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  Apache quits Java executive commitee  (Read 8521 times)
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Offline Orangy Tang

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« Posted 2010-12-10 01:06:10 »

http://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_asf_resigns_from_the

Yet more shenanigans in the increasingly-shaky looking EC. Personally I think this is going to hurt bad, I like apache as a group - they seem to have a good combination of practical front line experience combined with enough technical know-how and foresight to make good long term decisions. They also manage to be open (both in source, process and standards) without being all EFF-preachy about things. Without apache on the EC I expect Oracle to start making some extremely dodgy decisions (probably by rushing through some half-assed language features in an attempt to 'compete' with C#.

Thoughts?

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Offline SimonH
« Reply #1 - Posted 2010-12-10 02:12:48 »

Capitalism FTW! "You only get one go at life so; Screw you, Bro! Hey! Where's my Merc?!"

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Offline princec

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2010-12-10 08:49:59 »

My thoughts are....

hmm V8 & Crankshaft suddenly looking mighty interesting. The language is nice. It's getting fast. It's got ARM backend under development. It's open sourced. There are more Javascript resources out on the web than for any other language. HaXe will run compile for it. Eclipse no doubt has maturing JS toolage. I'll be able to deploy applications with V8 embedded and they'll run anywhere.

LWJSGL anyone? I'm actually suddenly as excited as I was when Java first appeared.

Cas Smiley

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Offline delt0r

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« Reply #3 - Posted 2010-12-10 09:26:57 »

Well when i first started coding Java, there was no such thing as the JCP.  I really don't get the big deal. Its a corporate control language and platform. Always was.

The thing i find most frustrating, is that even after the success of java, and the library's' that come with java that nothing else has really followed suit. I mean if you write some C/C++/lisp/Scheme you name it, even network code is different on each platform. I find that frustrating.

Surly in 2010 the core languages should have some core libraries that are a little more advanced than just file access.

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
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« Reply #4 - Posted 2010-12-10 09:41:05 »

Yeh, the development and competition with javascript is exciting and they'll probably catch up with hotspots pretty quickly at the rate they're going. Just wish the web was more open about the choice of languages you could use (not a fan of javascript), maybe in future they'll adopt a common bytecode that any language can be compiled too.

Agree with delt0r regarding the JCP, it didn't really work and probably better just to dissolve it. Oracle will probably be a good steward for Java but shame they are so hard on the community, they could have easily handled the situation much better without trying to sue/drive away their best innovators.
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« Reply #5 - Posted 2010-12-10 09:50:22 »

Oracle have at least starting responding to the community now with their response to the Apache move coming only a few hours after the Apache announcement. Much better then the code silence we were getting from them before.

Oracle's Response

Still rather a pathetic response, basically saying good luck but we're still not going to give you the TCK or offer you anything to try lure you back.
Offline JL235

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« Reply #6 - Posted 2010-12-10 09:54:34 »

hmm V8 & Crankshaft suddenly looking mighty interesting. The language is nice...
Seconded. Plus the current V8 engine without Crankshaft is waaaaaaay faster the PHP and Ruby (JRuby and YARV), so I'm currently thinking of using JavaScript for future client-side web development. Plus from what I've read of Crankshaft the main improvements is does is make long running JS run faster, which is perfect for a web server.

In terms of Apache leaving, I really don't this will make any real impact at all (except on Apache). Maybe Java will become more focused with Oracle having more control; I think this is probably a good thing. There are places where Java makes perfect sense and there are places where there has been lots of hand waving and good intentions with no real results (like Sun Spots).

LWJSGL anyone? I'm actually suddenly as excited as I was when Java first appeared.
The coming WebGL would make this redundant. It's supported in the nightly build of all major browsers except IE. But with Microsoft's sudden love of web standards continues they will probably implement WebGL (and maybe something DirectX based) in IE. Soon the mainstream versions of FF, Chrome, Opera and Safari will have 3D games available to play in the browser and IE won't. It would be madness for MS to not follow suit and implement WebGL!

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« Reply #7 - Posted 2010-12-10 09:58:49 »

Soon the mainstream versions of FF, Chrome, Opera and Safari will have 3D games available to play in the browser and IE won't. It would be madness for MS to not follow suit and implement WebGL!

MS are unlikely to ever support WebGL, it would mean the death of their whole DirectX platform. They'll probably try pushing something like WebDX or something.
Offline princec

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« Reply #8 - Posted 2010-12-10 10:24:36 »

I have no interest in WebGL, or indeed, in web applications. I want to write proper client/server applications, with no browsers in sight, which are a massively restrictive hassle. I want games to run on iPhones etc. using the same code. This now looks like it's going to happen within a few years.

Javascript as a language is not far removed from Java itself. It could do with a few nods towards features that are geared to raw performance such as direct bytebuffers.

