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  Lots of doors are being closed for Java  (Read 17416 times)
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Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #30 - Posted 2011-02-08 12:52:47 »

FF 4 it (hopefully) out this month and IE 9 will probably be out within 6 months. Pretty much all FireFox users are running the current version; I'd estimate about a month for them to all switch to FF 4.
ROFL. I can't be the only one who won't even consider switching in the first month because I want to see how buggy people find it, and will wait for 4.1 unless people are pretty much unanimously calling it a vast improvement. Once bitten, twice shy.
FireFox version updating is generally excellent. Unless you manually refuse it, then it'll be installed automatically. I've also been running the FF 4 betas and they are fine.

This is the trouble: these are all complicated twisty paths to extensive hair loss. This isn't what I signed up for. I'd be better off ditching Java tech completely.
That's true about most Java tech for games. Java itself is more then capable but you have to manually build so much of the cruft to get anywhere.

One thing that might help is a framework for simply building games in Java. Perhaps LWJGL with a high-level library (libraries for collision handling, OpenGL based 2D graphics and automated loading of assets in parrallel), solutions for deployment (automatically deploys to a standalone or an applet with JNLP and non-JNLP bits sorted), a boot-loader that handles "your running an old version of Java" issues and other stuff like that.

I'm thinking that people just download, unpack/install, write just the game bits of their game and then deploy. It might also be best built as an Eclipse project template. That would make Java a more desirable platform for producing games.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #31 - Posted 2011-02-08 12:54:25 »

I've got all that (in my own curious and fiddly way), I'm just shafted at the deployment stage. Sod it, I'm off to try Haxe.

Cas Smiley

Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #32 - Posted 2011-02-08 13:23:51 »

I've got all that (in my own curious and fiddly way), I'm just shafted at the deployment stage. Sod it, I'm off to try Haxe.

Cas Smiley

he'll be back Smiley
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Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #33 - Posted 2011-02-08 13:31:18 »

Indeed, first thing that happened was a virus warning in the installer. Sigh. Also realised I'm not sure I can live without stacktraces, fast GC, blah, blah. Grr. ANGRY.

Cas Smiley

Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #34 - Posted 2011-02-08 13:52:58 »

Its usually the super untouchable IDE's (namely Eclipse) and ease of coding that always gets me coming back to java Smiley
Online gouessej
« Reply #35 - Posted 2011-02-08 13:53:39 »

I'm thinking that people just download, unpack/install, write just the game bits of their game and then deploy. It might also be best built as an Eclipse project template. That would make Java a more desirable platform for producing games.
That is a bit what I try to do with TUER, someone using Eclipse only has to use a provided Ant target to generate the .classpath file (the default one works but only does not support os-dependent features) and that is all, the engine is provided, the map editor too.

What about consoles? Some people made suggestions for iphone. I'm interested in consoles because these are good platforms for first person shooters. Have you ever played with a first person shooter on Android? Except Doom, lots of them are not pleasant, you don't see anything as you have to touch the screen to turn :s (look at Modern Combat Sandstorm, N.O.V.A, Toonwarz, Dark Area 1 & 2...).

Antiryad Gx supports the following platforms:
- AmigaOs
- Windows
- MacOsX
- Linux
- PS2
- PSP
- GameCube
- Xbox
- DS
- Wii
- PS3
- IPhone and IPod Touch
- IPad
It would be fine to have such a tool written in Java.

Offline pron

Junior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #36 - Posted 2011-02-08 17:17:25 »

I'm not sure how much of a problem this is. As of now, no standard client-side environment exists, except JavaScript with its own problems and limitations (well, actually .NET is available on many types of devices, provided they're Microsoft's). So Java may have missed its chance on the client, but so has everyone else (except JavaScript). Java might yet make a comeback, and it might not. On the other hand, the client is becoming less and less important, and is used as a display layer only, while on the server side Java has few rivals when it comes to performance. It was beginning to be rejected on the server as well in favor of simpler technologies such as PHP and Ruby, there is now a flow back to Java when people are realizing that these techs are just not up to par, and make very bad use of concurrency. at the same time, in Java-land, new JVM languages are making big steps. Lift is slowly being recognized as the leading web framework for performance hungry applications, and soon we'll have a fully functional Erlang implementation on the JVM. So all-in-all, I'd say that the Java ecosystem is in as good a condition as it ever has been, and it's a pretty good one.
Offline badlogicgames
« Reply #37 - Posted 2011-02-08 18:07:37 »

