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  [] Newbie that looked for MMO's developers in London but got advice instead.  (Read 8450 times)
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Offline Frann

Senior Newbie





« Posted 2011-04-12 23:53:01 »

Hi,

I'm a Software Engineer student at the first year, I'm studying Java and I only have a grasp of it as I'm at the first year.

I like to make up projects however, I never get anything done as I always lack in some areas. Thats why I'd like to have a team that can develop one.

I'd like to start an MMO RPG/Hack'n'slash from scratches, I have the concept and I'm writing it down for my team to read in the future. For the time being however I'd like at least two members; a graphic artist and a programmer.

Graphics: I first would like to have sketches of what the game will look like and after that I will need 1 animated character + basic enviroment. The style will be like Diablo.

Programmer: You have to be able to make a game style that resemble Diablo and Minecraft, and be able to make it working online.

I'm sorry for the poor language used and low information. Feel free to ask more about it.

Payment: I cannot pay by hour, as would result extremely expensive for my budget, but I can pay by project. I can pay £50 a month each for the time spent on the project. I will eventually pay more depending of the progress done and other agreements.

I'm looking for a serious commitment in this project.

Offline niklasa99

Senior Newbie


Medals: 1


Java games rock!


« Reply #1 - Posted 2011-04-13 00:42:23 »

How much are you willing to invest in the project? Diablo took tens of people several years to create (full time). And adding an MMO aspect to that is a huge undertaking.

Also, if you will be the game designer it is always good if you can provide some referemces to previous games that you have designed so that prospective team members can see your skills.
Offline Frann

Senior Newbie





« Reply #2 - Posted 2011-04-13 07:17:40 »

I'm aware that is a big project and I have a little to no-experience, and I have got no background in game designing. I have ideas, I can invest time on it, but I need someone else to do the development for me, that is why I am willing to pay. How much can I invest economically? So far a £1000, however I need to speak with whomever is going to code for me, and see what is feasible and what not, and how long will take.
I believe I can start something up from scratches, and sure for now I am not aiming at Diablo's high standards but something more simple, and then have iteration to implement feature on it.

For the graphic side, I really, really need some sketches -  this I reckon at the moment has the highest priority to present my product.
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Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


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« Reply #3 - Posted 2011-04-13 07:18:35 »

If you're going to be the sole owner of the finished product and you "only" pay 50 a month then I guess that's for 1-2 hours of work per month Wink

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline niklasa99

Senior Newbie


Medals: 1


Java games rock!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2011-04-14 19:43:19 »

I'm a programmer, just wanted to give my thoughts on reading this. Now I'm obviously biased so take these opinions with a grain of salt. Everybody has plenty of ideas for games (that's why we are here!). But it's the implementation of them that matters (programming and graphics). Unless you have proven yourself as a dedicated game designer with a track record you will have a hard time finding someone to work for free.

Spend your money on some programming books instead. Its not that hard to get started and you will have a ton of fun!
Offline Frann

Senior Newbie





« Reply #5 - Posted 2011-04-14 22:33:26 »

I appreciate your comments.

I am currently studying programming in my own time and at uni. I had previous experiences in gathering people - for free, mostly friends - and do smaller projects and none has ever been finished. Everyone is off to a great start, but commitment always seem to lack in the end. That's why I made this post offering money, even if is a small amount I hope would have been a motivation for whom is not a senior programmer but commit on doing it. Apparently I was wrong again.

But I am not discouraged. Eventually I will finish my projects and I will be able to provide some documentation for people to actually get interested in my projects. Until then - I will build up my skills.

Thanks again.
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 816
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Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #6 - Posted 2011-04-14 22:45:51 »

There is this theory I came up with and it goes a little something like this:

Let's say you're playing a fancy AAA game 3 hours on an evening. If I were to say that I'd pay you $0.12 per hour, you'd probably not even launch that game, feeling ripped off, your time is worth more than that.

Sometimes it's much better not to offer any money than to offer such a ridiculous low amount.

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Offline Frann

Senior Newbie





« Reply #7 - Posted 2011-04-14 23:46:43 »

I don't think £50 is a ridiculus amount for a junior programmer or artist to spend a bunch of hours a week on a side project, but hey - that's me.
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #8 - Posted 2011-04-15 05:34:14 »

I don't think £50 is a ridiculus amount for a junior programmer or artist to spend a bunch of hours a week on a side project, but hey - that's me.
An MMO is *not* just a side project - bunch of hours a week. You'd be done in 50 years then.

There is a saying: Friends don't let friends make MMOs

The programming part of an MMO is probably less than 5% of the total project time.

Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 350
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« Reply #9 - Posted 2011-04-15 06:57:27 »

Then what's the other 95%? Resources (graphics/sounds)? Planning?