Cas Smiley

Offline gouessej
« Reply #9 - Posted 2010-12-10 10:47:36 »

In your humble opinion, what does this quit change for Apache?

I have no interest in WebGL, or indeed, in web applications. I want to write proper client/server applications, with no browsers in sight, which are a massively restrictive hassle. I want games to run on iPhones etc. using the same code. This now looks like it's going to happen within a few years.
Me too but being forced to use the censored App Store is not very funny... Have you tried ISpectrum and XMLVM?

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Offline Spasi
« Reply #10 - Posted 2010-12-10 11:36:03 »

It could do with a few nods towards features that are geared to raw performance such as direct bytebuffers.

Kenneth Russell is on it.

The way I see it, Javascript+browser is going to become what Java+JVM should have been 10 years ago. It's really frustrating seeing so much engineering effort going into reinventing the wheel... and so disappointing thinking about all the opportunities Sun has missed on the client side.
Offline Matzon

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« Reply #11 - Posted 2010-12-10 11:46:24 »

The way I see it, Javascript+browser is going to become what Java+JVM should have been 10 years ago. It's really frustrating seeing so much engineering effort going into reinventing the wheel... and so disappointing thinking about all the opportunities Sun has missed on the client side.
+1 - wonder when node.js will replace the VM in enterprise setups Wink

Offline JL235

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« Reply #12 - Posted 2010-12-10 12:05:30 »

I want to write proper client/server applications, with no browsers in sight, which are a massively restrictive hassle.
I think that's quite a backwards view. I'd much rather visit your app and for it to 'just work' then to have to install or download an application.

Offline pjt33
« Reply #13 - Posted 2010-12-10 12:15:04 »

I think that's quite a backwards view. I'd much rather visit your app and for it to 'just work' then to have to install or download an application.
I'm sure everyone would love webapps to "just work", but when you have wildly incompatible attempts at implementing the spec (plus a couple of "implementations" which don't even attempt it) it's a nightmare getting them to that state.
Offline delt0r

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« Reply #14 - Posted 2010-12-10 12:16:57 »

Quote
I'd much rather visit your app and for it to 'just work' then to have to install or download an application.
Browsers don't even render even CSS consistently. Good luck with that.

Web pages are not apps.

I love my noScript plugin.

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline JL235

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« Reply #15 - Posted 2010-12-10 12:39:59 »

Browsers don't even render even CSS consistently. Good luck with that.
It's not that inconsistent. Currently the non-IE browsers are more consistent then ever before, and IE 9 is a huge step in web compliance for IE.

It's only difficult if you still cater for IE 6 and 7 users due to the vast amounts of support missing. But IMHO this is a waste of time for the majority of websites; it's only a small niche of users (typically in public organisations) who haven't upgraded to IE 8.

Web pages are not apps.
Google Docs, Office Web Apps, Quake 2 (the GWT port), IDEs, GrooveShark, CanvasPaint; there are even desktop operating systems and terminals written in pure JS. They are more then web pages and that's just what I can name off the top of my head.

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« Reply #16 - Posted 2010-12-10 12:51:50 »

You people all make it sound like java is dead/dying Smiley

Sure loosing the ASF is a loss, however the road ahead for Java is looking pretty bright

- it has a solid road map (for at least the next 5 years).
- Java 7 is shaping up to give C++ a serious run at its performance lead.
- The industries biggest Open Source and Commercial players behind OpenJDK (Apple, IBM, Redhat, Oracle).
- A Steward with deep pockets.
- The client side issues with Java are all slowly being fixed/addressed (especially for JWS, Plugin and Java Updater).
- Solid games bindings (both LWJGL and JogAmp), with yet even more solid 2d/3d engines starting to shape up on top of them.
- Quiet a few nice looking commercial games now in the works.
- Tons more optimisations coming especially with the Hotspots team getting the help of the JRockit team.
- J2SE Embedded shaping up nicely.
- Probably the strongest IDE's, build tools and documentation of any of the other languages.
- Its quickly becoming the best platform for 100's of other languages like Python, Ruby, Scala, etc, not even the web engine stuff can boast about this (being stuck with only javascript atm).

Java's never had it so good.
Offline princec

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« Reply #17 - Posted 2010-12-10 13:10:42 »

I stand by not wanting to be imprisoned in the browser. I want to make proper applications. Hell, I'd like to even make a browser in JS. See where I'm coming from? JS is a general purpose language. Imagine if the only place you were allowed to type and read English was a word processor. That's the equivalent of saying all applications should run in browsers. I don't think Google have quite got it right when they say that everything should run in browsers at all.

