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  Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android  (Read 17899 times)
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Offline erikd

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« Reply #90 - Posted 2010-09-03 08:28:03 »

I don't think so and I remind you that Dalvik uses a completely different approach in memory handling, it has nothing to do with J2SE.
I think you misunderstood my post. I never said anything about Dalvik's memory handling being the same as J2SE.
I said "it's (android's bad performance) NOT because dalvik is NOT J2SE.". 2 times NOT, see?  Smiley

Quote
Have a look at the links I provided, it illustrates my post.
I did. It doesn't look very different from how it works in J2SE though? (although I'd never use the 1st 'version string' solution)

Offline Mads

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« Reply #91 - Posted 2010-09-09 10:10:20 »

The following is a quote from the official Oracle website:
Quote
With the acquisition of Sun, Oracle will drive continued innovation and investment in Java technology for the benefit of customers and the Java community.

I don't think Java will just be hang and forgotten. It is a well known language and alot of people use it (just not for industry games..).

Offline Mordan

Junior Member





« Reply #92 - Posted 2010-09-22 09:29:44 »

I, for one, supports Oracle against Google.

I have never been a better programmer since I started working on J2ME with just a Canvas and nothing else.
My java bytecode will work on J2SE Bridged from J2ME.

Can you bridged Dalvik code to J2SE?

I'm against branching the Java bytecode.
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Offline kappa
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« Reply #93 - Posted 2010-10-05 22:07:35 »

Google officially responds

http://www.osnews.com/story/23873/Google_Officially_Responds_to_Oracle_Android_Patent_Lawsuit
Offline Riven
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« Reply #94 - Posted 2010-10-05 22:18:35 »

 Lips Sealed

I'm really interested in what will happen, over the next months and years.

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Offline Draps

Senior Newbie





« Reply #95 - Posted 2010-10-06 00:54:04 »

What’s everyone’s idea's on the licensing for being able to sell the games or software you create with the tools provided?

eh that doesn't matter too much but, what about the open source idea..

Quote
Oracle has been exposed for the anti-Freedom, anti-open source company that it really is.

what if it is made you have to pay licensing for the sdk? how do you think this would affect the community, better question - Who will leave java for good ? (unless of course it becomes open source again)

This is causing me to debate whether or not to start anything new in java ..

my next project was set to start construction in mid November, We shall see what news in brought forth
Offline Riven
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« Reply #96 - Posted 2010-10-06 01:02:14 »

what if it is made you have to pay licensing for the sdk? how do you think this would affect the community, better question - Who will leave java for good ? (unless of course it becomes open source again)

You don't actually need the Oracle JDK. Eclipse has it's own compiler, and the JRE runs your apps just fine.

Oracle will have this brand new Office Suite soon, so it's in their own interest not to charge money for the JRE.

Then again, Oracle is known for charging for everything.

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Offline Draps

Senior Newbie





« Reply #97 - Posted 2010-10-06 01:27:28 »

You don't actually need the Oracle JDK. Eclipse has it's own compiler, and the JRE runs your apps just fine.

Oracle will have this brand new Office Suite soon, so it's in their own interest not to charge money for the JRE.

Then again, Oracle is known for charging for everything.

i know but if the change the licensing eclipse may be asked to pay and being that it is open source it defeats the perpose.

i do know someone who used to work for sun, who is now part of Oracle. Perhaps i should consult him.
Offline OverKill

Junior Member




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« Reply #98 - Posted 2010-10-06 07:20:12 »

IMHO any requirements for license fees for Java will kill Java.
Short term you might get some revenue because many companies have the stuff they provide built upon this, but they will then switch ASAP.
Offline zammbi

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« Reply #99 - Posted 2010-10-06 09:09:39 »

Yeah I really don't see them adding fees unless they want to kill the language.

Really that article just shows that Google admitting they are in the wrong and trying to make Oracle look like the evil one. Though I wonder what will happen next. Maybe Google will try to do a deal before it goes to trial because it seems they will loose.

