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  Advice for Game Designers  (Read 9313 times)
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Offline pitbuller
« Reply #60 - Posted 2011-05-16 19:55:45 »

http://allbinarygames.appspot.com/games/minispacewar/MiniSpaceWarMinimalApplet.html
This look more than 30 year old tech. Of course it runs 60fps. But...gameplay is ***. I can't target anything because of too sensitive controls.
Do you really say this game have 35k lines of code? How?


1978
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Invaders
This has better gameplay.
Offline tberthel
« Reply #61 - Posted 2011-05-16 20:50:56 »

http://allbinarygames.appspot.com/games/minispacewar/MiniSpaceWarMinimalApplet.html
This look more than 30 year old tech. Of course it runs 60fps. But...gameplay is ***. I can't target anything because of too sensitive controls.
Do you really say this game have 35k lines of code? How?

1978
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Invaders
This has better gameplay.

Actually, I did not refer to the Applet or J2SE version for a reason.  I was talking about the Android and BB versions.  I have not updated the J2SE versions a year.

What do you mean how? It's not a 4k game without menus, custom controls, remote high scores, and dozens of other features.

LOL you pick one of the better games ever made to say mine suck. Thank You.  You just made me very happy.  LOL..... Space Invaders is a really good game compared to many.  You might point out many other games that have/had million dollar plus budgets in todays dollars that are better than my games in many respects.  I never said my games were AAA or even B games they just are better than many to me.  I would also play the best version of Space Invaders over more than half of all games including half of mine.  Some clones are poorly done though.

Some points for my gameplay vs Space Invaders: You can't even turn in Space Invaders and it has slow bullets, slow ships, no pups, all explosions are the same, and dozens of other things are poor in comparison.  So, I do have some stuff that is better for game play.

Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 345
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #62 - Posted 2011-05-16 23:44:49 »

*grabs popcorn*
Oh this is getting awesome. Eli you crack me up!

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline tberthel
« Reply #63 - Posted 2011-05-17 02:05:52 »

Zynga makes several million dollars per day on their games. And despite their CEO being a bit unethical and them having ethics issues in the past, they are a very admirable company. They started from scratch and turned into a company that likely makes more than EA and other studios. And throughout all that they've kept their independence and their vision. Although I don't like their games, I'd rather be Zynga. Smiley

But I forgot, they're "fascists."

I wish they wouldn't get easy money.  I can think of a dozen poor developers with much better games that would enjoy the 40 million startup money they got without even having a real product.

I also wish I had unethical cheating scum like that on my side so I could have millions for so little.  Must be nice.

Offline pitbuller
« Reply #64 - Posted 2011-05-17 07:04:41 »

http://minispacewar.en.softonic.com/android
Is this right version?
I think that this review is spot on.

Applet graphcis was minimalistic and that is allways good but on that android version artistic look is changed to low detal sprites. It's bad direction.
All those fancy features + that gameplay is less than 4k games offer no offence.
Offline tberthel
« Reply #65 - Posted 2011-05-17 11:13:54 »

http://minispacewar.en.softonic.com/android
Is this right version?
I think that this review is spot on.

Applet graphcis was minimalistic and that is allways good but on that android version artistic look is changed to low detal sprites. It's bad direction.
All those fancy features + that gameplay is less than 4k games offer no offence.

I have had good reviews as well.  Why don't you list them instead.  Also that version is very old. 

Some 4k games do have some really great gameplay, but without the fancy features they will never get wide distribution or popularity.

Offline pitbuller
« Reply #66 - Posted 2011-05-17 11:48:15 »

http://minispacewar.en.softonic.com/android
Is this right version?
I think that this review is spot on.

Applet graphcis was minimalistic and that is allways good but on that android version artistic look is changed to low detal sprites. It's bad direction.
All those fancy features + that gameplay is less than 4k games offer no offence.

I have had good reviews as well.  Why don't you list them instead.  Also that version is very old. 

Some 4k games do have some really great gameplay, but without the fancy features they will never get wide distribution or popularity.


