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  Lots of doors are being closed for Java  (Read 17397 times)
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Offline ido

Junior Member





« Reply #60 - Posted 2011-02-09 15:18:12 »

They certainly never actually buy them. Or maybe they do, but honestly I'm not interested in developing the sort of game that J2ME is capable of.


Last J2ME contract I did was in 2005, and it seemed like it was on the decline back then too.

Maybe it's still popular in some remote parts of Africa or something, but I would certainly not suggest anyone to get into J2ME dev these days.

Offline philfrei
« Reply #61 - Posted 2011-02-09 21:48:31 »

Is the Tiobe Index http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html useful at all in terms of gauging a programming language's health? It seems there is a bit more daylight between Java and C & C++ right now than in a couple years. Also shown: C# & Python on the rise (how much of that is Jython?).

"Greetings my friends! We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives!" -- The Amazing Criswell
Offline ido

Junior Member





« Reply #62 - Posted 2011-02-09 21:51:33 »

Is the Tiobe Index http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html useful at all in terms of gauging a programming language's health?

It wouldn't surprise me if it's pretty close to reality - java is a very popular language, nobody is disputing that.

It's just that that's because most software out there is server/web based in-house stuff.

Java for games has never been popular and I don't think it's really getting much better.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline tberthel
« Reply #63 - Posted 2011-02-09 23:35:42 »

Is the Tiobe Index http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html useful at all in terms of gauging a programming language's health?

It wouldn't surprise me if it's pretty close to reality - java is a very popular language, nobody is disputing that.

It's just that that's because most software out there is server/web based in-house stuff.

Java for games has never been popular and I don't think it's really getting much better.

Sure no one plays Runescape, AllBinary, Puppy, or other J2SE, J2ME, or Android games...  I must be imagining things.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
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« Reply #64 - Posted 2011-02-10 01:02:25 »

He refers to developer mindshare.

Cas Smiley

Offline bitshit

Junior Member




Java games rock!!


« Reply #65 - Posted 2011-02-10 09:34:47 »

Hi guys,

While we're on this topic... I've been wondering lately whether Mono .NET wouldn't be a valid alternative for gamedevelopment.
As it's also crossplatform, c# ressembles the java language very much and seems to support all the things we're missing from Java:
- DirectX rendering through SlimDX: http://code.google.com/p/slimdx/
- Support for parallel code execution through simd: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2008/Nov-03.html
- Support to deploy on iphone & consolews (IPhone, Xbox360, WII & PS3): http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/01/open-source-mono-framework-brings-c-to-iphone-and-wii.ars  & http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2008/Feb-26.html

Now I know you guys are prob all in favor of Java, or else you wouldn't be hanging around here Wink
But I was wondering if any of you expirimented with this? And if so, what did make you come back?

Thanks!

Martijn
Offline ido

Junior Member





« Reply #66 - Posted 2011-02-10 10:47:19 »

Sure no one plays Runescape, AllBinary, Puppy, or other J2SE, J2ME, or Android games...  I must be imagining things.

Sure, there are some successful games done in java (I've made most of my games with java2d, pulpcore or lwjgl too) but not as many as you'd expect from arguably the most commonly used language in the world.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #67 - Posted 2011-02-10 13:48:07 »

Indeed, it's laughable how few games are written in Java. It's like there has been concerted, co-ordinated effort in preventing it from occurring. All that JOGL bollocks didn't help, probably deliberately designed to scupper chances of success by dividing the tiny community.

Cas Smiley

Offline ido

Junior Member





« Reply #68 - Posted 2011-02-10 13:52:41 »

Indeed, it's laughable how few games are written in Java. It's like there has been concerted, co-ordinated effort in preventing it from occurring.

I think a big part of the reason is that Applets sucked too much, for way too long (and in some circumstances they still do).

If we'd have the applet experience you can now get with a modern java plugin on chrome under windows or linux (os x is still on the old plugin) 10+ years ago I think you'd see a ton of java games out there today.

Offline princec

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Medals: 339
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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #69 - Posted 2011-02-10 14:25:20 »

What, even with the incredibly obscure rituals you had to perform to get Java2D performing vaguely fast? On some hardware? Java2D is a horribly complicated API, that's why I turned to OpenGL in the end! More irony. Anyway that ship has sailed, but it still begs the question: why no games being developed in Java now? And the reason always boils down to the same things: no console support, no phone support*. Although I'm not entirely sure why indie developers don't embrace it a bit more as it's ideal for desktop games development, as I've repeatedly shown.

Cas Smiley

* sorry tberthel but those games you've got there look and play like something from the 80's not the 90s or even 2000s, minus a decent user interface.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline ido

Junior Member





« Reply #70 - Posted 2011-02-10 14:48:02 »

What, even with the incredibly obscure rituals you had to perform to get Java2D performing vaguely fast? On some hardware? Java2D is a horribly complicated API, that's why I turned to OpenGL in the end! More irony.

