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  Early reports on JavaFX 2 are in.  (Read 28235 times)
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Offline pron

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« Posted 2011-02-14 13:29:29 »

Initial impressions on JavaFX 2 EA have started coming in, and they seem very enthusiastic:
See http://www.adam-bien.com/roller/abien/entry/hello_javafx_2_back_to and links on http://fxexperience.com/2011/02/javafx-links-of-the-week-february-13/.
The podcast linked on the second page mentions a new non-awt plugin to be out in Java 7, and full 3D (with 3D primitives and complex animations) in JavaFX 2.1.

Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #1 - Posted 2011-02-14 14:44:40 »

Thank goodness they chucked out the pointless fx script for regular java syntax.
Sounds like javafx 2 is just a lighter weight java with a new graphics backend, chucking out the bloat of awt, swing and java 2d. Yay!

Offline Momoko_Fan

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2011-02-15 04:29:22 »

I hope JavaFX 2 works like Flash, but you can still run 3D on it Smiley
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Offline Eli Delventhal

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« Reply #3 - Posted 2011-02-15 21:57:32 »

Thank goodness they chucked out the pointless fx script for regular java syntax.
Sounds like javafx 2 is just a lighter weight java with a new graphics backend, chucking out the bloat of awt, swing and java 2d. Yay!
Potentially a dream come true.

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Offline gouessej
« Reply #4 - Posted 2011-02-16 10:02:17 »

I hope it will be possible to use JavaFX 2 with AWT-less native windowing system provided by Java bindings of OpenGL (JOGL, LWJGL).

Offline bobjob

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« Reply #5 - Posted 2011-02-16 10:12:59 »

I hope it will be possible to use JavaFX 2 with AWT-less native windowing system provided by Java bindings of OpenGL (JOGL, LWJGL).
It might not be needed, Im sure it will contain its own way of handling 3D.

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Offline gouessej
« Reply #6 - Posted 2011-02-16 10:18:59 »

It might not be needed, Im sure it will contain its own way of handling 3D.
I don't want to rely on Java3D and I prefer using tougher scenegraphs like Ardor3D, JMonkeyEngine, ...

Offline zammbi

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« Reply #7 - Posted 2011-02-16 10:30:59 »

Prism is built on DirectX, OpenGL and has a software fallback. I don't think you will have direct access to what's under Prism. But now that its a standalone Java library I'm sure someone will hack it.

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Offline pron

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« Reply #8 - Posted 2011-02-16 12:17:44 »

It might not be needed, Im sure it will contain its own way of handling 3D.
I don't want to rely on Java3D and I prefer using tougher scenegraphs like Ardor3D, JMonkeyEngine, ...

JavaFX is the scenegraph. If you're not using it for rendering then you're not really using JavaFX. You probably mean the new AWT-less plugin with other windowing system. Well, maybe that'll be possible, too, but I think that LWJGL/JOGL would have to adapt to use JavaFX's windowing, if some direct access to it is provided.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #9 - Posted 2011-02-16 16:10:06 »

JavaFX is the scenegraph. If you're not using it for rendering then you're not really using JavaFX. You probably mean the new AWT-less plugin with other windowing system. Well, maybe that'll be possible, too, but I think that LWJGL/JOGL would have to adapt to use JavaFX's windowing, if some direct access to it is provided.
Actually I would like to use JavaFX only for its 2D GUI elements and another scenegraph instead of porting any code to Prism.

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Offline pron

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« Reply #10 - Posted 2011-02-16 17:19:28 »

Actually I would like to use JavaFX only for its 2D GUI elements and another scenegraph instead of porting any code to Prism.

Hmm, kinda like the Java2D/JOGL integration? I doubt this will be possible without help from Oracle. They'll need to expose their OpenGL context, won't they?
Offline Alan_W

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« Reply #11 - Posted 2011-02-16 22:20:08 »

My favourite bit's from Richard Bair's podcast:

This release will have pretty much all the features that we had in JavaFx 1.3

We have the Web-view which is one of the things that people have been waiting for forever; essentially it's an embedded web browser; we will have the ability to modify the DOM in the browser; or attach listeners to it so you can get callbacks and handle it in java and so forth;

We also have 3D so in the current release we've got 3D transforms such as translating in the Z or rotating about a different axis. However in a followup release, the one after 2.0, we will have 3D primitive shapes and more support for 3D animations and so forth.