That was first results from Google. Can you please share link to newest version or good reviews. You started to talk about your games so maybe you need point out where we can find some proof to that claim: "In fact name one game that has the level of action as my games do on Android that run smoother after a few minutes of play.  You won't find it.  I get 60 fps on 30 dollar hardware for J2ME just try my MiniSpaceWar w/Vectors on BlackBerry AppWorld.  I have several million plays of my games year in year out.  I have multi-player and 3d games.

Offline tberthel
« Reply #67 - Posted 2011-05-17 13:10:14 »

http://minispacewar.en.softonic.com/android
Is this right version?
I think that this review is spot on.

Applet graphcis was minimalistic and that is allways good but on that android version artistic look is changed to low detal sprites. It's bad direction.
All those fancy features + that gameplay is less than 4k games offer no offence.

I have had good reviews as well.  Why don't you list them instead.  Also that version is very old. 

Some 4k games do have some really great gameplay, but without the fancy features they will never get wide distribution or popularity.


That was first results from Google. Can you please share link to newest version or good reviews. You started to talk about your games so maybe you need point out where we can find some proof to that claim: "In fact name one game that has the level of action as my games do on Android that run smoother after a few minutes of play.  You won't find it.  I get 60 fps on 30 dollar hardware for J2ME just try my MiniSpaceWar w/Vectors on BlackBerry AppWorld.  I have several million plays of my games year in year out.  I have multi-player and 3d games.



My Android Versions: https://market.android.com/developer?pub=AllBinary

My BlackBerry Versions: http://appworld.blackberry.com/webstore/vendor/4366?lang=en

Actually, the statement would require that you provide proof to contradict my statement.  I didn't say I had the links to good reviews.  I really should have saved them.

Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 74
Projects: 1
Exp: 6 years


Java guru wanabee


« Reply #68 - Posted 2011-05-17 15:35:08 »

(Sorry for feeding the troll)
You have 4 reviews on your games on blackberry.

These are the two reviews on minispacewars :

SUCKS
May 11, 2011 By: iamachapman
I'd rather play with my evil brothers than this crap


dumb
April 15, 2011 By: tdog24
What a stupid game a waste of time. Don't download this game its not worth it


These are the two reviews on zeptotowers:

total pile
May 08, 2011 By: thatsmypico
DL'd free version. Froze my torch twice. Didn't even get to play it.


do not buy
May 02, 2011 By: Marty Johnson
Will not work. waste of money and time. Locks phone up.

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #69 - Posted 2011-05-17 17:10:46 »

Now we're being awfully mean. Smiley

I guess I allowed myself to get annoyed. Yes, tberthel, we don't like your games, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to improve. And the main point of me saying that I don't like your games was to bring it up as a potential reason why you don't get any job offers. So maybe take the criticism the right way and try to have better visual presentation and design, and then you'll get work? And don't be so caustic?

See my work:
OTC Software
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline fletchergames

Senior Member





« Reply #70 - Posted 2011-05-17 17:37:07 »

How much of: http://www.orbitalcows.com/ is yours?
It's only Angelband (a basically unplayable demo at this point), Nanotron, Lucky's Puzzle Carnival, and an old RPG called Rabbits (which is hiding at http://www.orbitalcows.com/cowgod/ because it doesn't have quality artwork).    For Nanotron and Lucky's Puzzle Carnival, I split the profits with Eduardo, who did the artwork.  There was also someone who did the music.  I did all the programming myself.

There's also a couple of Gamemaker games that Eduardo made without my help.  The rest of the games are games I'm selling as an affiliate through BMT Micro or freeware games the creators allow me to distribute on my website.

I have programmed other games, but they were more-or-less garbage.  They were, however, stepping stones up to Nanotron and Lucky's Puzzle Carnival.  I also made 3 "rpgs" which lead up to what I'm making now.  (Rpg #1 was never finished because I didn't know what I was doing back then.  Rpg #2 had a complete though low quality engine, but never really had content.  Rpg #3 was a complete though fairly simple RPG.)  Angelband is the next logical step in my rpg-chain.  It's totally awesome except that the only thing you can do at this point is open a frigging door, but, trust me, the code I wrote for it is awesome.

