain GNU software, however you could have a Windows system which didn't contain any. I think it's partly also that they feel unappreciated since a lot of effort has been put into building GNU software, which in turn has helped to push Linux, such as GCC.

I think it's a bit of a contradictory argument. The whole point of having 'free as in freedom' is so we don't have to adhere to silly rules like referring to 'Linux' as 'GNU/Linux'.

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