There's a couple of different ways that you can deploy on desktop right now; we have the ability to do executable jars. You can also run it, you know, from your IDE or from the command line just like any other normal java application; as well as through JNLP and so forth. Now in EA and JavaFx 2.0 one of the big features that we have is are new hardware accelerated graphics platform that we call Prism. And Prism runs without any support on Swing or AWT which can really help out on our startup time and performance. However that requires changes in the plug-in to be able to do that because the normal java plug-in is AWT based. So there is a lot of work going into Java 7 plug-in in order to allow you to have an AWT-less or non-AWT plug-in implementation. So that will be going out with Java 7 but in the mean time what that means is until that is into proper circulation we aren't able to run the full hardware accelerated Prism inside of a browser. So at the time of EA, we are not going to be supporting running javafx in the browser but by the time we get to Beta you will be able to run javafx inside the browser.

Seems that Applet support will need Java 7 and 3D animations will be coming (but not quite yet.)

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #12 - Posted 2011-02-17 00:21:05 »

Sounds like they're building JavaFX 2 from the ground up with startup performance in mind. Less than 1 second start-up, woot

We have the Web-view which is one of the things that people have been waiting for forever; essentially it's an embedded web browser;

Awesome. I wonder if we could then design GUI's in html/css and use the embedded web browser to run it over the top of a game?

There were reports that Oracle will use javaFX to run its online-documents suite (cloud suite or something). Does anyone know how that's going?

Offline JL235

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« Reply #13 - Posted 2011-02-17 00:57:21 »

This topic seems to be completely the opposite of the 'doors are closing' one, even in regards to my own personal opinions on Java. It sounds like Oracle is doing everything right with Java and we'll be getting new, fast, powerful stuff to use for client-side Java in the near future. Awesome!

Offline Nate

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« Reply #14 - Posted 2011-02-18 06:39:56 »

I dunno. Honestly, I didn't read this thread. I don't know anything about JavaFX. However, I still think it will suck. Odd?

Offline gouessej
« Reply #15 - Posted 2011-02-18 09:42:32 »

Actually I would like to use JavaFX only for its 2D GUI elements and another scenegraph instead of porting any code to Prism.

Hmm, kinda like the Java2D/JOGL integration? I doubt this will be possible without help from Oracle. They'll need to expose their OpenGL context, won't they?
There is already a Java2D/JOGL integration but JavaFX is quite different.

Offline pron

Junior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #16 - Posted 2011-02-18 11:59:37 »

There is already a Java2D/JOGL integration

I know, but it was done by Sun, and required Java2D to expose its OpenGL pipeline. I believe Oracle would have to do the same with JavaFX (expose the OpenGL pipeline) in order for the integration to be possible.
Offline pron

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Medals: 4



« Reply #17 - Posted 2011-02-18 15:33:43 »

Here's a new interview with Stephen Chin, maker of the Visage language, on JavaFX 2:
http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/articles/java/chin-on-javafx-185052.html
Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #18 - Posted 2011-02-18 19:16:43 »

I dunno. Honestly, I didn't read this thread. I don't know anything about JavaFX. However, I still think it will suck. Odd?

Lol, no just realistic. The java marketing machine has been a big one for over promise under deliver


Offline gouessej
« Reply #19 - Posted 2011-02-24 15:25:10 »

How can I get JavaFX 2 EA?

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« Reply #20 - Posted 2011-02-24 15:30:58 »

How can I get JavaFX 2 EA?

Its in private beta ATM.

Quote
Oracle has kicked off a comprehensive beta program with the JavaFX 2.0 Early Access release. Members of the JavaFX Partner Program have been invited to evaluate the software first, and a Public Beta is planned by the end of the first half of 2011. Participants will have the opportunity to provide feedback through multiple channels, including surveys, participation in focus group sessions, and discussions with key members of the JavaFX product team.

