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  Who here is brilliant at making iOS games / apps?  (Read 8445 times)
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Offline princec

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Medals: 339
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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Posted 2011-01-10 22:04:14 »

I have a small pile of money, a rather large Java game, and a burning desire to get it ported to iPad ASAP.

Cas Smiley

Offline DzzD
« Reply #1 - Posted 2011-01-11 00:08:25 »

I can understand that burning desire... IPad give so much idea !

Offline princec

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Medals: 339
Projects: 3
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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #2 - Posted 2011-01-11 00:32:02 »

Slightly more complete job description here on Indiegamer forums.

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Nate

JGO Kernel


Medals: 145
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Esoteric Software


« Reply #3 - Posted 2011-01-11 01:00:28 »

If iOS and ObjC wasn't such a turd this would have been fun.

Offline Eli Delventhal

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Medals: 42
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Game Engineer


« Reply #4 - Posted 2011-01-11 01:35:40 »

Quote
1. Very good at Java programming
2. Very good at iOS programming
3. Competitive, rate-wise
4. Recommended by a couple of other people I can contact
5. Able to communicate daily, in very good English
6. Able to use SVN via a fixed IP address preferably, or one that very rarely changes
7. Able to work to a fixed price for an agreed set of deliverables (both of which to be thrashed out if we get talking)
1 - Yes (certainly you've seen me on JGO)
2 - Yes (I helped start an iPhone game company and now I am an iOS-among-other-languages engineer at ngmoco)
3 - Maybe
4 - Can provide
5 - My Engrish iz teh badz
6 - Yes
7 - Yes

The question for me really is #3, and also when you want development to start in earnest. I like my job, but I've been thinking that maybe I want to jump off and be independent at some point in my life. Now might not be that point, who knows, it really depends a lot on #3.

Gimme an email address and we can have a conversation. Or email me at eli <dot> delventhal <at> gmail

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline teletubo
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #5 - Posted 2011-01-11 12:26:19 »

cas, I assume you're going to port Revenge of the Titans, right ? 
My question is, is the iPad's hardware badass enough to handle all the fancy effects of RoTT ? Because if not, it could be a big fail regardless of the developer you're picking, and both sides would be quite frustrated .

(I'm not being pessimistic here, it's just that when I tried porting a game of mine to Android, I spent like 2 months working on it just to see that it would be better to rewrite everything than trying to make miracles to improve performance)

Offline princec

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Medals: 339
Projects: 3
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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #6 - Posted 2011-01-11 12:42:11 »

Android is rubbish, though.

The iPad should cope with Revenge, as it'll be ported to C++ most likely and therefore twice as fast anyway, though we'll likely have to tune a particle effect or two. It doesn't have to run at 60fps either, 30 will do.

Cas Smiley

Offline Eli Delventhal

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Medals: 42
Projects: 11


Game Engineer


« Reply #7 - Posted 2011-01-11 21:09:00 »

Android is rubbish, though.

The iPad should cope with Revenge, as it'll be ported to C++ most likely and therefore twice as fast anyway, though we'll likely have to tune a particle effect or two. It doesn't have to run at 60fps either, 30 will do.

Cas Smiley
Yes, the iPad should be able to handle it, as will the iPhone 4 and potentially the 3GS. The 3G and under are dead in the water, however.

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline Nate

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Medals: 145
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #8 - Posted 2011-01-11 21:36:12 »

Android is rubbish, though.

Compared to what? Certainly not iPhone.

Offline Captain Awesome

Junior Member


Medals: 2


Hi


« Reply #9 - Posted 2011-01-11 21:56:37 »

/agree

Saying android is rubbish is like saying a ferrari is rubbish
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline princec

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Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #10 - Posted 2011-01-11 23:06:51 »

I fail to see the similarity between a crappy Java rip off VM running on a wide range of crappy hardware with a wide range of crappy bugs and an exquisite hand-built luxury sports car?
iOS = focused, awesome, fast, targeted. Low hanging fruit!
Android = far too slow, too buggy, and too fractured to bother supporting.