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Offline gouessej
« Reply #100 - Posted 2010-10-06 10:37:09 »

Yeah I really don't see them adding fees unless they want to kill the language.

Really that article just shows that Google admitting they are in the wrong and trying to make Oracle look like the evil one. Though I wonder what will happen next. Maybe Google will try to do a deal before it goes to trial because it seems they will loose.
I agree with you, there is no white hat. I hope that Oracle will use this deal to push J2SE/JavaFX 2 on Android Smiley

Offline kappa
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« Reply #101 - Posted 2010-10-06 11:13:21 »

I agree with you, there is no white hat. I hope that Oracle will use this deal to push J2SE/JavaFX 2 on Android Smiley

Unlikely to happen, if Oracle win they're likely to get a massive amount of money from Google and Google will probably start moving away from Java. If Google win there will likely still remain bad blood between the two companies but might force Oracle to be more open with Java in future as there is a risk they will loose control.

Only way out of this situation that would be good for everyone is if the two companies settle out of court but from the impressive I've gotten of Oracle so far they are unlikely to care about any benefit to the Java community and would probably just want the money.

Also from the looks of it the patents in question are pretty recent (as new as 2008) so Java (GPL) won't be truly free until 2028 or until the US abolish software patents.
Offline erikd

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« Reply #102 - Posted 2010-10-06 11:26:14 »

Quote
Unlikely to happen, if Oracle win they're likely to get a massive amount of money from Google and Google will probably start moving away from Java.

Could be true, but that would make Android (and Google) look very bad indeed.
"Sorry all developers, we stole java so you have to switch languages now". Couldn't Google just be smarter and avoid this nonsense alltogether?

Offline zammbi

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« Reply #103 - Posted 2010-10-06 11:56:55 »

If they did go to court and lost they wouldn't be able to continue using Java even if they pay the fees correct? or they could get sued again? (I have have hardly any knowledge in US patent law).

Which if Google wants to continue with Java then they would need to settle outside of the court.

Quote
"Sorry all developers, we stole java so you have to switch languages now"
Well they could in a much nicer way. Like invent something so similar(like what MS did with C#) that anything can be ported over. Which could be in done Android 3.

This is probably more likely then them having J2SE in Android 3. But who knows, maybe there could be a compromise and have a hybrid Android/J2SE library.

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Offline kappa
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« Reply #104 - Posted 2010-10-06 12:13:36 »

Like invent something so similar(like what MS did with C#) that anything can be ported over.
Its unlikely that .Net is fully free from Java patents, MS probably licence them or have a stockpile of their own as a defence. Also the recent ramblings about Java not being free by the Mono developers are rather silly as they are probably just as easy targets for Oracle as Android.
Offline erikd

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« Reply #105 - Posted 2010-10-06 12:19:16 »

Like invent something so similar(like what MS did with C#) that anything can be ported over. Which could be in done Android 3.

Which should have been in Android 1 in the first place since they decided against 'real' java.
In the end it's all backpaddling.

Offline zammbi

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« Reply #106 - Posted 2010-10-06 12:29:01 »

Quote
Its unlikely that .Net is fully free from Java patents, MS probably licence them or have a stockpile of their own as a defence.
Funny if Oracle goes after .Net next.

Quote
Which should have been in Android 1 in the first place since they decided against 'real' java.
Indeed.

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Offline erikd

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« Reply #107 - Posted 2010-10-06 20:11:57 »

On the other hand, if Oracle would have continued Sun's direction to get with the times and open up java, some of this mess would not have been necessary?
Nevertheless, my gut feeling says that Google is playing a bit of an unfair game here, perhaps relying a bit too much on their 'coolness' image.
I'm a bit divided in this...  persecutioncomplex

Offline kappa
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« Reply #108 - Posted 2010-10-06 22:33:05 »

On the other hand, if Oracle would have continued Sun's direction to get with the times and open up java, some of this mess would not have been necessary?