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Offline pjt33
« Reply #10 - Posted 2011-04-15 07:08:03 »

Then what's the other 95%? Resources (graphics/sounds)? Planning?
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Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 350
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #11 - Posted 2011-04-15 07:09:24 »

....complaints about people selling gold on eBay, etc.
ROFL!

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #12 - Posted 2011-04-15 07:15:09 »

Then what's the other 95%? Resources (graphics/sounds)? Planning?
content content content!
+ some management Smiley

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 51
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #13 - Posted 2011-04-15 10:09:32 »

Quote
There is a saying: Friends don't let friends make MMOs
This.

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Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 52



« Reply #14 - Posted 2011-04-15 10:45:09 »

Then what's the other 95%? Resources (graphics/sounds)? Planning?
Make it fun to play and balancing.

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline zammbi

JGO Coder


Medals: 4



« Reply #15 - Posted 2011-04-15 11:05:47 »

Frann as someone who's been a project manager for a MMO nearly 3 years, you probably not going to get any luck. The best way to start a MMO without the start up cash is to start it yourself. Get a small playable demo out(even if its crappy) and a place for a community to hang out, then start recruiting people who want to help in the project.


Current project - Rename and Sort
Offline pitbuller
« Reply #16 - Posted 2011-04-15 11:49:09 »

Frann as someone who's been a project manager for a MMO nearly 3 years, you probably not going to get any luck. The best way to start a MMO without the start up cash is to start it yourself. Get a small playable demo out(even if its crappy) and a place for a community to hang out, then start recruiting people who want to help in the project.


But even with this aproach there is a problem. If game/demo is crappy or even little worser than others free mmo's wich are pretty high quality nowadays you can't get players. If you don't have players no one will help with project.
Offline Addictman

Senior Duke


Medals: 3
Projects: 1


Java games rock!


« Reply #17 - Posted 2011-04-15 12:13:04 »

Don't give up Smiley

There are many niche-gamers out there. Cater those! Try reducing your scope to something that seems possible. Focus on being unique. Forget the conventions of the AAA MMO's. Of course it shouldn't be crappy, but it doesn't have to be awesome in every aspect to garner interest.

I've run a couple of muds, and it continues to amaze me that in 2011 there are still "new mudders" out there.

So to summarize: Figure out THE cool thing about your game concept. Focus on it. Make that part good. If YOU think it's awesome, chances are someone else will too. And imho, that's step one to finding dedicated people to join your project.

And last but not least, good luck! You'll probably need it Wink
Offline Frann

Senior Newbie





« Reply #18 - Posted 2011-04-15 14:58:49 »

Frann as someone who's been a project manager for a MMO nearly 3 years, you probably not going to get any luck. The best way to start a MMO without the start up cash is to start it yourself. Get a small playable demo out(even if its crappy) and a place for a community to hang out, then start recruiting people who want to help in the project.



Well the idea behind this post was indeed to make the crappy demo - but I guess everyone else thought I wanted to make WoW in a month.

Thanks again for the advice.
Offline teletubo
« League of Dukes »

JGO Ninja


Medals: 48
Projects: 4
Exp: 8 years



« Reply #19 - Posted 2011-04-15 15:14:33 »

I think the main problem here is that most of community members are grown up folks who have their own projects and do not need 50 bucks anyway . As I could tell from observing people at JGO, most of us have a "real" job and we make our own games for fun . So I don't think anyone will be intersted in making other people's game .
For me the most enjoyable part is writing what I want, the way I want, and having somebody telling me what should be done would spoil all the pleasure .
And for the people who do not make it for pleasure, but for the money, won't accept 50 bucks .

So unfortunately I guess you're on your own ... but that's not a bad thing . Start coding stuff, you'll learn A LOT and it will benefit greatly your carreer .
I have myself failed an online game (check tactics pompster on my signature), and yet learned lots of things, and I must confess right now I'm working on another online RPG  persecutioncomplex .

Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #20 - Posted 2011-04-15 20:12:27 »

Frann,

The lure of making a MMO is a temptation that I (and probably quite a few of us here) get from time to time.  There's a whole pile of technology needed (in addition to 3D graphics) - Things that aren't immediately obvious include scaleability - You can't check every polygon in the world to see if it in view and needs rendering.  Similarly you can't check collisions of every object against every other object in the world (clear that scales as the square of the number of objects).  Then there's network bandwidth - you can't send the entire world state every frame, so you need to determine whats local and just send that at an appropriate rate.  Network lag is a problem - you have to estimate the movement of all the world objects from the last known position and velocity.  Ideally you need to make players start and stop smoothly so as to avoid jerkiness.

There's the problem of server scaleability for an MMO; somehow you need to split players across servers, either real world geographically, or by game area (or both).  If you split by game area, there needs to be hand over logic as you jump from one server to another.