Cas Smiley

Offline Nate

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Medals: 145
Projects: 4
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« Reply #11 - Posted 2011-01-11 23:54:39 »

Getting further OT, but also keeping your thread bumped... Wink I certainly wouldn't equate Android with a Ferrari. No way, not even close. Android has plenty of problems, but it is still an absolute pleasure to work with compared to iOS and shitty Xcode. No offense, but do you have first hand experience with both platforms?

I've developed a few iPhone games: Funny Call, Lady Gaga karaoke, Jason Derulo karaoke, and SingSong karaoke. Some have even done well -- Funny Call was #1 in utilities when it released and has hung around the top 20 since (currently 32). Even with this success, I'm done with iShit. Apple can take their crappy tools and suck it.

IMO, there are two kinds of iOS developers: 1) Those that don't know better, that don't realize the tools from the 90s they are forced to use are absolutely horrible, that are delighted to be locked in to proprietariness, etc and 2) Those that are willing to put up with a lot of shit to try to cash in. Unfortunate for both, but especially for the latter, the market is saturated, fewer and fewer are able to make any money in it. Also, it's starting to unravel. The golden age is over and as devices become more powerful, Flash, HTML5, etc reduce the need to pay for apps.

HA! Low hanging fruit? I don't wish your project ill, quite the opposite, but I predict you'll be surprised.

Offline Eli Delventhal

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Medals: 42
Projects: 11


Game Engineer


« Reply #12 - Posted 2011-01-12 00:29:38 »

Getting further OT, but also keeping your thread bumped... Wink I certainly wouldn't equate Android with a Ferrari. No way, not even close. Android has plenty of problems, but it is still an absolute pleasure to work with compared to iOS and shitty Xcode. No offense, but do you have first hand experience with both platforms?

I've developed a few iPhone games: Funny Call, Lady Gaga karaoke, Jason Derulo karaoke, and SingSong karaoke. Some have even done well -- Funny Call was #1 in utilities when it released and has hung around the top 20 since (currently 32). Even with this success, I'm done with iShit. Apple can take their crappy tools and suck it.

IMO, there are two kinds of iOS developers: 1) Those that don't know better, that don't realize the tools from the 90s they are forced to use are absolutely horrible, that are delighted to be locked in to proprietariness, etc and 2) Those that are willing to put up with a lot of shit to try to cash in. Unfortunate for both, but especially for the latter, the market is saturated, fewer and fewer are able to make any money in it. Also, it's starting to unravel. The golden age is over and as devices become more powerful, Flash, HTML5, etc reduce the need to pay for apps.

HA! Low hanging fruit? I don't wish your project ill, quite the opposite, but I predict you'll be surprised.
Yes, these are good points in my experience as well, although not entirely. XCode has a shitload of issues, and Objective-C is mega weird. But, Objective-C works well and Apple's SDK is robust and mostly easy to use. It's no wonder as a Java developer that you hate iOS development, but I work with a lot of iOS developers who hate Java and Eclipse. So it's got a lot to do with preference, in my opinion. I personally like Java better, but now that I've got a couple years of dealing with XCode's flakiness under my belt I mostly forget about it. Now I mostly hate developing in Ruby on Rails.

Also, the iPhone will continue to make money, but it is no longer "low-hanging fruit." Your game must be good and you must have an idea on how to market it. Because Cas has good games and a good number of fans, I think he'll be fine, but it's not going to make him a millionaire. If I made a random iOS game I'd make like $1000 maximum (trust me, I have literal experience with this) without marketing or a fan base.

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline princec

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Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #13 - Posted 2011-01-12 00:55:07 »

It's only got to turn a decent profit, and I think with the very high quality of the iPad market demographic that Revenge of the Titans could pretty easily bring in about $50k. That's about 5,000 sales to a very concentrated, affluent, hungry market of several million devices, all of which run precisely the same hardware and software, and all of whom buy their apps from precisely one place with the click of a button.