You can sign up here to be alerted once its available.
Offline JFXJoe

Junior Newbie





« Reply #21 - Posted 2011-02-25 10:34:44 »

Hey Guys,

I'm glad to see some excitement about javafx 2. My name is Joe and I am one of the main engineers working on Prism. I'll be looking to spend some more time on these forums to hopefully get a sense of what you guys are looking for or don't like about what we are doing. Understand we are doing the best we can to get you the best java apis possible.

To clear up some things (as best I can without spilling the beans)....

Quote
Thank goodness they chucked out the pointless fx script for regular java syntax.

I personally think fx script was great. You could do a lot of neat things in that language that are verbose to do in Java.

Quote
Sounds like javafx 2 is just a lighter weight java with a new graphics backend, chucking out the bloat of awt, swing and java 2d. Yay!


That is a fairly accurate statement. Prism is very j2d esque in the sense that the shaders accelerate a lot of 2D paths. It is not trivial however to hardware accelerate every render path, but it is something we are working on doing.

Quote
I hope JavaFX 2 works like Flash, but you can still run 3D on it

I am working day and night for this to become a reality SOME day. full 3d support wont be in 2.0, but the future looks promising  Wink Wink Wink.

Quote
I hope it will be possible to use JavaFX 2 with AWT-less native windowing system provided by Java bindings of OpenGL (JOGL, LWJGL).
It might not be needed, Im sure it will contain its own way of handling 3D.

Yep, that is accurate.

Quote
I don't want to rely on Java3D and I prefer using tougher scenegraphs like Ardor3D, JMonkeyEngine, ...

I can assure you that Prism will stand toe to toe with those you just mentioned. Keep in mind this will be the first real release with Prism support, just give us time.

Quote
Prism is built on DirectX, OpenGL and has a software fallback. I don't think you will have direct access to what's under Prism. But now that its a standalone Java library I'm sure someone will hack it.

the stuff under prism is not useful on its own to developers. It's the combination of prism with the scenegraph that makes it so powerful.

Quote
Well, maybe that'll be possible, too, but I think that LWJGL/JOGL would have to adapt to use JavaFX's windowing, if some direct access to it is provided.

If you have to resort to using JOGL, then we have failed. The idea is that the JavaFX api's provide you with enough stuff. Granted, for a full 3d game, we aren't there yet.

Quote
Actually I would like to use JavaFX only for its 2D GUI elements and another scenegraph instead of porting any code to Prism.

Interesting, but I don't see us being able to support this in the general form. I know that dev's have been asking for swing interoperability for a while.

Quote
I believe Oracle would have to do the same with JavaFX (expose the OpenGL pipeline) in order for the integration to be possible.

I think others can answer this for you. remember prism implements javafx on ogl and d3d. java + ogl = Huh?
As for integration, 2.0 will not have this, and I kind of address this point earlier, if you feel like you have to resort to using jogl, we have failed.

Quote
Lol, no just realistic. The java marketing machine has been a big one for over promise under deliver

Ouch, that stings! I shouldnt comment on this, but i hope we can meet your expectations. Cheesy

Quote
How can I get JavaFX 2 EA?
Correct about it being in private beta. You can check out our release plans I think?

Ayways, I better keep my mouth shut as to not get in trouble! Grin

I will be attending GDC next week, if any of you are interested in JavaFX development and are going. lemme know!

Lastly, I can speak for all the developers in saying that we thrive off of your enthusiasm. The applause we got for our J1 Demos in the keynote was so cool! We really do appreciate it.

And... Notch... I will be finding you...


















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« Reply #22 - Posted 2011-02-25 10:53:57 »

oh nice, that actually sounds pretty cool.

JavaFX 1.x greatest failure IMO was that the end user experience was horrid, it took too long to start and was too heavyweight to be usable for any fast games (like a shmup).

Initially I don't think it needs to be feature full, just something that is fast (enough for games) and have great usability for end users (meaning that unaware users shouldn't be able to tell that its a plugin due to how smooth it works). Just look at flash, pretty crap for anything performance intensive but just works so well.