You don't pay $6 billion and then release the crown jewels for free Smiley
Oracle are likely to try squeeze at least that much out of its purchase if not more.
Offline OverKill

Junior Member




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« Reply #109 - Posted 2010-10-07 07:32:36 »

IMHO it is a no win situation if the continue down this path:
Oracle will most likely win, proving their 'evilness' and people will shy away from Java, leaving Oracle with an empty victory that will cost them more then they stood to gain.
If Oracle does not win, it will be all-bets-off concerning patents.
For Oracle it was a do or die situation. If the do not sue the infringers, it is bad and freeing it would have been a financial loss.
I saw a who-is-suing-who-in-the-mobile-world, it really was basically everyone suing each other.

For Google any outcome, even if it costs them, can be a morality victory. Since Java is not fully free and Oracle did a 180°, they 'did the right thing, even if it was not lawful'.

And seriously, we know Oracle and they were never 'the good guys'. If they do something, it will be for money and for money only.
One of the perks for buying Sun was the possibility to sue the infringers.

IMHO the ONLY way for this to end in a positive way is for Java to become fully free.
Then both can claim victory and live happily ever after.
Offline bobjob

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« Reply #110 - Posted 2010-10-07 13:29:44 »

Personally I think.

If oracle wins: It will give Java a new wave of credibility (in a corporate sense), just like how people respect Mac, even though its just plain evil.

I would love it if google reached a settlement that android would allow for a java virtual machine. Not j2me specifically, just rights to a vitual machine, as I cant help but wonder how long j2me will last as smart phones continue to become small computers.

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Offline GKW

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« Reply #111 - Posted 2010-10-07 15:33:23 »

Analysis by groklaw:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20101005114201136

Personally I would like to google win and have java available free and clear of any corporate control.
Offline kappa
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« Reply #112 - Posted 2010-10-07 15:39:03 »

Personally I would like to google win and have java available free and clear of any corporate control.

Yeh would be nice but Oracle aren't gonna let it go so easily and judging by their recent actions they could easily move Java back to being closed source like they did with OpenSolaris.
Offline GKW

Senior Member




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« Reply #113 - Posted 2010-10-07 16:03:50 »

Google is asking the court to invalidate oracles copyright on Java.  If google wins Java will have all open source code and oracle won't be able to control the code via a it's copyrights.  Java will be free and clear.
Offline kappa
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« Reply #114 - Posted 2010-10-07 16:09:24 »

Google is asking the court to invalidate oracles copyright on Java.  If google wins Java will have all open source code and oracle won't be able to control the code via a it's copyrights.  Java will be free and clear.

yeh but the copyright isn't how Oracle control Java, the GPL pretty much gives that away. Its the patents that Oracle controls Java with.
Online Roquen
« Reply #115 - Posted 2010-10-07 16:19:30 »

Well, the real trick is the patents in question are far from java specific.
Offline GKW

Senior Member




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« Reply #116 - Posted 2010-10-07 17:00:09 »

yeh but the copyright isn't how Oracle control Java, the GPL pretty much gives that away. Its the patents that Oracle controls Java with.

Supposedly google did a clean room implementation of Java, rather than using the GPL'd code, so there should not be any valid patent infringement claims.  That leaves copyright infringement which is what googles response deals with.
Offline ShannonSmith
« Reply #117 - Posted 2010-10-07 17:17:05 »

Supposedly google did a clean room implementation of Java, rather than using the GPL'd code, so there should not be any valid patent infringement claims.  That leaves copyright infringement which is what googles response deals with.

You have it backwards, clean room clears you of copyright issues but does nothing to protect you from patent infringement.
Offline GKW

Senior Member




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« Reply #118 - Posted 2010-10-07 18:20:41 »

Google believes it has a license to oracles patents because they implemented a clean room version of java which is outlined in the copyright notice that comes with the jls and jvm specs.  Oracle is claiming that google violated that copyright, thus google doesn't have a license, and is now infringing on oracles patents.
Offline ShannonSmith
« Reply #119 - Posted 2010-10-07 18:38:55 »

The patent licences are granted only if the implementation passes the TCK which Dalvik does not. Google is saying the patents are unrelated or invalid not that it should have a licence to use them.

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