Android by comparison ... is just simply not comparable. CPU speed ranges between 500MHz and 1GHz dual core, RAM between 256MB to a gig, screens from 3" to 10", and worst of all, the OS itself is spread over about 4 major versions, and only the very latest one isn't even remotely fast enough to run Revenge at anything approaching a sensible framerate. The JIT is like stepping back in time to Java 1.1, and those of us unlucky to remember how crap that was are probably still amazed Java caught on in spite of that. On top of the vast headache of a multiplicity of support, we can either limit ourselves to the top 10% of the market with a spec barely capable of running the game, or slash the game so badly in the quest for compatibility it just ends up being a lacklustre experience like so many other Android games. And then joy of joys we get to experience the Android Market, a teeming bazaar of people not wanting to pay much money for anything, if any, and which is delivered in a frankly mediocre experience compared to the iPad's App Store.

There is nothing ideological in the comparison. I'm being a reasonably hard-nosed businessman. That's why I'm laying tens of thousands of dollars down to get an iPad port done.

In highly portable C++ btw, not Obj-C.

Cas Smiley

Offline Nate

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Medals: 145
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Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #14 - Posted 2011-01-12 01:46:18 »

I don't disagree with you that there is a market for your game on iOS. It just isn't all flowers in iOS land.

An OpenGL Android game in native code and would be a better comparison to C++. Sure, it is going to run slower if you write it in Java on Android, but development will take a fraction of the time, especially if you can port existing code. Even in Java, RotT could be made to work on anything better than a Droid, which is some 50% of the market based on this chart:

http://androidheadlines.com/2010/11/android-device-usage-by-phone-og-droid-still-1.html

I agree the Android market is unfortunately not the place to cash in. I personally have the dream that if something really awesome was released that a guy could still make a decent amount.

Offline Eli Delventhal

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Medals: 42
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Game Engineer


« Reply #15 - Posted 2011-01-12 02:07:00 »

In highly portable C++ btw, not Obj-C.

Cas Smiley

Bleh, well, you can take me off the list then. Everything I have worked on has been on Obj-C. And in any case a certain number of OS calls and the like will need to be in Obj-C.

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #16 - Posted 2011-01-12 02:18:05 »

Something like 99.7% of apps sold for smartphones are sold on the iPhone.

As nice as Android is (and there are some truly brilliant Android devices out there), it's still just a poor mans iPhone. Some Android devices are worthy of being liked to a Ferrari, but the iPhone is a Bugatti Veyron; the best. It's that simple.

Offline Nate

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Medals: 145
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Esoteric Software


« Reply #17 - Posted 2011-01-12 03:48:38 »

As nice as Android is (and there are some truly brilliant Android devices out there), it's still just a poor mans iPhone. Some Android devices are worthy of being liked to a Ferrari, but the iPhone is a Bugatti Veyron; the best. It's that simple.

Yes, great discussing with you.  Roll Eyes

Offline Captain Awesome

Junior Member


Medals: 2


Hi


« Reply #18 - Posted 2011-01-12 11:11:05 »

I fail to see the similarity between a crappy Java rip off VM running on a wide range of crappy hardware with a wide range of crappy bugs and an exquisite hand-built luxury sports car?
iOS = focused, awesome, fast, targeted. Low hanging fruit!
Android = far too slow, too buggy, and too fractured to bother supporting.

Cas Smiley

Crappy hardware rofl... Sure, there are bad anrdoid phones, but it is a fact that high-end android devices are both much cheaper (like half the price of an iphone 4) and has better hardware than the iphone 4. The samsung galaxy s is about 6 months old and still has better hardware than the iphone 4. The android os is more customizeable and apple's ridicolous censoring doesn't exist on the market as well.
Offline princec

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Medals: 339
Projects: 3
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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #19 - Posted 2011-01-12 11:45:35 »

Ridiculous as it is it's where the money is, end of.

Cas Smiley

Offline PaulReeves

Senior Newbie





« Reply #20 - Posted 2011-01-12 13:59:55 »

If you are going to end up with a portable C++/OpenGL code base and given that if the iOS device sales pays for the port it makes sense to consider android via the android NDK. The port of the C++ code to android would probably be fairly quick and hopefully mitigate any android VM performance worries. You don't need the sales to be as big as iOS devices to make it worth while.

