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  State of Profit  (Read 43362 times)
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Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
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« Reply #300 - Posted 2011-08-29 14:27:38 »

Do you have to reload the world when zooming back in? Can't you cache the world that you left?

If you zoom in where you zoomed out it is cached. If you zoom in somewhere else it downloads that part of the world. I don't want to keep the whole world in memory on the client and get all updates about things being built in the whole world.

yay, 300 replies Smiley

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 605
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #301 - Posted 2011-08-29 20:57:45 »

I think the 'reputation' feature is very dangerous and extremely hard to balance, as it's an artifical 'patch' to a situation deemed 'unfair': hijacking other peoples cities.

It's a vicious circle: one screwup will lead to a low reputation, which leads to less passengers, which makes you unable to expand in the city due to lack of funds, which makes the queues in the bus stations longer, which makes your reputation worse, which makes you finally hated, at which point all is lost.

Emo

(What I'm trying to say that you want to avoid a feedback-loop at all costs)

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Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #302 - Posted 2011-08-29 21:25:27 »

I think the 'reputation' feature is very dangerous and extremely hard to balance, as it's an artifical 'patch' to a situation deemed 'unfair': hijacking other peoples cities.

It's a vicious circle: one screwup will lead to a low reputation, which leads to less passengers, which makes you unable to expand in the city due to lack of funds, which makes the queues in the bus stations longer, which makes your reputation worse, which makes you finally hated, at which point all is lost.

Emo

(What I'm trying to say that you want to avoid a feedback-loop at all costs)

Hi Riven,

I agree that it's really hard to balance but I hope (and believe) that the future versions will improve upon it. What I think will help is:
  • Farms, it will make cities grow slower and more controlled, making it easier to anticipate how many buses you'll have to put in a city to keep the station empty
  • Marketing, if you screw up in one city but have some money you'll be able to buy reputation using money. You won't be able to go all the way up to majestic or godlike but you'll at least be able to improve to good or very good. Planting trees has similar possibilities at the moment but there is a limit to how many trees you can plant around a city and they only give you a few reputation points
  • More players, when there are more players and several people build in the same city the other feedback-loop (of when you are alone in the city) will be broken as long as you have income from other places. When you lose reputation you'll get less passengers (and the other player will get more), making it easier for you to transport enough to not lose reputation anymore
  • Research, when your focus goes away from only expanding and turns somewhat towards improving what you already have you'll not risk expanding all over the world and losing focus of where your reputation is running into problems

There is a quick way now already to fix an hated stance. Make sure you have enough buses going to the city and build 100 trees (which will take you away from hated), as long as you pick up the passengers coming your reputation will start growing again.

Am I just rambling or do you think it might work? Wink

Kind regards,
Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 605
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #303 - Posted 2011-08-29 21:46:30 »

As this game will heavily rely on 'balance', especially once there are more and more factors weighing in, I think the only way to keep it both manageable and understandable for your player (very important!), is to model your game after reality. In the real world, 'reputation' is easily gained and lost, and hardly affects the amount passengers will travel, it'll only make them grumpy. If you're the only transporter in town, regardless of whether you're hated or not, people will take that bus. They will not sit at home, watching their garden, hoping somebody of the bus company will plant some trees nearby Smiley

I might sound like I'm running the place (?), but I really enjoy the game (!), and would love to see the least possible 'unexpected variables' that have a big impact on the gameplay.

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Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline Bonbon-Chan

JGO Coder


Medals: 12



« Reply #304 - Posted 2011-08-29 21:59:21 »

I agree on the fact that reputation should influance repartition of passagers between station (A station must have always a minimum of passager though).
The total amound of passagers of a city should only influance base on the size of the city.

To do something great, for each house, you should distribute a amount of passager to nearby station base on a random number and reputation (something like 20% chance to go to this station, 30% to another, 5%, ...)
But doing so seems really CPU consuming (I don't know how you deal internaly).

Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #305 - Posted 2011-08-29 22:23:05 »

As this game will heavily rely on 'balance', especially once there are more and more factors weighing in, I think the only way to keep it both manageable and understandable for your player (very important!), is to model your game after reality. In the real world, 'reputation' is easily gained and lost, and hardly affects the amount passengers will travel, it'll only make them grumpy. If you're the only transporter in town, regardless of whether you're hated or not, people will take that bus. They will not sit at home, watching their garden, hoping somebody of the bus company will plant some trees nearby Smiley

After the events during the previous two or so weeks I agree that there should be a minimum reputation of 1 or so instead of 0. That means that if you're alone in the city you'll get all passengers, and if there is another person with 100 rep you'll get 1/101th of the passengers. Reputation should be logical and I'm spending more time on explaining things around it than adding new features to improve the system.

I might sound like I'm running the place (?), but I really enjoy the game (!), and would love to see the least possible 'unexpected variables' that have a big impact on the gameplay.

I honestly, truly, do not mind at all Smiley

I agree on the fact that reputation should influance repartition of passagers between station (A station must have always a minimum of passager though).
The total amound of passagers of a city should only influance base on the size of the city.

(Almost) agreed, expect it in the next restart of the server. You'll still get a bonus to your passengers if you have a great reputation, but the base passengers that everyone will share will be constant.

To do something great, for each house, you should distribute a amount of passager to nearby station base on a random number and reputation (something like 20% chance to go to this station, 30% to another, 5%, ...)
But doing so seems really CPU consuming (I don't know how you deal internaly).

That way is what I actually had in mind when I started thinking about passengers (and the missis always wanted it like that as well) but to make the calculation a lot quicker it goes like this:
Get all stations in the city
For each station add up houses within 4 squares*reputation
Split up the above number to give each station a share of the total number of passengers the city can provide, based upon houses within 4 squares and reputation.
If the player has more than Neutral reputation, give them some bonus passengers (caps out at 50% if you're godlike).

Kind regards,
Mike

EDIT: Right, the server is running in debug mode, changed it and it's visible. If you're hated and so are the others in the city you will still get lots of passengers. If so, increase your reputation and the others won't get hardly any passengers at all  Roll Eyes

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #306 - Posted 2011-09-02 23:48:14 »

Research is added, only farms left before reset Smiley

If you don't browse the forum of the game, here are the latest updates:

2nd of September 2011
New:
Research! There are four kind of research at the moment, bus speed, bus capacity, station capacity and station load time. Click here for a more detailed post about it

Modified:
Buses now carry 30 passengers instead of 50
Bus maintenance is halved
Stations can now hold half as many passengers
The economy overview page now uses . delimiters in the numbers
The economy overview page now displays the statistics for two days ago
The economy overview now displays money spent on research
Improved the layout and changed some items around in the economy overview page
When setting the destination of a vehicle you can now click on another station window to tell the vehicle to go there
Removing stations now give you some 4000 instead of costing you 4000, this to allow people with negative numbers to be able to raze unprofitable stations
Vehicles always pay maintenance, even if no end station is set

----------

31st of August 2011
New:
There is now an economy overview page that displays information about what all incomes and expenses are for yesterday and today (in game time, one day is 2 hours as will be possible to see on the game time clock once implemented)

Modified:
You can no longer by accident scroll a list when clicking making you click on something you didn't mean to
The vehicle list and window now displays profit per day (in game, 2 hours) to be in line with the other preparations for in game time
The station list now displays the cost for each station and it's sortable, if your maintenance on a station is huge it will help to build another station in the city to off load the first one
The station window now displays the maintenance per in game day instead of hour so it is relevant with vehicle profits

Bugs:
Fixed a page cache problem that could give you the wrong pages when browsing around

----------

30th of August 2011
New:
All server side code for statistics is finished, now just to make a page so it's visible for you