If its anything like Unity3D then I think you've nailed what's required for javafx to get back in the game.

Looking forward to how it turns out.
Offline zammbi

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Medals: 4



« Reply #23 - Posted 2011-02-25 11:00:49 »

Thanks for answering some questions JFXJoe. Sounds like JavaFx is heading in the right direction.

Quote
If you have to resort to using JOGL, then we have failed. The idea is that the JavaFX api's provide you with enough stuff. Granted, for a full 3d game, we aren't there yet.
So you trying to make prism just as powerful as the current OpenGL libraries?

Quote
I personally think fx script was great. You could do a lot of neat things in that language that are verbose to do in Java.
Still don't know why the language couldn't of been officially supported. But still have the library able to be used by Java and JavaFX Script. I personally liked coding in it.

Quote
And... Notch... I will be finding you...
MinecraftFx?  Tongue

Is there any up to date demo videos on JavaFx 2 online?

Quote
Initially I don't think it needs to be feature full, just something that is fast (enough for games) and has great usability for end users.
I think everyone will agree to that. It has to have really good usability. The current JavaFX front page still freezes(the whole page) when the JavaFX loads.
Fast load up and instant user friendly loading screens is the key.



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Offline Riven
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« Reply #24 - Posted 2011-02-25 11:17:10 »

Quote
Quote
Well, maybe that'll be possible, too, but I think that LWJGL/JOGL would have to adapt to use JavaFX's windowing, if some direct access to it is provided.

If you have to resort to using JOGL, then we have failed. The idea is that the JavaFX api's provide you with enough stuff. Granted, for a full 3d game, we aren't there yet.

I prefer the 'toolbox' approach (like how those CLI utilities work on unix/linux)... everybody tries to create a piece of software that excels at one specific purpose, leaving the rest for other (embedded) utilities. This stems from the assumption that nobody can successfully write an application that does everything correct and supports everything everybody ever wants.

It would be a major pro if you could mix and match your own renderer and JavaFX, simply because JavaFX will never (at least not in a timely manner) provide us with "enough stuff" or simply because we want to have the choice to pick JavaFX for 2D and some homegrown/specialized engine for 3D.

That, and we want progress updates Smiley


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Offline Orangy Tang

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« Reply #25 - Posted 2011-02-25 12:12:26 »

I feel somewhat bemused by all this hype - I've yet to see a javafx demo that actually worked smoothly and provided something *interesting* that I couldn't do better with regular java and opengl.

Are there some demos somewhere that I've missed? Ones where the user experience doesn't suck?

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Offline Alan_W

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« Reply #26 - Posted 2011-02-25 17:20:32 »

@Joe,

Hi, and welcome to the javagaming forum.

While Prism support for D3D and OpenGL, means Prism will have its own API rather than a thin layer over openGL, will we be able to directly push triangles in 3D?  For 3D games, I'm more interested in data-structures similar to those used in Quake, rather than scene-graphs, because the portalisation lends itself to AI path finding based on A* searches.

From Richard Bair's podcast, I gather the new 3D stuff will probably surface in JavaFx2.1.  I assume the APIs will stablise sometime before then.

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline JFXJoe

Junior Newbie





« Reply #27 - Posted 2011-02-25 17:30:44 »

Quote
JavaFX 1.x greatest failure IMO was that the end user experience was horrid, it took too long to start and was too heavyweight to be usable for any fast games (like a shmup).

You will notice a huge leap in performance with prism.

Quote
Initially I don't think it needs to be feature full, just something that is fast (enough for games) and have great usability for end users (meaning that unaware users shouldn't be able to tell that its a plugin due to how smooth it works). Just look at flash, pretty crap for anything performance intensive but just works so well.

i agree

Quote
If its anything like Unity3D then I think you've nailed what's required for javafx to get back in the game.

I personally Agree, but you have to understand that javafx is not just for games =(

Quote
Is there any up to date demo videos on JavaFx 2 online?

Soon... keep an eye out.

Quote
MinecraftFx?  
It is not quiiiiteeeee possible to do minecraft in fx.