@badlogicgames:  I assume you know about LLVM subproject VMKit?  The last time I looked at it (probably over 6 months ago) it still had a long way to go before been usable. Apparently they have moved away from using the Boehm conservative collector to the JikeRVM collector since then, which should be a good thing.  This could be used as a starting point for a bytecode -> native compiler.  The java memory model shouldn't be a problem as all hardware (that I can think of) insures that reads and writes of primitives (32-bits and smaller) are atomic.  However, this seems like a route to insanity.

They actually have an AOT. The problem is porting the runtime libs. It's indeed a good start, albeit there's still a lot of work before that can be considered an alternative to a an Oracle/Excelsior based solution.


these are all complicated twisty paths to extensive hair loss.

+1

http://www.badlogicgames.com - musings on Android and Java game development
Offline pjt33
« Reply #38 - Posted 2011-02-08 19:30:58 »

ROFL. I can't be the only one who won't even consider switching in the first month because I want to see how buggy people find it, and will wait for 4.1 unless people are pretty much unanimously calling it a vast improvement. Once bitten, twice shy.
FireFox version updating is generally excellent. Unless you manually refuse it, then it'll be installed automatically. I've also been running the FF 4 betas and they are fine.
I run it without admin privileges, so I'll be very surprised if it manages to update itself.
Offline longino

Junior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #39 - Posted 2011-02-08 23:37:43 »

Was Java ever an option for professional game development?

Forget it. No hardware vendor is interested in making it easy to port your application over to some other hardware. They want developers to be tied to their platforms and use whatever they offer.

Java would only stand a chance if some company would take the leadership to do it, and it won't be Oracle, neither IBM, and apparently neither Google.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline philfrei
« Reply #40 - Posted 2011-02-09 00:04:58 »

@ pron
I just read an interview with Joshua Bloch where he specifically mentions Java's concurrency handling as a big positive, given the growing use of multicore processing:
Quote
It's funny because it seems very popular to talk about Java being dead now. I see it as histrionics, basically. But I think that right now the best existing multithreaded building blocks are in Java. I think Java is poised for a little resurgence. I'm not saying it is where we'll be headed for the next 20 years; that it is the best way to take care of these multicores. But I think of what's available today, it's head and shoulders above the competition.
The interview is in this book: "Coders at Work--Reflections on the Craft of Programming" edited by Peter Seibel (2009).

"Greetings my friends! We are all interested in the future, for that is where you and I are going to spend the rest of our lives!" -- The Amazing Criswell
Offline pjt33
« Reply #41 - Posted 2011-02-09 00:59:30 »

Was Java ever an option for professional game development?
Ask Magnus. Or Andrew Gower.
Offline longino

Junior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #42 - Posted 2011-02-09 01:24:34 »

Was Java ever an option for professional game development?
Ask Magnus. Or Andrew Gower.

I will interpret it as a "No".
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #43 - Posted 2011-02-09 03:40:00 »

ROFL. I can't be the only one who won't even consider switching in the first month because I want to see how buggy people find it, and will wait for 4.1 unless people are pretty much unanimously calling it a vast improvement. Once bitten, twice shy.
FireFox version updating is generally excellent. Unless you manually refuse it, then it'll be installed automatically. I've also been running the FF 4 betas and they are fine.
I run it without admin privileges, so I'll be very surprised if it manages to update itself.
I'm pretty sure it doesn't need admin rights to upgrade.

Was Java ever an option for professional game development?
One of the problems is that there are whole exosystems around existing languages for Triple A game development; libraries, programmers, engines, support, etc. Walk into a games store and most of the top 10 games for PC and consoles will be built with only a handful of engines and libraries. Microsoft has started building similar for C#; deployment to XBox, XNA framework, various communities, indie gamers channel and more. However for Java none of it really exists. There are some Java game forum sections dotted around the internet, some home made libraries and that's about it!