Yes, I think we'd just have gotten something like PulpCore earlier if Applets wouldn't have (for all practical purposes) died years ago as far as web games are concerned.

The lack of developer interest also means it took a lot longer to get decent game libs and tools (e.g. see how quickly html5 game libs and frameworks popped up within months of canvas/audio becoming usable for 2d games on cutting edge browsers).

Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #71 - Posted 2011-02-10 15:27:56 »

It's almost shocking to think that applets first appeared almost 16 years ago. In time Java has had tonnes of development, but applets themselves have had almost none. They still feel very clunky and heavy when starting up, can be difficult for new developers to get working and have lots of odd bugs. On FunOrb they suggest minimizing and remaximizing if your applet fails to appear, and it's not uncommon for other sites to write "if it doesn't work then try refreshing the page". You don't get that type of flakyness with Flash or HTML+JS (at least not to the same extent).

But I think the main issue is that although applets are more then capable of out performing their rivals, it's really difficult to do so. For example there are editors for building pretty UI's specifically for Flash and Silverlight, whilst none for Java applets (as a result applets always tend to look like applets). Plus so many basic things have been missing like video support. Silverlight is only 4 years old and has none of the big issues that applets do (like fast startup, fully hardware accelerated graphics and video support).

Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #72 - Posted 2011-02-10 15:45:58 »

JavaFX was a spectacular waste of resources, the whole  java client side team were mending that sinking ship for months with no result. There is still almost nothing to show for it years afterwards, and it promised video playback, fast start up, integration with adobe tools, integration with swing, jogl and the kitchen sink

For me one of the biggest boosts for java games was Ken Russell the engineer who made plugin 2 (and jogl), as well as Chris Campbell and Dmitri Trembovetski  who were responsible for giving java 2d proper d3d performance on windows in 6u10.

Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #73 - Posted 2011-02-10 16:03:35 »

On FunOrb they suggest minimizing and remaximizing if your applet fails to appear
haha, I'm aware of that issue, its something LWJGL Applets also suffered from in the past but was fixed years ago, too bad funorb use their own opengl java binding Smiley.
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

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★★★★★


« Reply #74 - Posted 2011-02-10 16:04:23 »

It's almost shocking to think that applets first appeared almost 16 years ago. In time Java has had tonnes of development, but applets themselves have had almost none.

Yup they could have easily been where Flash is now but Sun just didn't care about that market.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #75 - Posted 2011-02-10 16:05:52 »

Fools in charge that's why.
Actually JavaFX2.0 showed serious promise. And it's still twitching. Might be something in it yet.

Cas Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #76 - Posted 2011-02-10 17:44:08 »

@pron:  I can't see any reasonable reason to use Erlang for game programming.
The new Battlestar Galactica MMO uses Erlang for the server, and I believe (although don't quote me on this) that it uses Unity for the client. It can handle very high number of threads, it's concurrency model is far simpler (and easier to use) then Java's, it has in-built support for deploying across multiple servers, can hot-swap code and has support for coping with failing processes. IMHO there isn't any reason not to use Erlang for server-side, especially if there is an emphasis on high-numbers of connections and scaling horizontally.

That's not to say it's a better choice then Java for the server, just that in some situations it's at least as good.

The reason I think Erlang is an unreasonable choice isn't because of any technical issues, it is because of risk avoidance.  Scaling shared state concurrency is a near intractable nightmare and Erlang's model (actors/messages) is the only reasonable solution that I'm aware of.  The problem is that Erlang is a highly complex functional language that one would have trouble finding a pool programmer capable of properly using it.  As an aside, I find it interesting that Blizzard/Activision bought DemonWare back in 2007 and WoW nor any other Activision game (to my knowledge) uses Erlang.  My thinking is that you can get the same set of features from other languages with less risk.

WRT: "It can handle a high number of threads" - We're talking about two different animals here.  I was talking about "real" threads at the OS/hardware level, whereas actor/message (et al.) systems use "lightweight threads" (fibers, picothreads, etc).
Offline pron

Junior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #77 - Posted 2011-02-10 18:02:31 »

@Roquen: Exactly, and that's why I said that serious, high-performance server-side programming is done almost entirely on the JVM. Akka is probably a great substitute for Erlang, and since more and more is moving server-side, I believe Java's place in game programming will only grow.