As for Java never having it so good - look, we're still in the position where there's no JVM for iOS that anyone's allowed to use, no way I can cut down the pointlessly massive JRE runtime to be just what I want it to be (or even tweak it to optimise it), no way I can get it to run on XBox or PS3, and so on, and it was never anything to do with the tech, it was just really bad politics getting in the way of a decent engineering solution. It's been like this for 10 years now and I'm pretty sick of it. The whole reason all those stupid LWJGL vs JOGL arguments came along was because of really stupid bad politics. It should never have happened. Monkeys ran the management at Sun and gorillas have taken it over. Bollocks to the lot of them.

Cas Smiley

Offline delt0r

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« Reply #18 - Posted 2010-12-10 13:14:38 »

Well if everything was in the browser, the app store wouldn't be so popular. So Cas can't be the only one who doesn't want to be stuck in the browser box.

And more compatible that before (regarding CSS)... Thats not a feather in the hat... It merely makes my point.

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline JL235

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« Reply #19 - Posted 2010-12-10 13:25:16 »

You people all make it sound like java is dead/dying Smiley

Sure loosing the ASF is a loss, however the road ahead for Java is looking pretty bright

- it has a solid road map (for at least the next 5 years).
- Java 7 is shaping up to give C++ a serious run at its performance lead.
- The industries biggest Open Source and Commercial players behind OpenJDK (Apple, IBM, Redhat, Oracle).
- The client side issues with Java are all slowly being fixed/addressed (especially for JWS, Plugin and Java Updater).
- Solid games bindings (both LWJGL and JogAmp), with yet even more solid 2d/3d engines starting to shape up.
- Quiet a few nice looking commercial games now in the works.
- Tons more optimisations coming especially with the Hotspots team getting the help of the JRockit team.
- J2SE Embedded shaping up nicely.
- Its quickly becoming the best platform for 100's of other languages like Python, Ruby, Scala, etc, not even the web engine stuff can boast about this (being stuck with only javascript atm).

Java's never had it so good.
I certainly don't think Java is dying, it has it's place for building large software solutions (especially on the server) and there it excels. But the reason why it excels is because there is tonnes of development in that area. But it is dying on the client side for the inverse reason (a lack of investment). Many of your points are today beaten by C#. Far more commercial games are in development for that and it has the XNA framework for building games (which unlike the Java game libraries is backed by a major software company).

And if you want something smaller and quicker to get going with you can always use Flash which also has backing and constant investment from a major software company for client-side development (plus it has far better penetration then Java, Flash plugin is typically kept more up to date and doesn't suffer from lots of trivial bugs you get with applets). Of course now you can also use JS. It's just too little too late for Java on the client!

Btw there are quite a lot of languages that compile to JavaScript including ports of mainstream languages (such as a PHP port called Phype although I believe it's incomplete) and I've even written my own: Quby. Most also allow you to write your code in a script tag (as you would with JS) and the language will automatically find and parse the code on the fly. Your really not just stuck with JS any more.

And more compatible that before (regarding CSS)... Thats not a feather in the hat... It merely makes my point.
I've had far more cross-platform bugs with Java (things that literally stop the game/app from running) then cross-browser issues with CSS and HTML (which you can either live with or work around). So I disagree about it being so bad.

Offline Cero
« Reply #20 - Posted 2010-12-10 13:58:51 »

The thing i find most frustrating, is that even after the success of java, and the library's' that come with java that nothing else has really followed suit. I mean if you write some C/C++/lisp/Scheme you name it, even network code is different on each platform. I find that frustrating.

Surly in 2010 the core languages should have some core libraries that are a little more advanced than just file access.

I strongly agree. One of the main reasons I work with Java.


I also agree with Cas. I have no interest whatsoever in browser applications or games. They seem silly, and I never use them, let alone develop them myself.
That also includes Google top-of the-line browser apps, like google docs which mimics office/open office, which is horrible. And also gmail. I use gmail, but with an email client,  thunderbird in my case, these overly extravagant ajax pages just get me confused beyond believe.

Also I cannot remember, that I ever played a serious game in a browser. By serious I mean, not a minigame/fungame. Something with a long single player, maybe a story.
Of course that may change when people use cloud computing with services like Gaikai. But that's obviously a different topic altogether.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #21 - Posted 2010-12-10 14:28:43 »

And if you want something smaller and quicker to get going with you can always use Flash which also has backing and constant investment from a major software company for client-side development (plus it has far better penetration then Java, Flash plugin is typically kept more up to date and doesn't suffer from lots of trivial bugs you get with applets). Of course now you can also use JS. It's just too little too late for Java on the client!
Flash doesn't have a noticeably better penetration than Java, you're joking. Flash is not as reliable as Java especially on non-Windows platforms. Java Web Start is far from perfect, it has its own bugs but it is a nice way of not being imprisoned in the browsers and their own bugs.

I've had far more cross-platform bugs with Java (things that literally stop the game/app from running) then cross-browser issues with CSS and HTML (which you can either live with or work around). So I disagree about it being so bad.
If you include MSIE 6 & 7, it is simply wrong.