Offline tberthel
« Reply #44 - Posted 2011-02-09 09:28:21 »

JL235, well Java may not own the top 10 on the big box.  Although, it does own the mobile world.

1 Billion J2ME devices
1.2 Billion Android devices by 2012

I don't see XNA, Unreal, id Tech, or other big box engines dominating the low-medium performing phones that most people purchase for 10 years.

Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #45 - Posted 2011-02-09 10:49:32 »

JL235, well Java may not own the top 10 on the big box.  Although, it does own the mobile world.

1 Billion J2ME devices
1.2 Billion Android devices by 2012

I've seen these numbers being pushed for years, but they are rather misleading because J2ME is practically dead now. Hardly any one is building apps for it and none of the new phones ship with it, it has no future.

On Android many apps are going native and with Oracles recent moves who knows whether Java will remain the main platform on Android in the future.

Java's not the top dog anymore as it once was in the mobile world.
Offline tberthel
« Reply #46 - Posted 2011-02-09 11:13:57 »

If Java isn't top dog then what will >2.2 billion phones run if it isn't J2ME/J2SE/Android?

J2ME is only dead for a big market store, but most phones have J2ME or Android.  Even WebOS has J2ME internally and WP7 has it pre-installed.

If Java is dead then who purchased 2 billion IPhones? Where are they? I sure don't see them.

My ABGDK uses J2ME for a reason.  J2ME is on the most phones.  If IOs had the most phones then I would have written it in Objective-C.  If Symbian had the most phones it would be in C/C++.  And so on...

I do see HTML5 overtaking J2ME and Android, but not until about 2020.  As such don't be surprised if you see my games having an HTML5 build in a few years.

Online gouessej
« Reply #47 - Posted 2011-02-09 11:35:09 »

Even WebOS has J2ME internally
WebOS uses OasisJVM as I said and it is no more accessible even in command line.

Has someone found a solution or any idea to run Java games on consoles? BD-J is quite limited...

Offline pron

Junior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #48 - Posted 2011-02-09 11:57:13 »

@ pron
I just read an interview with Joshua Bloch where he specifically mentions Java's concurrency handling as a big positive, given the growing use of multicore processing:
Quote
It's funny because it seems very popular to talk about Java being dead now. I see it as histrionics, basically. But I think that right now the best existing multithreaded building blocks are in Java. I think Java is poised for a little resurgence. I'm not saying it is where we'll be headed for the next 20 years; that it is the best way to take care of these multicores. But I think of what's available today, it's head and shoulders above the competition.
The interview is in this book: "Coders at Work--Reflections on the Craft of Programming" edited by Peter Seibel (2009).

Yes, that's what I was saying. It's those other technologies that have a problem with concurrency. Look how beautifully Java-world languages and frameworks make use of concurrency: look at Lift, Akka, Clojure, Cassandra, Hadoop. If you want to make a serious, high-performance, complex, server-side program to support all those mobile devices, you must make it concurrent, which leaves you with only two choices - Java (the environment, not the language) and Erlang. And how many Erlang programmers are out there?

Actually, I think that few serious online games will NOT be written in the Java ecosystem in the next several years. Yeah, the client is really important, too, especially to capture the hearts and minds of young programmers, and Oracle should put more emphasis on that, but I think Java's position in the gaming industry will only grow stronger, and, in fact, it already is growing.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #49 - Posted 2011-02-09 12:23:54 »

I've yet to see a single thing written in J2ME, running on any phone, that I would even stoop to being forced to use more than one painful time, let alone pay for. J2ME is simply irrelevant for where phones are going. It may be out there now but it'll be dead as a dodo in 2 years.

Cas Smiley

Offline tberthel
« Reply #50 - Posted 2011-02-09 13:07:17 »

Well I have seen lots of cool J2ME stuff.  Heck my little MiniSpaceWars game has several copies sold on J2ME  last month and it is just a simple space game.  It can get 120+ fps on the new Blackberry phones.

Offline pjt33
« Reply #51 - Posted 2011-02-09 13:11:55 »

Remember that J2ME is more than CDLC/MIDP.
Offline tberthel
« Reply #52 - Posted 2011-02-09 13:22:04 »

pjt33, what are you suggesting? Java TV, Java Card, CDC, and whatever else are the same shit to me.

