Mac App Store without Java

[Mr. Gol]

I suspect that creating native Mac Look And Feel would be quite problematic as the supporting API that is providing the ability to draw component parts is from deprecated Carbon. On the other side, Qt (which is also opensource) has native LAF on Mac, so there is fully functional example to learn from.

There is already the Quaqua look and feel (http://www.randelshofer.ch/quaqua/index.html) which is actually better than Apple's own effort. The only problem will indeed be to port AWT to Cocoa.

[kappa]

interesting post from Gosling regarding the above.

[Eli Delventhal]

There is already the Quaqua look and feel (http://www.randelshofer.ch/quaqua/index.html) which is actually better than Apple's own effort. The only problem will indeed be to port AWT to Cocoa.

Quaqua is not a fully self-contained look and feel. It runs on top of Apple's Aqua Look and Feel, and provides fixes and enhancements for it.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[kappa]

Steve Jobs responds to an email about Java. Could be fake but either way its a rather lame excuse for dropping java support.

[erikd]

Still, if another JVM would actually be provided by for example Oracle, Apple is still blocking java apps on the App Store right? But would that also include games with an embedded JVM?

[delt0r]

It includes anything Apple says no too. Its not like they have been consistent with what they permit and don't permit.

If i was a mac user right now, I would be looking at Ebay right now. Its pretty clear what direction this is going to go in. Makes the MS tax look friendly (IIRC they are asking 30%).

[kappa]

Well, Steam is on Mac now, so there is still hope for java games on at least that app store

[princec]

Well, yes, provided someone has the wherewithall to see if OpenJDK cuts it with LWJGL, anyway...

Cas

[Orangy Tang]

Frankly I couldn't care less about Aqua/Swing/AWT bindings, or even if the VM is bundled with the OS. Just as long as there's a reliable and performant VM that I can throw LWJGL and a VM language over the top of.

[kappa]

Well, yes, provided someone has the wherewithall to see if OpenJDK cuts it with LWJGL, anyway...

Cas

LWJGL works fine with OpenJDK (at least on linux), only issues with OpenJDK is that it doesn't have proper JWS and Applet support. It should be fine for bundling with an app though.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[princec]

OpenJDK on the Mac is a rather different proposition.

Cas

[bobjob]

new java update (3) came out on Mac 2day, downloading and gonna test LWJGL...

edit: OpenGL applets still broke with plugin2 

but at least Applet still seems to be developing Java, I wonder when updates will stop.

[gouessej]

LWJGL works fine with OpenJDK (at least on linux), only issues with OpenJDK is that it doesn't have proper JWS and Applet support. It should be fine for bundling with an app though.

OpenJDK has NetX, doesn't it? TUER works fine with this VM, I only had to work around a known bug in its way of parsing JNLP files.

[princec]

Nothing to do with the app store though - that's about delivering apps. Not jnlps.

Cas

[Mr. Gol]

but at least Apple still seems to be developing Java, I wonder when updates will stop.

They will continue to work on their Java implementation for the remainder of Leopard's and Snow Leopard's life cycle. For Snow Leopard that should be for another year or so.

In relation to this update I have to say that it appears that Apple's Java team was not informed of this decision. If you look in the release notes, they added a lot of new stuff in this update. There is now an API for the mouse gesture events, and they redesigned some other stuff. That's a lot of work for something that's going to disappear soon.

[kappa]

They did add support for third party jvm's, so they must have known to some degree and have started to make it easier for someone else to fill the gap.

[thiagosc]

I understand why some might be interested in supporting Apple stuff for business reasons, but other than that, who cares.

Apple is a disgusting company that has already demonstrated that their idea of a "computer" is a locked down appliance. Removing Java is just another step to lock it down further.

I don't know why some people are shocked. You should have seen this coming a long time ago.

Apple is worse than Microsoft. I never understood why some Java developers seemed to like Macs so much.

[kappa]

After correspondence with some of the Apple Java Team Engineers, they have said they still have long term plans/goals for Java, it doesn't say much but their is an indication that the deprecation announcement was premature. Maybe they have plans to help transit or donate the code they have to something like OpenJDK or to Oracle. It would be a terrible waste from Apples point of view to just abandon all the hard work they've put into it even if they have decided to no longer support it themselves.

[Preston]

Apple is a disgusting company that has already demonstrated that their idea of a "computer" is a locked down appliance. Removing Java is just another step to lock it down further.

I don't know why some people are shocked. You should have seen this coming a long time ago.

Apple is worse than Microsoft.

Unfortunately this is true, I think.

It would be a terrible waste from Apples point of view to just abandon all the hard work they've put into it even if they have decided to no longer support it themselves.

I don't think that such egocentric people like Steve Jobs think in normal ways. They want something in their head and will take nearly any measure to achieve this, no matter how sensible it is.

This of course is not limited to Steve Jobs. I think Larry Ellison is similar. Higly egocentric.
In the ancient Rome such persons have been named with the well known Latin word "idiot".

On the other side, I don't think you've to worry too much. Apple Mac will always be some niche market. (Please note I don't say that Mac OS X is bad, but I agree with Thiagosc on Apple.)
Android will overtake iOS easily, starting 2011; actually it is already starting in number of sold Android devices compared to iPhones. The reason could be that the world's mobile manufacturers do not want to be Jobs' serfs). 

[Orangy Tang]

On the other side, I don't think you've to worry too much. Apple Mac will always be some niche market.

It may be a niche market, but at the moment it's my preferred development environment. If the JVM stops being available for Mac then I've got to either change language or OS, neither of which is a thrilling proposition.