Selling games as an affiliate can be a valuable source of income, though my website is too obscure to really make money from it

My current plan is to make a Rogue-like to give away as a free open source game.  If I ever actually complete the Rogue-like, that might bring some people to my site.  Then I plan to upgrade the Rogue-like to an actual RPG with a plot and improve it based upon the feedback from the Rogue-like.

The game should be much farther along than it actually is.  I haven't been working on it enough, and alot of the work I've been doing is stuff that doesn't directly contribute to what the player does in the game.   I just wrote a utility program for assembling images of body parts into one-frame character images, but that doesn't make the game immediately better.

I think we talked about this long ago, and I think you should ignore my previous advice.  I looked at your games and I think you should do the following instead:

1. Use J2AS or use GWT for HTML5 or Flash output
2. Push your games on Flash websites with adverts
I think your previous advice would be good for transitioning to 3d games, which I have no idea how to make.  I've never been sufficiently motivated to take that step though.

Nanotron and Lucky's Puzzle Carnival would most likely receive better sales on phones or ipads or some such thing than on the pc.  And they would probably be played more as free games on Flash websites, though I doubt the advertisement income would be significant.  It would still be better than the relative pittance of sales I have now.

However, I don't know if I want to invest the time to learn how to port the games to other platforms.  I have to expend a significant amount of effort to learn how to port the game and then port the game.  I recall an instance where Eduardo wanted me to port Nanotron to a handheld console from South Korea.  I bought an external hard drive so that I could install Linux and try out their toolkit.  I couldn't get my network card to work with Linux and gave up on it.  I'm glad that I did because that handheld console is basically dead.

I would have had to buy the console just to test the game on it, and I'm not sure it's really worth it.  It's the same with porting it to a phone or something.

I did port the games to Mac OS X at one point, but no one bought it.  I stopped supported the Mac version and threw away the Mac I bought just to port the games.

I bookmarked a tutorial about GWT (which seems to be a little better organized than J2AS), but I've got a bad feeling that porting games over would be rather difficult.  It seems more likely that I could develop games in Java specifically to be converted with GWT and the convert them.  But then why not just make the games in HTML 5 in the first place?

At various times, I've considered making a game in Flash, and Eduardo seems to think that Gamemaker is wonderful for some reason.  If I'm going to invest time into something new, I want it to be something that can produce better games, which Flash and Gamemaker can't.  They may be faster, but I think the main problem with my games is quality, not platform.

You have lots of assets being wasted that would make you plenty.  I didn't realize you had done so much.  Great work BTW.

I also think that if you wanted to share then I could port them to my AllBinary Platform for J2ME and Android, but I have not finished my Adobe Air or HTML5 output yet.
I might be willing to do something like this with you.  If you could port Nanotron and Lucky's Puzzle Carnival to other platforms with little or no effort from me, that might be worthwhile.  I could probably convince Eduardo that we could share the profits from such an endeavor.  However, I'm not sure there would actually be profits from this.  Where would you distribute J2ME or Android games?

In the interest of full disclosure, Nanotron has only had several dozen sales (I don't know the exact number off the top of my head), and Lucky's Puzzle Carnival has had 0.

If you're really interesting in porting those 2 games in order to get a handful of sales, email me at cowgod14@yahoo.com.  I'll have to confer with Eduardo, but we might be able to work something out.  It would have to be some kind of royalty agreement though because I lack confidence that moving the games to phones and such would solve their problems.

You might have been talking about the other games on the site anyways, but I have no control over those.

@fletchergames
did you build all games of OC without any engine? I mean, from scratch?
Only the games I actually made.  But, yes, I built them from the scratch.  My first couple of games that I made years ago used an engine, but then I taught myself to make my own.