I agree if I had a good/popular PC game that would be suitable for tablets I would be rushing to the iPad as fast as possible, then figure out if it works on the small screens of iphones and finally a port over to android using that code base. It seems like a sensible business strategy.
Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 38



« Reply #21 - Posted 2011-01-12 15:08:16 »

While I really love my rooted samsung galaxy (and would never change it with something from that bitten company), I can't think of revenge working on a phone sized device - on the iPad it seems like a great fit - even the hectic scrolling, reloading and collecting could be fun on a relative big smooth touchscreen device.

Since current android tablets are more or less rubbish or too small, I also think it wouldn't make much sense to target these devices.

BUT there is honeycomb on the way and with it quite a nice lineup of devices. With an ETA of 6 months for them, it "might" be profitable to target those android device, too.

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline princec

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Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #22 - Posted 2011-01-12 15:25:38 »

Revenge targets all high-end touchscreen devices... it's just that some targets will make 100x more money than others.

Cas Smiley

Offline Nate

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« Reply #23 - Posted 2011-01-12 15:34:50 »

I wonder how other markets such as the Wii compare? It would make sense to target the market with the most potential first if the work to do so is similar.

How do other indies handle releasing for many platforms? I imagine you start with something portable and introduce abstractions where necessary. After doing the same game for each platform, I bet you'd have some nice tips and the second time would go a lot faster.

Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 38



« Reply #24 - Posted 2011-01-12 16:11:55 »

How do other indies handle releasing for many platforms?

Most indies probably don't do multiplatform at all.

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline Nate

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Medals: 145
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Exp: 14 years


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« Reply #25 - Posted 2011-01-13 07:21:58 »

Most indies probably don't do multiplatform at all.

FWIW, Super Meat Boy is on Windows and (the very similar) Xbox360, with an upcoming release for Mac. Wikipedia has this about a Wii version:

Quote
The WiiWare version was ultimately cancelled due to the challenge in meeting the filesize limitations. Team Meat have stated "they are looking into a retail version [for the Wii], but it's also looking grim."

Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 38



« Reply #26 - Posted 2011-01-13 10:46:59 »

FWIW, Super Meat Boy is on Windows and (the very similar) Xbox360, with an upcoming release for Mac. Wikipedia has this about a Wii version (...)

So they probably started out with XNA (hmm, maybe libgdx should have a J# XNA backend ;-)) and now completely rewrite/port it to Mac/Wii.

I suspect that most indies don't think about multiplatform when starting a game, but use the environment they are comfortable with. Probably only if they succeed to make something profitable, they think about porting...


Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline gouessej
« Reply #27 - Posted 2011-01-13 19:30:11 »

ExEn even works on IPhone...

Offline Nate

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« Reply #28 - Posted 2011-01-13 22:33:07 »

ExEn even works on IPhone...
Wierd project, or I guess it is RocketHub that is wierd. He wants people to cough up cash before he releases the project. You get different support based on how much you pay. What you get support-wise is a joke compared to the level of support I provide on my projects for free. From the tiny bit of the video I could stomach and from a few comments on the conversation page, I have very little confidence this guy can actually deliver. Android support is a single line item, "android support". If he gets $2k more than his goal then he'll toss in OSX support. Somehow he has raised $2660 already!? Unreal.

Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #29 - Posted 2011-01-14 05:54:30 »

ExEn even works on IPhone...
Wierd project, or I guess it is RocketHub that is wierd. He wants people to cough up cash before he releases the project. You get different support based on how much you pay. What you get support-wise is a joke compared to the level of support I provide on my projects for free. From the tiny bit of the video I could stomach and from a few comments on the conversation page, I have very little confidence this guy can actually deliver. Android support is a single line item, "android support". If he gets $2k more than his goal then he'll toss in OSX support. Somehow he has raised $2660 already!? Unreal.

Hmm that's a novel way of doing it, interesting. Andrew Russel is actually quite clever, I think he could deliver on that project. He was my hero for a while for figuring out soft shadows in this game of his:
http://www.gamedev.net/page/reference/index.html/_/reference/105/interviews/spotlight-interviews/andrew-russell-studios-r2703

Sorry for the thread hi-jack.

Congrats with the success of ROTT which lets you do this port

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