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  Mac App Store without Java  (Read 8059 times)
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Offline noblemaster

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« Posted 2010-10-21 05:53:59 »

Mac App Store will be opening "soon":
http://www.apple.com/mac/app-store/

Sounds like a great idea, but then, I am not liking this one little bit:
Quote
3.3.1 Applications may only use public APIs and frameworks included in the default installation of Mac OS X or as bundled with Xcode as provided by Apple, deprecated technologies (such as Java) may not be used.

Offline Riven
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Hand over your head.


« Reply #1 - Posted 2010-10-21 06:31:10 »

Deprecated. Hehe. Oh well, we know Steve doesn't like Java, and that he likes to have more control over your device than you have.

Why are people encouraging this behavior by buying this crap?

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Offline zammbi

JGO Coder


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« Reply #2 - Posted 2010-10-21 07:18:18 »

Ouch. Sounds like they really don't like Java at all. I hope they get complaints.

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Offline TheMatrix154

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« Reply #3 - Posted 2010-10-21 07:22:39 »

3.3.1 Applications may only use public APIs and frameworks included in the default installation of Mac OS X or as bundled with Xcode as provided by Apple, deprecated technologies (such as Java) may not be used.

Where did you read that? I haven't found this statement on Apple's site. But it's no surprise that Apple wants to "force" developers to use Apple's frameworks. Maybe they going to allow third-party authoring tools like Unity and so on. How knows...

Steve for President, anyone? persecutioncomplex

Offline delt0r

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Computers can do that?


« Reply #4 - Posted 2010-10-21 07:35:08 »

Ironically macs have the best out of the box support for java 1.6 out of the big 2 OS.

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline Mr. Gol

Senior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #5 - Posted 2010-10-21 07:36:21 »

It seems that Apple has declared war on all cross-platform technologies. The new MacBook Airs no longer have Flash Player installed out of the box.

Edit: WTF?!

http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-dev/2010/Oct/msg00121.html
http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#releasenotes/Java/JavaSnowLeopardUpdate3LeopardUpdate8RN/NewandNoteworthy/NewandNoteworthy.html%23//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40010380-CH4-SW1

Quote
As of the release of Java for Mac OS X 10.6 Update 3, the version of Java that is ported by Apple, and that ships with Mac OS X, is deprecated.

This means that the Apple-produced runtime will not be maintained at the same level, and may be removed from future versions of Mac OS X.
Offline TheMatrix154

Junior Devvie


Medals: 2



« Reply #6 - Posted 2010-10-21 07:48:19 »

Quote
As of the release of Java for Mac OS X 10.6 Update 3, the version of Java that is ported by Apple, and that ships with Mac OS X, is deprecated.

This means that the Virtual-Machine from Apple is deprecated not Java itself. Maybe we'll see a VM from Sun / Oracle in the future.

Offline Mr. Gol

Senior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #7 - Posted 2010-10-21 08:01:05 »

Yes, from the wording it seems that they want Oracle to port Java to the Mac. However, not having it installed out of the box on all Macs is a huge loss. Also, I suspect for a lot of Mac users installing software will soon be equivalent to using the App Store, from which Java apps are disallowed.
Offline princec

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« Reply #8 - Posted 2010-10-21 09:09:08 »

Actually I see this as a good thing eventually: I'll be able to ship a bundled JRE with my games finally! OpenJDK to the rescue. Or whatever Oracle comes up with. This simplifies things for me enormously believe it or not. I'll be doing the same for Linux soon too. No more crappy Webstart.

Cas Smiley

Offline kevglass

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« Reply #9 - Posted 2010-10-21 09:10:56 »

Linux? Whats that? Smiley

Kev

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Offline JonathanC

Senior Newbie





« Reply #10 - Posted 2010-10-21 09:26:27 »

Actually I see this as a good thing eventually: I'll be able to ship a bundled JRE with my games finally! OpenJDK to the rescue. Or whatever Oracle comes up with. This simplifies things for me enormously believe it or not. I'll be doing the same for Linux soon too. No more crappy Webstart.

Cas Smiley

Are you allowed to bundle the Sun/Oracle JRE?