I've always wanted to have some basic tutorials about how I did this on my website, but I never have time to do it.  I did have a very basic tutorial at one point, but I took it down to make a better version.  And then I never did.

The sad story is that I never have enough time.  Last year was especially bad, but this year is looking a little bit better.
Offline fletchergames

Senior Member





« Reply #71 - Posted 2011-05-17 17:46:09 »

Right now, I'm making a Rogue-like, so the proper thing to do would be to start with an existing Rogue-like engine and modify.  However, I'm going to still finish my own engine for this game.  I've implemented essentially every feature of a Rogue-like at one time or another (with the notable exception of random map generation).  I do have the technical know-how to generate a Rogue-like - I can outdo games from 30 years ago.

Cool, do you have any more information?  I'm working on a Rogue-like as well so I'm curious to find out more about what you have done and what your approaches to various aspects of the game are.
What kind of information are you looking for?

It sounds like you're looking for a design document that compares and contrasts different development choices.  I have no design document, though I probably should have one.  I might be willing to try to bang one out at some point.

I'm planning to include the source code for my game sometime soon.  Right now, I'm removing unused code and trying to eliminate some dependencies.  My code is unnecessarily complex because I've implemented my own custom widget system that's more image-centric than Swing and my own utility classes.  My utility classes are essentially a subset of those already present included with Java.  I programmed them largely for recreation after seeing a topic here about Java not having a Bag class.
Offline tberthel
« Reply #72 - Posted 2011-05-17 19:29:51 »

Now we're being awfully mean. Smiley

I guess I allowed myself to get annoyed. Yes, tberthel, we don't like your games, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to improve. And the main point of me saying that I don't like your games was to bring it up as a potential reason why you don't get any job offers. So maybe take the criticism the right way and try to have better visual presentation and design, and then you'll get work? And don't be so caustic?

Your games suck a bunch more than mine so push off jerk.

Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #73 - Posted 2011-05-17 19:46:54 »

Now we're being awfully mean. Smiley

I guess I allowed myself to get annoyed. Yes, tberthel, we don't like your games, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to improve. And the main point of me saying that I don't like your games was to bring it up as a potential reason why you don't get any job offers. So maybe take the criticism the right way and try to have better visual presentation and design, and then you'll get work? And don't be so caustic?

Your games suck a bunch more than mine so push off jerk.
Wink

Well I was waiting for that. If you're looking at my website, though, that's 99% stuff I made in college or high school. I can't publicly release/sell anything I've made since then due to non-competition clauses.

But I think my major contributions to We Rule, GodFinger, We Farm, We City, Adventure Bay, and Valet Hustle (which is 99% my code) should speak many more volumes than my student resume.

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline DzzD
« Reply #74 - Posted 2011-05-17 20:31:15 »

hoho! this topis is becoming hot, where is the JGO fairplay/coolness  Roll Eyes

[size=9pt]2 cents :

related to a previous post about libraries :
being employed dont mind you cannot have fun anymore  Undecided that's why my side I usually prefer rebuilt everything from scratch, including GUI/network/physics/etc... because often, when thinked enought it does not take so much time to rebuild something (anything), it ends more adapted to the project you're working on and a lot more fun to do. IMHO there is nothing more boring to be employed in a big (blockbuster) company that only use/reuse "pre-made" engine. I mean you can use software/libraries or write software/libraries for other and the second one is a lot more interresting.

about studying to get a job (in all area of work), nothing is more efficient then real work, someone who can show real project  and/or have referent people in different companies will always get more attention to anyone having any study/certification, study is only interresting for the first job.[/size]

Offline pitbuller
« Reply #75 - Posted 2011-05-17 21:09:24 »

hoho! this topis is becoming hot, where is the JGO fairplay/coolness  Roll Eyes

[size=9pt]2 cents :

related to a previous post about libraries :
being employed dont mind you cannot have fun anymore  Undecided that's why my side I usually prefer rebuilt everything from scratch, including GUI/network/physics/etc... because often, when thinked enought it does not take so much time to rebuild something (anything), it ends more adapted to the project you're working on and a lot more fun to do. IMHO there is nothing more boring to be employed in a big (blockbuster) company that only use/reuse "pre-made" engine. I mean you can use software/libraries or write software/libraries for other and the second one is a lot more interresting.