Modified:
Increased the vehicle maintenance cost significantly
Lowered the station maintenance cost when having a ton of passengers coming to a single station
Lowered the chance that city houses only follow straight roads instead of going their own way
When trying to build too long tunnels/bridges there is a message about it instead of nothing happening
Improved the performance of the station list window
Sorting on name in the vehicle window list now gives the correct order of 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8... instead of 1-10-100-101...2-20-200-201...
Renamed some cities with not desired names

Bugs:
Fixed a bug where it wasn't possible to remove a tunnel/bridge if there was no road next to it
Fixed a bug that caused vehicles to drive on forever if they moved square container while the square container was loading. Please let me know if there still are vehicles driving off road or off the map

----------

29th of August 2011
New:
Vehicle profit for the previous hour no longer resets to 0 with every server restart after the current one
When cities add houses they now remove unused roads owned by players to be able to place their houses

Modified:
Removing your own roads now give you 20 instead of costing you 20. Removing bridges/tunnels give you 60 per square instead of costing you 60
The maintenance cost for stations with a lot of passengers have been lowered and a minimum fee has been added
The vehicle profit has been adjusted to even out short and long trips. Long trips give some more money but requires more buses to uphold your reputation
Maintenance cost on stations is now displayed per hour (in the game, 5 minutes in real life, will make more sense when there is a clock). Vehicle profit is still displayed as real life hour, that'll be changed soon
Even if you're hated you'll still get 90% of the passengers of the city if you're the only one in the city. If there are more players you do not get nothing but you might very well get less than 1% of the passengers

Bugs:
Fixed a bug where you could remove your own roads, even if they were used

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline Bonbon-Chan

JGO Coder


Medals: 12



« Reply #307 - Posted 2011-09-03 08:03:32 »

I'm in the red now  Grin

No research to lower maintenance cost ?
Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #308 - Posted 2011-09-03 11:31:38 »

I'm in the red now  Grin
The game is a less forgiving for building stations without transporting most passengers or only having one station in a huge city Smiley

No research to lower maintenance cost ?
I considered it but seeing as there is so much money running around (lots of people have 50 or even 500 million), lowering their costs didn't seem like the best idea Smiley Once the game is more balanced in regards to money coming in and money going out I'll add it.

Eventually I'd even like a research tree (think skill system of diablo/world of warcraft) so there is a lot more coming in regards to research.

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #309 - Posted 2011-09-11 00:25:05 »

Tomorrow (Sunday) at approximately 12.00 CET Alpha version 1.2 will be brought online and the world will reset.

The changes that will be implemented during the restart is:
New:
Farms! You now get to place one free farm with two trucks when you start playing. Farms generate food and by bringing it to cities you will earn money and make the city grow quicker. For a full list of changes refer to this thread.
The area used when deciding how big a share of the passengers in the city should go to your station is now highlighted when building a station
There is now a clock visible with the current time and date of the in game world. At a later stage the clock will be incorporated into the new menu. For a description about game time vs real life time see this thread

Modified:
Upgrading the speed of the buses now increase the maintenance cost with half of what it previously was
Removing stations now come under build/remove station on the statistics page
Tweaked the graphics and sizes of all buildings
You can only invest into research if you have money
Slowed the speed of the vehicles a little bit
Bus stations now has a max number of people waiting of 150 (instead of based upon number of houses in the vicinity), with research you can increase the capacity to 900. Passengers added still uses houses close as a factor
When you build a bus station there are already 50 people waiting to get money a bit quicker
Goods waiting on stations is stored in the database every 30 minutes and read back if the server needs to restart
Cities grow both based upon passengers transported to and from the city instead of only from
Cities always grow even if you don't bring anything (but really, really slowly), transport people or bring food to a city to increase the growth significantly
When the server restarts it continues at the hour where it stopped instead of restarting at the beginning of the day, making the daily statistics better
The statistics page now displays until what hour of today that it is displaying

Bugs:
Fixed a bug where old graphics cards could not always see the grass texture
Fixed a bug where vehicles were displayed as being on a station they weren't
Fixed a bug that could cause several java processes to linger around if the connection was lost
Fixed a bug that caused the vehicle to be sent to the wrong station when there were several windows on top of each other
Fixed a bug that would display your vehicles as "loading" and never leave if you stopped them last time you were logged in

Happy playing! Smiley

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #310 - Posted 2011-09-11 12:32:07 »

Version 1.2 is now up and running Pointing, I've updated the post above with the final changes.