Then there's the level design - tricky as different players are at different levels, you need to have areas for different ability levels and have a storyline that migrates players through the areas.  There's a lot of level design so you need good tools - there's as much if not more work in those, as in the game engine itself.  I really suck at gameplay.  A good level designer is a must.

Then you need graphic and sound - piles and piles of art, including 3D modelling (Also an area of personal suckiness).

So all in all there's a whole stack of stuff that needs managing.  And unless its an open source project with enough seed design to get people to contribute for free, I can't see how you are going to get all of this for what is effectively pocket money.  The kind of skills needed are probably owned by people earning good money.

If you are still keen, after knowing all this, then go for it - You may succeed, but don't worry if it all falls over Smiley

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline Frann

Senior Newbie





« Reply #21 - Posted 2011-04-17 21:29:21 »

Thanks everyone again for the advice and mostly to make me understand better some aspects that I ignored in game programming. I bought a book called "Killer Game Programming in Java" for 2/3D and network games. So far, so good and also the level of knowledge I have is enough to understand the content of the book. Hopefully I will progress in my Java skills and make something to show you, so that you can give me further advice. Until then good luck to everyone with your projects.
Offline endolf

JGO Coder


Medals: 7
Exp: 15 years


Current project release date: sometime in 3003


« Reply #22 - Posted 2011-04-18 06:27:11 »

Hi

When I started multiplayer games coding I was doing it in the style of muds, all text based (back in '97), it was all C. Since then I have learned new languages, 3D maths, dozens of APIs, how bad I am at art, how bad I am at game design, but also how stubborn I am. I am still essentially writing the same game I started writing back in '97. Ok, it's evolved a bit, but I have thrown it all away and started again as new tech has come along.

Many would consider that a failure, but I realised early on that finishing the game was not the goal. I was enjoying the learning of new tech, so that is what I focused on, and in that respect I'd consider it a success, it has got me more than 1 job.

In 2001 or there abouts I found these forums and Java3D, In that time I have seen a large number of people start MMOs, but none have 'finished', Wurm online probably has come the closest, take a look at it. They have been working on that for a *very* long time.

That said, the contrast is Minecraft, it's not an MMO, but it is proof that sometimes, just sometimes, the indies can come up with something to rival the AAA titles. Markus has been very successful if you count players as the goal.

Endolf

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 51
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #23 - Posted 2011-06-23 10:50:53 »

Markus was the "wonder boy" of JGO, and destined to succeed, after all, he won several Java4K competitions in a row.


But if ANYONE can find ANYONE who has made an even semi-playable MMO game, with just entry-level Java programming knowledge, in 1-2 years time, please let us know. Until then, consider any thought of doing a MMO just pure delusion.

The truth is, there aren't any MMO games out there made by beginners in 1-2 years, simply because it's impossible.

Trying to make a MMO with entry-level Java knowledge is like trying to make a skyscraper with a (and only) plastic hammer.

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Offline princec

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Medals: 404
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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #24 - Posted 2011-06-23 11:02:57 »

I'm planning to make one Tongue Though not in the traditional sense...

Cas Smiley

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 51
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #25 - Posted 2011-06-23 11:04:18 »

I'm planning to make one Tongue Though not in the traditional sense...

Cas Smiley

Well, it's not like you have only entry-level Java knowledge and is making your first game Wink

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
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Offline Mike

JGO Wizard


Medals: 85
Projects: 1
Exp: 6 years


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« Reply #26 - Posted 2011-06-23 11:44:29 »

I am busy with one as my first java project but seeing as I'm busy for like 3 years already (10 or so hours per week) I guess I fail another one of your criterias Smiley

Mike

My current game, Minecraft meets Farmville and goes online Smiley
State of Fortune | Discussion thread @ JGO
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 404
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #27 - Posted 2011-06-23 14:00:39 »

I'm planning to make one Tongue Though not in the traditional sense...

Cas Smiley

Well, it's not like you have only entry-level Java knowledge and is making your first game Wink
Might as well be, it's a whole new kettle of fish...

Cas Smiley

Offline teletubo
« League of Dukes »

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Medals: 48
Projects: 4
Exp: 8 years



« Reply #28 - Posted 2011-06-23 14:02:08 »

Wurm online probably has come the closest, take a look at it. They have been working on that for a *very* long time.

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the reasons they are not very popular is because of this name . "Wurm" ? Man, what a terrible choice !

Offline ra4king

JGO Kernel


Medals: 350
Projects: 3
Exp: 5 years


I'm the King!


« Reply #29 - Posted 2011-06-23 15:04:16 »

Wurm online probably has come the closest, take a look at it. They have been working on that for a *very* long time.

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the reasons they are not very popular is because of this name . "Wurm" ? Man, what a terrible choice !
Bahahahahahahaha Pointing

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