about studying to get a job (in all area of work), nothing is more efficient then real work, someone who can show real project  and/or have referent people in different companies will always get more attention to anyone having any study/certification, study is only interresting for the first job.[/size]


Some people like writing libraries and other people like using those. Both sides can be equally interesting.
Offline DzzD
« Reply #76 - Posted 2011-05-17 21:22:24 »

Some people like writing libraries and other people like using those. Both sides can be equally interesting.
yes you're absolutely right, this is two separate way and both have their motivations (this was just a personal opinion)

Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 345
Projects: 2
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #77 - Posted 2011-05-17 22:25:20 »

I like writing all my libraries Cheesy

Offline ReBirth
« Reply #78 - Posted 2011-05-18 13:25:53 »

I've always wanted to have some basic tutorials about how I did this on my website, but I never have time to do it.  I did have a very basic tutorial at one point, but I took it down to make a better version.  And then I never did.
hmm another tutorial, I want it Smiley

and I like only using library due to my low skill Cheesy

Offline fletchergames

Senior Member





« Reply #79 - Posted 2011-05-18 18:21:42 »

I've always wanted to have some basic tutorials about how I did this on my website, but I never have time to do it.  I did have a very basic tutorial at one point, but I took it down to make a better version.  And then I never did.
hmm another tutorial, I want it Smiley

and I like only using library due to my low skill Cheesy
I really want to upload some kind of tutorial at some point, but I don't know when I'll ever have time.  I can't even find time to code my own game.

Maybe I could find some way to upload an article with one minor piece of information every so often.  I might eventually wind up with something resembling a real tutorial.

Maybe you could buy Developing Games in Java or Killer Game Programming in Java.  These books were both useful to me, though they're getting a little old now.
Offline ReBirth
« Reply #80 - Posted 2011-05-21 04:45:16 »

Maybe you could buy Developing Games in Java or Killer Game Programming in Java.  These books were both useful to me, though they're getting a little old now.
Already have it Smiley that's why I said "another". More is better. My fav is cokeandcode and zetcode.

Offline loom_weaver

JGO Coder


Medals: 17



« Reply #81 - Posted 2011-05-22 05:09:34 »

What kind of information are you looking for?

It sounds like you're looking for a design document that compares and contrasts different development choices.  I have no design document, though I probably should have one.  I might be willing to try to bang one out at some point.

Right now I'm interested in game-play mechanics.  E.g., how the animation loop, game loop, turns, etc. are done.  I would be interested in seeing a demo and then that might trigger more specific questions.  It's Angelband right?
Offline fletchergames

Senior Member





« Reply #82 - Posted 2011-05-23 03:42:40 »

What kind of information are you looking for?

It sounds like you're looking for a design document that compares and contrasts different development choices.  I have no design document, though I probably should have one.  I might be willing to try to bang one out at some point.

Right now I'm interested in game-play mechanics.  E.g., how the animation loop, game loop, turns, etc. are done.  I would be interested in seeing a demo and then that might trigger more specific questions.  It's Angelband right?
Yes.  Angelband's seriously a demo where you can walk and open a door, so I don't know what you could learn from it at this point.  There MUST be better sources of information.  I think I will create another thread and try to post some links that my be useful to some people.

I think my map editor's nifty, but that's just my opinion.

However, I do plan to post the source code at some point in the near future.  I'm cleaning it up now but will probably implement dialogue before actually uploading it.  It shouldn't take long if I can actually find time to work on it.

One problem with the code is going to be that it includes my own widget system.  It even includes a couple packages of utility classes that essentially duplicate functionality java.util and other packages provided by Oracle.  So my code is sort of like a whole library of crap that happens to contain some files that are relevant to the actual game.
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