Good luck!

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #311 - Posted 2011-09-17 23:50:21 »

Hi guys,

I'm in need of some uber java/game design knowledge (which is why I turn to you! Wink). I'd like to make the world twice as big for the next reset (and possibly even bigger in the future if I want to fit 1000 players in one map) but the map you download when starting up the game is now already about 1mb, which is too big imo. I create the map once every 20 minutes to not lag too far behind when it comes to roads being pulled and landscape changing height. The map is stored as a png of 3200px*3200px and is downloaded by the applet from the webserver. I have some ideas but for every idea I come up with I find at least one reason why it's a bad idea.

Option: Split the map up into smaller pieces and stream the map to the client when necessary a la google maps.
 - Constant polling of data and delays, seeing as people tend to zoom all the way out quite often it'll have to download most of the map anyway as on a high resolution you'll see 1920 of the 3600 pixels

Option: Make the map 1/4th of the size, when generating it take the average height for the height color and have houses/roads color the map even though only one of the squares is a road (or else you won't see all roads)
 - Worse quality of the map, might miss important information, doesn't scale when making the world even bigger, more difficult to see how big a city is or where to draw a road without having to create tunnels/bridges

Any nice ideas guys?

Kind regards,
Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 605
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #312 - Posted 2011-09-18 00:15:36 »

combination of splitting and mipmapping

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Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #313 - Posted 2011-09-18 00:20:42 »

That's a cryptic answer ;-)

I'm already mipmapping it on the opengl side of things, and that doesn't help on download size/speed when starting up the game. I'm guessing you mean something else though (combining pixels on the server to create several qualities of the map? Something like my option 2?)

If you mean splitting up the png into smaller pieces on the server then the client will have to wait while it downloads each piece instead of it being fluent, right (option 1)?

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 605
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #314 - Posted 2011-09-18 01:32:52 »

First let me say I don't like the zoom-out feature too much (to reveal the whole map), because it takes away from discovery.

=> Option 2

but create a couple of versions: 1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, each with 1 road = 1 pixel

display the one appropriate to the zooming level.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #315 - Posted 2011-09-18 01:40:30 »

I actually didn't connect the zoom out feature with taking away from discovery but it's a definitely a nice point. I'm not sure about fog of war in a game like this and only allowing people to zoom out a bit and having to scroll around the whole map seems more like an annoying limitation than discovering the world. Did you have anything else in mind seeing as some kind of map is needed, especially when your empire starts spreading over the map.

As for the initial idea, several mipmapped versions and only streaming the necessary ones it is (hello google maps Smiley).

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline counterp

Senior Member


Medals: 11



« Reply #316 - Posted 2011-09-18 06:51:13 »

1mb for the map? how are you storing tiles? how many tiles do you have?
Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #317 - Posted 2011-09-18 08:53:06 »

I'm creating a png where one tile=one pixel with a total of 3200*3200 tiles (approx 10 million).

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline counterp

Senior Member


Medals: 11



« Reply #318 - Posted 2011-09-18 09:43:24 »

what kind of data are you storing in 1 pixel? what are all different values stored? how many different types of each are there? (like for example, you store height of a tile and then building placed on tile. you can have 10 different height values, and 10 different building values)
Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #319 - Posted 2011-09-18 09:53:21 »

Well, I'm only storing the color, there are 15 heights (I've considered only showing 11 so there only is one color for water instead of showing the depth, which should make the png smaller) and 2 other types (one for buildings and one for roads).