This move definitely has shaken my venture up, particularly since we're in a transition towards supporting iOS game exporting and are courting Mac users.
Offline delt0r

JGO Knight


Medals: 30
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Computers can do that?


« Reply #11 - Posted 2010-10-21 09:31:52 »

You have been allowed to bundle the jre since version 1.0.

However the sun jvm does not work on a mac.

Also as much as mac are getting a lot of mindshare they are still small fry compared to windows. I get about 40% Linux 40% windows and the remainder are macs for my scientific code. My mac numbers are probably high since biology folk tend to be mac fanboys.

With this news i will be looking at OpenJDK support for mac.

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline kappa
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« Reply #12 - Posted 2010-10-21 13:44:11 »

Good, now with Apple out of the way, Java can stay in sync on all platforms and not lag behind or be broken due to Apple specific hacks. Hopefully Oracle/OpenJDK will have a port ready for the Java 7 release.
Offline bobjob

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Medals: 10
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David Aaron Muhar


« Reply #13 - Posted 2010-10-21 15:09:01 »

I just really hope that the guys at Applet fix the OpenGL bug with applets before they officially stop support.

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Offline lhkbob

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Medals: 32



« Reply #14 - Posted 2010-10-21 15:11:51 »

I bet part of this is just so they don't have to worry about porting all the new changes that are coming with Java 7.  Hopefully, Oracle can quickly get a Mac version up before Apple discontinues it.

Offline Eli Delventhal

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Game Engineer


« Reply #15 - Posted 2010-10-21 15:20:16 »

f**k shit f**k crap.

As someone who is programming in Obj-C for at least 40 hours a week, I say f**k f**k.

This sucks. The fact that I have to wait at least 5 minutes for compilation and that XCode repeatedly refuses to actually compile all changed resources (as in, it will often think an out-of-date resource is up-to-date, so you get to wait 2 minutes to clean your project before you get to wait 5 minutes) and that sometimes you just have to completely quit and reopen it, and more...

f**k. f**k.

I hate Objective-C.

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Offline bobjob

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David Aaron Muhar


« Reply #16 - Posted 2010-10-21 15:22:24 »

It really can go either way. Even though Java programmers are closed off from the app store, if oracle release a jvm for mac it will be great for the client side experience.

but just in case, for my own peace of mind, im going to install an alternative JVM http://landonf.bikemonkey.org/static/soylatte/#get and test out LWJGL see if applets/opengl/sound works fine.

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Offline kappa
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« Reply #17 - Posted 2010-10-21 15:50:12 »

problem atm with OpenJDK is that Oracle still haven't released the JWS/Applet Plugin parts to it. In which case your stuck with the poor third party implementation from IcedTea which can't run LWJGL Applets yet.

Hopefully this will change soon and Oracle will release JWS and the Applet Plugins under the GPL. Hopefully this will happen before or around the time they release JavaFX under GPL (as they have promised).
Offline erikd

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Maximumisness


« Reply #18 - Posted 2010-10-21 16:06:43 »

... so is that what Apple calls a 'First Class Citizen'?  Undecided

Offline bobjob

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David Aaron Muhar


« Reply #19 - Posted 2010-10-21 16:23:21 »

problem atm with OpenJDK is that Oracle still haven't released the JWS/Applet Plugin parts to it. In which case your stuck with the poor third party implementation from IcedTea which can't run LWJGL Applets yet.
That seriously sux.

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Offline JonathanC

Senior Newbie





« Reply #20 - Posted 2010-10-21 17:56:32 »

Also as much as mac are getting a lot of mindshare they are still small fry compared to windows.

Not when one of your product's main use cases is building iOS games. I expect our share of Mac users to grow to at least a third or 50%, if not more.
Offline princec

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« Reply #21 - Posted 2010-10-21 18:40:47 »

Mac/Apple/iOS are on a rampage. Expect market share to double over the next 10 years.

Sod applets.

Cas Smiley

Offline Nate

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« Reply #22 - Posted 2010-10-21 20:32:04 »

This sucks. The fact that I have to wait at least 5 minutes for compilation and that XCode repeatedly refuses to actually compile all changed resources (as in, it will often think an out-of-date resource is up-to-date, so you get to wait 2 minutes to clean your project before you get to wait 5 minutes) and that sometimes you just have to completely quit and reopen it, and more...