[Preston]

It may be a niche market, but at the moment it's my preferred development environment.

Hi Orangy, nice to read you.
I fully understand you, and some of my Java friends use Mac OS X, too, which technically is nice.

"Niche" I didn't mean in a negative way; actually we Java developers know niche(s) very well! (Except for Markus Persson's Minecraft, hihi)

With "niche market" I wanted to say that Apples decision is not the end of the Java world.
(Also Mac applications can be distributed in the classic way, for example via own Web sites, without App Mac Store. Unfortunately the Store will attract the "masses"...)

If the JVM stops being available for Mac then I've got to either change language or OS, neither of which is a thrilling proposition.

Yes, that would be very bad, and for the sake of Java and its community I hope Apple won't stop the JVM. Or in case they would, let's hope they help the official (Oracle) Java or OpenJDK or such a thing so that they can deliver a solid JVM for Mac OS X.

[Orangy Tang]

Yes, that would be very bad, and for the sake of Java and its community I hope Apple won't stop the JVM. Or in case they would, let's hope they help the official (Oracle) Java or OpenJDK or such a thing so that they can deliver a solid JVM for Mac OS X.

Unfortunately with Oracle keeping silent as ever, 'hope' is all we have to go on right now. Which leaves me wondering if I want to sink time into a dead-end technology or start on a new technology stack now while there's a transition period.

[kappa]

Unfortunately with Oracle keeping silent as ever, 'hope' is all we have to go on right now. Which leaves me wondering if I want to sink time into a dead-end technology or start on a new technology stack now while there's a transition period.

There was a nice article on slashdot this morning, with Eclipse's marketing director trying to give oracles marketing department a clue. Something Oracle seriously needs to pay attention to.

[fruitmaze]

I'm considering starting to make games in Javascript instead. It feels like that could be the future for browser-games. What do you think?

[kappa]

I'm considering starting to make games in Javascript instead. It feels like that could be the future for browser-games. What do you think?

while the future of javascript does look good, just not found ides/tools support on par with whats currently available for java.

Also saw this yesterday http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flash/molehill/ actually makes programming games in Flash look really appealing.

[fruitmaze]

Also saw this yesterday http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flash/molehill/ actually makes programming games in Flash look really appealing.

That's cool! Really nice graphics on that racing game. Though I really like that WebGL doesn't require any plugin or software to run. On the other hand, not many browsers support it yet.

[xinaesthetic]

I find it hard to believe it will be significantly difficult to keep going with a Java development environment on Mac, one way or another...

However, if the Java experience for end users gets even worse than it already is, then the value of producing games in it is seriously compromised.  Actually, I've always found it annoying that Java on the mac tends to be behind and that the version is tied to which version of the OS the user has.

I hope that a solid JVM will emerge and that it will be seamless for average users... but even if that is the case, with people like Jobs calling it deprecated I can easily see desktop Java becoming the next RealPlayer.  Not that I was sorry to see the back of RealPlayer, but that's the point: many users I imagine they have exactly the same emotions when they see "that stupid coffee cup" as I used to whenever I had to use RealPlayer.

Interesting about Molehill - I don't know why Adobe didn't do something like that several years ago.

I do also find Apple worse than Microsoft in some ways... but because they're very good at managing their public perception, which MS never really were, they seem to get away with things.  Their 'cool factor' just makes them more creepy and insidious as far as I'm concerned.

[markus.borbely]

Ahh good.... I really hate Mac. Now I have one more reason to. I had to use one at work for 1.5 years. As soon as I got the chance I switched to a pc with bigger screen for half the price (it also were much more stable).

[Mads]

It seems that Apple has declared war on all cross-platform technologies. The new MacBook Airs no longer have Flash Player installed out of the box.

Edit: WTF?!

http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-dev/2010/Oct/msg00121.html
http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#releasenotes/Java/JavaSnowLeopardUpdate3LeopardUpdate8RN/NewandNoteworthy/NewandNoteworthy.html%23//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40010380-CH4-SW1

They also don't have flash on any of their iTouch devices.. Java also don't run of those.
I don't get it.. Those  technologies were made to be cross-platform and a lot of people uses them. ..Time to follow Google I guess - Andriod to the rescue.

f**k shit f**k crap.

As someone who is programming in Obj-C for at least 40 hours a week, I say f**k f**k.

This sucks. The fact that I have to wait at least 5 minutes for compilation and that XCode repeatedly refuses to actually compile all changed resources (as in, it will often think an out-of-date resource is up-to-date, so you get to wait 2 minutes to clean your project before you get to wait 5 minutes) and that sometimes you just have to completely quit and reopen it, and more...

f**k. f**k.

I hate Objective-C.

This is exactly what I wanted to say Just without the "working 40 hours a week with it..".
I find it fun that you have to be on a Mac to develop iTouch applications, and the fact that you have to pay to get the Developer Program by Mac. Instead of charging for that, they should charge 1% of the income on sold applications and make money that way.. *sigh* 

[xinaesthetic]

I find it fun that you have to be on a Mac to develop iTouch applications, and the fact that you have to pay to get the Developer Program by Mac. Instead of charging for that, they should charge 1% of the income on sold applications and make money that way.. *sigh* 

I don't much like it either, but compare it to game console development and the bar is surely much lower (Xbox-LA maybe roughly similar-ish).  They're just making similar 'consumer appliance' type computers for more general purposes.

As for taking a cut, I believe Apple already take 30% on everything sold through the app store, which is of course the only permitted channel.