@Cas: I have high hopes for JavaFX 2, too, but in retrospect, I'm not sure Sun's negligence turned out so bad. The fact is that client-side is fragmented, and the only technology in consensus is the committee designed and non-proprietary HTML+Javascript. That's the way the leading hardware vendors want it. They don't want WORA. Apple doesn't want Flash. The Playstation and the Wii don't want to share games. Differentiated software sells differentiated hardware. No proprietary standard stands a chance. However, the client world is becoming so fragmented, with so many different types of devices, OSs and programming language, that developers simply won't put up with it for long, and there will probably be one or two victorious software technologies. Should Oracle put itself into this dangerous competition, especially without client hardware of its own? Well, I'm sure people in Oracle are pulling their hairs out in frustration over Sun not inventing Android, but that ship has sailed. What should they do now? It's a very difficult question. The best result they're hoping for (and the one which will probably be best for the Java community) is some sort of a favorable settlement with Google over Android, which will allow them, and "standard" Java to put its foot in that door.
Other than that - they should hold on and fortify their position on the server, and do well with JavaFX2 to make up for lost developer mindshare.
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #78 - Posted 2011-02-10 18:43:15 »

@pron:  I can't see any reasonable reason to use Erlang for game programming.
The new Battlestar Galactica MMO uses Erlang for the server, and I believe (although don't quote me on this) that it uses Unity for the client. It can handle very high number of threads, it's concurrency model is far simpler (and easier to use) then Java's, it has in-built support for deploying across multiple servers, can hot-swap code and has support for coping with failing processes. IMHO there isn't any reason not to use Erlang for server-side, especially if there is an emphasis on high-numbers of connections and scaling horizontally.

That's not to say it's a better choice then Java for the server, just that in some situations it's at least as good.

The reason I think Erlang is an unreasonable choice isn't because of any technical issues, it is because of risk avoidance.  Scaling shared state concurrency is a near intractable nightmare and Erlang's model (actors/messages) is the only reasonable solution that I'm aware of.  The problem is that Erlang is a highly complex functional language that one would have trouble finding a pool programmer capable of properly using it.  As an aside, I find it interesting that Blizzard/Activision bought DemonWare back in 2007 and WoW nor any other Activision game (to my knowledge) uses Erlang.  My thinking is that you can get the same set of features from other languages with less risk.

WRT: "It can handle a high number of threads" - We're talking about two different animals here.  I was talking about "real" threads at the OS/hardware level, whereas actor/message (et al.) systems use "lightweight threads" (fibers, picothreads, etc).
It can be elegant to have a thread per connection, and because of Erlangs green threads it makes applying this model more straight forward then with say Java. For example there are many comparisons between various Erlang built web servers and Apache, where the Erlang solution can handle a much higher number numbers of connections before falling over and during that time the amount of data it's outputting barely drops (unlike Apache). Secondly Facebook uses Erlang for their messaging system specifically because it means they can have millions of threads all waiting for data to come in. Using greenthreads is ideal as most of the time the vast majority of those threads are blocked. In short you don't have to worry if your number of threads spawns into the millions where as with Java and others you need to apply a solution to deal with that (thread pools, runnable tasks, etc).

I learnt Erlang for my final year project at uni and tbh it took me about a week or two to be able to start building complex system with it. It's primarily just the pattern matching and single assignment that makes Erlang a functional langauge; it's really on the edge of the definition and it's _much_ simpler to learn then proper functional languages like Haskell.

Offline pjt33
« Reply #79 - Posted 2011-02-10 20:16:31 »

On FunOrb they suggest minimizing and remaximizing if your applet fails to appear
haha, I'm aware of that issue, its something LWJGL Applets also suffered from in the past but was fixed years ago, too bad funorb use their own opengl java binding Smiley.
That advice on FunOrb predates Jagex using OpenGL. I think the biggest problem was caching the Graphics object and using active rendering.
Offline tberthel
« Reply #80 - Posted 2011-02-11 02:25:20 »

* sorry tberthel but those games you've got there look and play like something from the 80's not the 90s or even 2000s, minus a decent user interface.

And they are fast on 80's hardware aka slow cell phones.  Do you expect Quake 3 on a 386?  My games are much higher performing than yours on BlackBerry, J2ME, and Android phones.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #81 - Posted 2011-02-11 02:47:58 »

I think you just made an apples to luxury yacht comparison there...?

Cas Smiley

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #82 - Posted 2011-02-11 08:26:41 »

Nothing to add Smiley

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #83 - Posted 2011-02-11 13:25:42 »

You should send dog poo in the post to them, Chris.

Cas Smiley

Offline gouessej
« Reply #84 - Posted 2011-02-11 13:36:50 »

Hi guys,

While we're on this topic... I've been wondering lately whether Mono .NET wouldn't be a valid alternative for gamedevelopment.
As it's also crossplatform, c# ressembles the java language very much and seems to support all the things we're missing from Java:
- DirectX rendering through SlimDX: http://code.google.com/p/slimdx/
- Support for parallel code execution through simd: http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2008/Nov-03.html
- Support to deploy on iphone & consolews (IPhone, Xbox360, WII & PS3): http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/01/open-source-mono-framework-brings-c-to-iphone-and-wii.ars  & http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2008/Feb-26.html

Now I know you guys are prob all in favor of Java, or else you wouldn't be hanging around here Wink
But I was wondering if any of you expirimented with this? And if so, what did make you come back?