Quote
So you trying to make prism just as powerful as the current OpenGL libraries?
No. We are trying to make it so you don't need to refer to it as "OpenGL libraries". Think of unity.

Quote
I feel somewhat bemused by all this hype - I've yet to see a javafx demo that actually worked smoothly and provided something *interesting* that I couldn't do better with regular java and opengl

not sure i can link anything yet... but search youtube for JavaFX 2010 javaone keynote. I was on the team that wrote those demos. come on... that isn't interesting? We managed to improve upon air hockey after the fact.

Quote
I prefer the 'toolbox' approach (like how those CLI utilities work on unix/linux)... everybody tries to create a piece of software that excels at one specific purpose, leaving the rest for other (embedded) utilities. This stems from the assumption that nobody can successfully write an application that does everything correct and supports everything everybody ever wants.

It would be a major pro if you could mix and match your own renderer and JavaFX, simply because JavaFX will never (at least not in a timely manner) provide us with "enough stuff" or simply because we want to have the choice to pick JavaFX for 2D and some homegrown/specialized engine for 3D.

That, and we want progress updates

As i said, i think providing interoperability in general is not going to work. Never say never Wink

I will communicate as much as i can without getting in trouble.

Quote
From Richard Bair's podcast, I gather the new 3D stuff will probably surface in JavaFx2.1.  I assume the APIs will stablise sometime before then.

This is accurate, however, 2.0 will be a good basis for prototyping these things. For example, A* in our scenegraph would be a FANTASTIC test, Maybe with thousands of cubes. In fact, maybe EA worthy.











Offline Alan_W

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« Reply #28 - Posted 2011-02-25 20:48:20 »

I've done a bit of digging and found an article which suggested that work on Java 3D was stopped in favour of adding 3D capability to JavaFx.  Then back in 2008 Sun published a demo that contained a library scenario3d which appears to be an early version of Scene Graph 3D (SG3D), a technology intended for JavaFx.

So I believe the JavaFx1.3 scene graph will be extended to 3D in JavaFx2.1, looking somewhat similar to Java3D, but updated to fit in with the design of the current JavaFx 2D scenegraph.

So, to get pathfinding, one could implement brush and portal based data structures and then "render" them into a scene graph for display rather than projecting them directly.  Perhaps one might only "render" a subset of the world into the scene graph, based on current player position, for larger worlds.  That really depends on how big the world is and how good the scene graph is at culling hidden objects.  How many objects can one put in a Prism backed scene graph on a modern PC and still get a reasonable framerate?

The drawback to this approach would be garbage collection, when a scenegraph is discarded and a new one is built.  Maybe one could use object pools, although this would depend on how objects are created in SG3D. This could be quite interesting.  One could use a portal based priority queue to identify geometry that should be displayed, then each of those data structures could contain a SG3D object.  When a new scene graph is created, geometry that already has a SG3D peer could retain it, whilst new SG3D peers could be created for geometry that has just come into view.  There would also need to be a way to gather up all the peers that are no longer being used and return them to an object pool.

I'm also wondering how the overlay is to be drawn, since there isn't any AWT.

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #29 - Posted 2011-02-26 04:50:06 »

Cool stuff Joe, thanks for the info. I'm really excited about your work. So glad to hear that there's a graphics dude working on java at Oracle  Cool

There's so much uncertainty about what the future is for java on the desktop so to have you answering our questions here is fantastic.

I don't know what Prism is, but what I hope it will provide is:
1) access to Direct3D (there's no D3D binding in java)
2) an API that abstracts the differences between OGL and D3D but is still fast and flexible.

The closer it is to the metal the better. To be honest, a scenegraph over the top of D3D sounds unnecessary and will probably just thwart performance. It's really the D3D part which is exciting. Everyone here likes to make their own scenegraphs.

But it sounds like the JavaFX scenegraph is already in. My queston is, will it be possible to use Prism as a minimal binding over D3D and OGL without using the scenegraph? For example, can OGL/D3D be used with DisplayLists or VBO's, ie without 'immediate mode' rendering? Sounds like this is not the case if you couldn't do a minecraft-like game in it.

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