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline counterp

Senior Member


Medals: 11



« Reply #320 - Posted 2011-09-20 17:47:59 »

let's see, you can have a tree, a station, a house, OR roads on a tile, but not 2+ of any one them, right?

can I have an example map? (the png file)
Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #321 - Posted 2011-09-20 18:14:18 »

It's possible to have two things on the same tile (bridges) but for that reason I chose not to display bridges on the map. At the moment I'm not displaying trees (considering to change that but then you won't be able to see the height differences as well anymore). Any help will be heavily appreciated Smiley I'm at home with fever and a cold at the moment so I'm not really active behind the computer (sleeeeeep!), but I'm trying to go through the forums now and then to see if anything is posted Smiley

The png can be found at: http://stateofprofit.com/map/map.png

(updated every 20 minutes with what people built/altered land)

I removed the depth differences in the water which saved almost 10% on the file size (now pretty much exactly 1mb).


My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline counterp

Senior Member


Medals: 11



« Reply #322 - Posted 2011-09-20 20:31:00 »

What does a yellow dot indicate?:

Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


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« Reply #323 - Posted 2011-09-20 20:49:23 »

Yellow dots are farms, light red looking dots are stations.

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #324 - Posted 2011-09-21 23:51:58 »

Did you come up with any great idea?

For the people who logged in but didn't figure out how the game works the missis made her first youtube video! The sound is a bit soft, she'll try to keep the microphone closer next time Smiley

<a href="http://youtube.com/v/ra5IUIbeeLg" target="_blank">http://youtube.com/v/ra5IUIbeeLg</a>

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline counterp

Senior Member


Medals: 11



« Reply #325 - Posted 2011-09-22 03:28:28 »

I only took the information down. I haven't actually started writing anything. Not enough free time :\

this weekend I'll look into it

EDIT: oh, and how can you tell the height of a tile with road/building on it. the grass tiles have different shades to indicate height, but how do you know what height level a building/road is on?
Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #326 - Posted 2011-09-22 07:41:58 »

You don't... Smiley

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline zlandorf

Junior Member


Medals: 1
Projects: 1



« Reply #327 - Posted 2011-09-22 12:12:55 »

I've been playing a little today. It's very addictive Smiley

Dunno if it's been said already but the one thing that bugged me is when you're building a road, and you have alternate between the hand and the road. Is there another way to do that ?

edit : I also had a problem with the music. It wouldn't go through the headset and I couldn't lower it either (even with the OS sound level)
ps : i'm on ubuntu 11.04
Offline counterp

Senior Member


Medals: 11



« Reply #328 - Posted 2011-09-22 17:12:57 »

Wha? don't you load the map from the image (tiles + their height?)
Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #329 - Posted 2011-09-22 19:10:48 »

I've been playing a little today. It's very addictive Smiley

Thanks, it's not too hard to make games but it takes either luck or lots of work (or a combination of the two) to make addictive ones :-D

Dunno if it's been said already but the one thing that bugged me is when you're building a road, and you have alternate between the hand and the road. Is there another way to do that ?

If you have the road piece selected you can scroll around the map using the right mouse button (or the arrow keys or wasd). It's a good point though, the right mouse button trick should be documented somewhere as it can be seen as annoying Smiley. The video above is doing it at about 3:03.

edit : I also had a problem with the music. It wouldn't go through the headset and I couldn't lower it either (even with the OS sound level)
ps : i'm on ubuntu 11.04

I have no idea about that one... I'm using jOrbis 0.0.17 with EasyOgg to play the ogg files, did anyone else encounter something similar, and if so, know a solution?

Wha? don't you load the map from the image (tiles + their height?)

Nope Wink. The map doesn't contain all the information of the tiles, for example owner, station names, station directions and a few more things and it is only updated once every 20 minutes. For that reason (and that I don't want to create custom code for the first time the game loads compared to streaming land information while playing) I'm not using the map for height+content.

I could maybe lower the initial loading time with like half a sec or so if I did, but I don't think it's worth it at this time.

Kind regards,
Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
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