Thanks!

Martijn
Mono Touch requires Mac OS X (Xcode) and Mono .NET is not really cross-platform, it is noticeably different than Microsoft .NET implementation (look at my identi.ca account, I have given some examples about it), it is not comparable to Java. Lol DirectX is not really useful, OpenGL is better supported especially on embedded platforms, Direct3D Mobile is not very famous.

Do you know Myriad Alien Dalvik?
http://www.myriadgroup.com/Media-Centre/News/Myriad-Announces-Alien%20Dalvik-Enables-Android-Apps-to-Run-on-Non-Android-Phones.aspx
Android applications can now run on non-Android platforms.

All that JOGL bollocks didn't help, probably deliberately designed to scupper chances of success by dividing the tiny community.
It is not my fault.

And they are fast on 80's hardware aka slow cell phones.  Do you expect Quake 3 on a 386?
I agree with you. We cannot do miracles on mobile phones that have a pretty bad implementation of J2ME.

Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #85 - Posted 2011-02-11 14:59:03 »

From my point of view the problem with using Erlang for a game server isn't the language or the concurrency model, the problem is: are you going to code all the game logic in Erlang too, or do you want to use scripting?  What about physics and collision detection (which has to happen on the server to some degree to avoid cheating)?  Code all that in Erlang or use pre-existing solutions?

Beyond the mostly trivial (at this point using libraries similar to enet) client server communication, there's a whole lot more going on in the server.  Erlang most likely has ways to integrate with scripting languages but how well supported are they?  Implement your own? Check Erlangs string handling ability before setting sail in that ship.  Collision detection and even rudimentary physics? Erlang strenght is not speed in numerical computations.

So yeah, there's a lot more to consider than the concurrency model.
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #86 - Posted 2011-02-11 15:06:36 »

Beyond the mostly trivial (at this point using libraries similar to enet) client server communication, there's a whole lot more going on in the server.  Erlang most likely has ways to integrate with scripting languages but how well supported are they?  Implement your own? Check Erlangs string handling ability before setting sail in that ship.  Collision detection and even rudimentary physics? Erlang strenght is not speed in numerical computations.

So yeah, there's a lot more to consider than the concurrency model.
That's a really good point.

Offline BatKid

Senior Newbie





« Reply #87 - Posted 2011-02-11 21:02:24 »

This is such an interesting thread I just thought I'd throw in my 2c worth of rant...

<rant>
My background is in academics (I teach first and second year computer science).  Java is still the dominate language here, mostly because of external pressures during the early 2000. As I have an interest in gaming and I was forced to use Java, I decided to create a simple 3D gaming library in Java for my students (using lwjgl for rendering).  Since then, the library has evolved into something rather useful and I am interested in the Java client-side deployment options.

During my research, it seems that Java is indeed very popular in the big shops on the server side, but almost non-existent on the client side until Android comes along.

This is very discouraging and frustrating at times, as I keep running into walls when I tried to create applets that run reliably on all platforms, windows seems to run fine, os x is a pain (their own Java version does not play well with applets), linux is ok but not great.  When apple come out with their App store for macs, they outright reject all Java apps, making distribution of Java games on the mac desktop impossible.  Android is the new hope for large scale Java deployment but Oracle is now suing Google over it, further hampering the potential of Java.

It seems to me that Oracle should invest into Java technologies (webstart, applet, etc.) instead of litigation.
</rant>

Learn Java in 3D with env3d
Offline DzzD
« Reply #88 - Posted 2011-02-11 21:15:53 »

I would agree with the fact that Oracle MUST improve deployment  for client side ( but... but... I must admit that I am really happy that google is suing by someone that have enought power to sue it  )

Offline gouessej
« Reply #89 - Posted 2011-02-11 21:55:04 »

This is very discouraging and frustrating at times, as I keep running into walls when I tried to create applets that run reliably on all platforms, windows seems to run fine, os x is a pain (their own Java version does not play well with applets), linux is ok but not great.
Don't rely only on applets (especially on Mac, even the Ardor3D team has had some problems with it) and personally my first person shooter (that uses OpenGL but not LWJGL) works quite fine on Linux, Solaris, Mac OS X and Windows, someone succeeded in installing it on AmigaOS (I don't know how).

I would agree with the fact that Oracle MUST improve deployment  for client side ( but... but... I must admit that I am really happy that google is suing by someone that have enought power to sue it  )
I would like them to work together because Android is now a big player but the DVM has worse performances than J2SE For Embedded.

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