To me it's all the same stuff between J2ME/Android/J2SE.  Sure they have some custom classes and even some system class differences, but those changes have little to do with my main code.

Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #53 - Posted 2011-02-09 13:26:31 »

There are places where J2ME is still popular, but this is mainly as 1) cheap ad-hoc games provided by phone providers just so they can say their phone 'supports games' and 2) in emerging markets where smart phones are too expensive and the networks cannot handle the required data bandwidth. Both of those are in decline.

The reality is that 99.9% of people with a J2ME enabled phone never play games on it.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #54 - Posted 2011-02-09 14:10:27 »

They certainly never actually buy them. Or maybe they do, but honestly I'm not interested in developing the sort of game that J2ME is capable of.

Cas Smiley

Offline Roquen
« Reply #55 - Posted 2011-02-09 14:17:53 »

About LLVMs VMKit:

They actually have an AOT. The problem is porting the runtime libs. It's indeed a good start, albeit there's still a lot of work before that can be considered an alternative to a an Oracle/Excelsior based solution.

Very interesting!  I'd never noticed that feature.  Assuming that it works reasonable well, then that's the hardest part solved (or being solved) by someone else.  So this is potentially a viable option for games that avoid the "problematic" classes from SE.  I'm not motivated to check, but it would be very interesting to see if someone could get a basic LWJGL demo running in native via the AOT compiler.

@pron:  I can't see any reasonable reason to use Erlang for game programming.  I guess one could argue that for MMO games you want a server with 99.999% uptime and that the bulk of the server time will be updating entities (actors).  But so what?  One can hit these requirements via other languages.  I actually "like" erlang, I just don't think its usage would be reasonable. On concurrency, you have to remember that the term is somewhat overloaded (Java vs. Erlang concurrency is two different animals).  For modern hardware the optimal processing throughput it typically hit when the number of active threads (running in a given timeslice) is some small constant multiplier of the number of effective CPUs.  Around "2" is a good guess for current hardware.
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #56 - Posted 2011-02-09 14:41:38 »

About LLVMs VMKit:
@pron:  I can't see any reasonable reason to use Erlang for game programming.
The new Battlestar Galactica MMO uses Erlang for the server, and I believe (although don't quote me on this) that it uses Unity for the client. It can handle very high number of threads, it's concurrency model is far simpler (and easier to use) then Java's, it has in-built support for deploying across multiple servers, can hot-swap code and has support for coping with failing processes. IMHO there isn't any reason not to use Erlang for server-side, especially if there is an emphasis on high-numbers of connections and scaling horizontally.

That's not to say it's a better choice then Java for the server, just that in some situations it's at least as good.

Offline tberthel
« Reply #57 - Posted 2011-02-09 14:43:25 »

They certainly never actually buy them. Or maybe they do, but honestly I'm not interested in developing the sort of game that J2ME is capable of.

I have 8 action games and an RTS game and I am working on a multiplayer game and all are very fast on a fast J2ME phone.

The next step will be putting all 3 together in one game.  3D, RTS, Multiplayer.  If that is not capable I don't know what is.

Offline pjt33
« Reply #58 - Posted 2011-02-09 15:01:17 »

pjt33, what are you suggesting?
That Cas, at least, seems to be conflating all of J2ME under CDLC/MIDP. CDC/PP is no more painful to use than J2SE.
Offline ido

Junior Member





« Reply #59 - Posted 2011-02-09 15:14:40 »

I think you're behind the times. 3 megacorporations have been investing into incredibly fast JIT compilers for JavaScript. v8 in particular makes you forget you're running JavaScript. But that's not even the point - WebGL forces you to write all graphics processing in shaders, which execute on the GPU. JavaScript is only responsible for moving things around and user input.

I'd say you're ahead of the times Smiley, its all exciting stuff but as we've seen time and time again, it just takes way too long to catch on (if ever) and technologies like Flash are always one step ahead, work better and are just a more practical choice.

One recent example of the fate of a popular HTML5 game, Cardinal Quest.

That little blog post got a lot more popular that I thought it would  Roll Eyes

HTML5 was indeed a bit too cutting edge for my taste - regardless of performance, just appeasing all the different browsers was a royal pain in the butt.

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