Xcode is a huge steamy pile from the early 90s, but right click -> Touch will cause it to see your changed resources.

I've been forced to do a lot of ObjC and I have exactly the same opinion as you. Sad Best thing you can do is not do it.


Offline erikd

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« Reply #23 - Posted 2010-10-21 20:40:44 »

Mac/Apple/iOS are on a rampage. Expect market share to double over the next 10 years.

Sod applets.

Cas Smiley

I'm afraid you're probably right, but I'm also expecting a backlash at Apple in the next 10 years seeing how they seem to be much worse in their monopolist attitude than MS have ever been.
Apple have the benefit of the doubt because they (arguably) still have the best platforms at least from the end-user's point of view, but they might have a hard time to keep the mindshare of the development community on their side.
I mean,  they managed to convert a lot of java developers to Apple (and there are of course a LOT more java developers than Obj-C developers) and now they just show them the door without even giving them the courtesy of giving them a cup of coffee on the way out (yeah, bad pun Wink)

Offline Gudradain
« Reply #24 - Posted 2010-10-21 20:54:37 »

f**k shit f**k crap.

As someone who is programming in Obj-C for at least 40 hours a week, I say f**k f**k.

This sucks. The fact that I have to wait at least 5 minutes for compilation and that XCode repeatedly refuses to actually compile all changed resources (as in, it will often think an out-of-date resource is up-to-date, so you get to wait 2 minutes to clean your project before you get to wait 5 minutes) and that sometimes you just have to completely quit and reopen it, and more...

f**k. f**k.

I hate Objective-C.

Lol. I just bought an Iphone and will probably do some coding if I feel like it. Meh... your comment turn me down a bit Smiley
Offline kappa
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« Reply #25 - Posted 2010-10-21 21:09:39 »

Nice article covering Apples decision to depreciate its Java support, even mentions Minecraft as one of the last saviours of desktop Java Smiley
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/21/apple_threatens_to_kill_java_on_the_mac/
Offline Orangy Tang

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Monkey for a head


« Reply #26 - Posted 2010-10-21 21:54:18 »

Maybe I'm being hopelessly optimistic, but surely Oracle will want to post some kind of annoucement saying that they'll be releasing 1.7 for mac as soon as possible. Otherwise this is going to stir up all kinds of uncertainty and push people away.

OTOH, Oracle are obviously even more server-focused than Sun, and with OSX being almost entirely a client OS maybe they just don't care about the lack of java on that platform...

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Offline kappa
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« Reply #27 - Posted 2010-10-21 22:09:29 »

Maybe I'm being hopelessly optimistic, but surely Oracle will want to post some kind of annoucement saying that they'll be releasing 1.7 for mac as soon as possible. Otherwise this is going to stir up all kinds of uncertainty and push people away.

ha, Oracle have the most tight lipped PR marketing people ever, the don't announce or reply to anything unless they absolutely have to. As usual they'll just ignore this announcement and miss any chance to get some positive PR from its java developers.
Offline Gudradain
« Reply #28 - Posted 2010-10-22 00:45:31 »

Quote
The real issue here is Java development. "There are a whole hell of a lot of Java developers toting around MacBooks at the moment,"

That's a stupid move by apple indeed. At my school we learn java and like 1/4 of the students have a Mac.
Offline jezek2
« Reply #29 - Posted 2010-10-22 03:28:11 »

Nothing unexpected there. I saw it coming from the moment they deprecated the Java Cocoa bridge. It doesn't have to be death of Java on Mac, but for sure it's death of naive idea (but worth noting that without trying we wouldn't know it's naive) of having such complex system as Java as standard provided by each OS directly. Just look at JavaScript, which uses similar model but on smaller scale (each browser provides it's own runtime), while the language itself is (almost) identical, the APIs are not. There are many mismatchs in DOM and other things.

So generally I consider it a good thing actually, but depends on how well Oracle or community (through SoyLatte) will react. I suspect that creating native Mac Look And Feel would be quite problematic as the supporting API that is providing the ability to draw component parts is from deprecated Carbon. On the other side, Qt (which is also opensource) has native LAF on Mac, so there is fully functional example to learn from.
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