You people all make it sound like java is dead/dying Smiley
No, Java rocks  Grin even thoug it has some lovely bugs  Tongue
Desktop shortcuts working on KDE with Java Web Start? Never.

- it has a solid road map (for at least the next 5 years).
JavaFX 2.0 has a few interesting features concerning sound and video support.

- Java 7 is shaping up to give C++ a serious run at its performance lead.
Java 1.4 was already kicking the ass of C++ in some situations  Cool

- The industries biggest Open Source and Commercial players behind OpenJDK (Apple, IBM, Redhat, Oracle).
It might be really good especially for Mac users.

- A Steward with deep pockets.
This steward is silly enough to drop JOGL and is not very kind with the open source community (look at Hudson, OpenOffice...).

- The client side issues with Java are all slowly being fixed/addressed (especially for JWS, Plugin and Java Updater).
I'm still waiting for some fixes since 2006... but it is going to be better.

- Quiet a few nice looking commercial games now in the works.
Poisonville is quite good Wink

- Tons more optimisations coming especially with the Hotspots team getting the help of the JRockit team.
- J2SE Embedded shaping up nicely.
- Probably the strongest IDE's, build tools and documentation of any of the other languages.
- Its quickly becoming the best platform for 100's of other languages like Python, Ruby, Scala, etc, not even the web engine stuff can boast about this (being stuck with only javascript atm).

Java's never had it so good.
+1

Offline JL235

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« Reply #22 - Posted 2010-12-10 14:40:36 »

Btw there is typo in my last post. I meant to type that I've had more serious bugs with Java, not more bugs.

Quote from: gouessej
If you include MSIE 6 & 7, it is simply wrong.
IE 6 and 7 usage is so small now it's not uncommon to see it's browser usage only taking up a couple of percent; even less then 1% isn't that strange any more (although it depends heavily on who your audience is).

Offline gouessej
« Reply #23 - Posted 2010-12-10 16:05:45 »

Btw there is typo in my last post. I meant to type that I've had more serious bugs with Java, not more bugs.
Maybe because Java allows to do more serious things  Grin

Offline jezek2
« Reply #24 - Posted 2010-12-10 16:45:25 »

Btw there is typo in my last post. I meant to type that I've had more serious bugs with Java, not more bugs.
IE 6 and 7 usage is so small now it's not uncommon to see it's browser usage only taking up a couple of percent; even less then 1% isn't that strange any more (although it depends heavily on who your audience is).

IE6 has still around 5% in Czech Republic and IE7 about 10%. There are also companies that have 100% IE of one version (including IE6). And browser apps are indeed crap, doesn't matter if Google or someone else is behind it or not. Nothing beats native apps in performance, capabilities and integration, also client-side apps are more stable (eg. GUIs typically work more as expected than DHTML/AJAX heavy apps) and not dependant on network latency or requiring to be online.
Offline woogley
« Reply #25 - Posted 2010-12-10 17:24:36 »

Javascript as a language is not far removed from Java itself. It could do with a few nods towards features that are geared to raw performance such as direct bytebuffers.
Cas Smiley

Fyi, any browser that supports WebGL has things like the Int32Array object baked in. Combined with exclusive use of shaders and all of your data will be pushed by the GPU.
Offline princec

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« Reply #26 - Posted 2010-12-10 18:09:00 »

The problem always was getting the data to the GPU in the first place. It's only just become almost quick enough in JDK7 with the server VM  Lips Sealed

And commercially, the once mighty Czech republic accounts for < 1% of my revenues from Puppygames so I wouldn't be all that worried about losing 10% of that 1% Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline jezek2
« Reply #27 - Posted 2010-12-10 19:20:01 »

And commercially, the once mighty Czech republic accounts for < 1% of my revenues from Puppygames so I wouldn't be all that worried about losing 10% of that 1% Smiley

I always love how everyone can cut based solely on percents Smiley Especially Linux users are being often cut since they're 1% or so (at least here), but they are very active vocally and typically they're 25% of customers (other 25% mac and 50% windows) in indie games (or similar big numbers).

Anyway, I was not talking about games, but generally, and it depends on application, whether it's for public usage, or eg. corporate intranet application. And Czech Republic was just example (because I know where the stats are) that the global stats are nice, but may not be relevant in various parts of the world or for your target audience.
Offline princec

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« Reply #28 - Posted 2010-12-10 19:54:39 »

Well, as we're also talking about software that costs no money at all, the Czechs have only themselves to blame Wink

Cas :0

Offline Mr. Gol

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« Reply #29 - Posted 2010-12-11 10:21:56 »

IE6 has still around 5% in Czech Republic and IE7 about 10%. There are also companies that have 100% IE of one version (including IE6). (...)

These numbers are in the same range as the rest of the world: http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_explorer.asp
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