Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

[CaptainJester]

http://www.businessinsider.com/oracle-sues-google-for-patent-and-copyright-infringement-2010-8

I don't know what the outcome will be, but it seems like a shot to the heart for Java development.  I mean with Android who wants to do J2ME dev?

[Eli Delventhal]

They just want money.

It would be completely moronic to demand that it be removed.

[i30817]

Ok, java is now dead, purposely killed by oracle.

Good going.

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[zammbi]

I don't think Google will just remove Java, they based everything on it. Maybe things will go better and Google will get official Java support? (Well that's my wishful thinking)

[Swattkidd7]

I don't think Google will just remove Java, they based everything on it. Maybe things will go better and Google will get official Java support? (Well that's my wishful thinking)

I don't know if suing someone is the way to get their help. Does this at least show Oracle is trying to do something with Java? As in improve it? (that's my wishful thinking )

[Nate]

Well Sun was already killing Java, so this isn't all that different.

[i30817]

More active destruction. Expect this to be a testing of the waters before lawsuits to apache, IBM. Even if the lawsuit is unsuccessful who would want to use a product made by a company that does this shit: lawsuits over VM technology patents (not trademarks?!?)?

BTW,


**I hate Larry, but I was a bit too obscene here.**

[kappa]

This will probably end up in some sort of settlement between the two companies which in the long run might actually turn out to be good for Java. Oracle are probably just trying to flex some muscle at Google to force some sort of settlement. Google has already invested heavily in Android so its likely they'll end up settling and nobody likes big legal battles (except laywers ).

If Oracle were really serious and just wanted money for the use of their patents, they'd have sued the entire Open Alliance (HTC, Samsung, Garmin, Sony, etc).

On the other hand its a risky move as Google (and the Open Alliance) have their own portfolio of patents and could try counter sue. This would just be bad for everyone and damage Java (and Android) alot more as Google would have to start moving away from normal Java like MS did with .Net.

Guess we'll just have to wait for Google's response before seeing which way this will go.

[princec]

I think... fair's probably fair. Google should probably license this stuff. It took Sun a looong time and a lot of money to get Java where it is today, and Google have profited rather nicely from all the effort without an awful lot of giving back. They could settle this entirely amicably.

Cas

[Abuse]

Android is the most successful product to have ever been derived from Java, and pisses all over J2ME.
As Sun tried and failed, morally I see no problem with Google coming along and doing it better - even if it does infringe on a few patents.

There really needs to be some kind of rewriting of the law to curb abuse of the copyright & patent system, as it simply isn't fulfilling it's intended purpose.
In this case it's doing the exact opposite, big business stifling innovation and attempting to profit from punitive damages.

From a consumers perspective this can only be a bad thing.
Though handled correctly Google could turn this into a massive PR boon, and paint Oracle as the evil money grubbing mega-corp.

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[oNyx]

>[...] and paint Oracle as the evil money grubbing mega-corp.

Huh? Oracle is an evil money grubbing mega-corp.

I liked Sun a lot better.

[Roquen]

I don't see any problems with copyright law (WRT to software).  Patents on the other hand IHMO should simply be disallowed.  The vast majority of software patents that I've read (which is quite a few) are either stupid (break the rules of something that is patentable) or so wide in scope that they cover everything that vaguely resembles to supposed solution, and thus is beyond anything envisioned by the so-called "creators"...which of course is the point of the exercise.  Of those that are "invalid", most likely in the vast majority of the cases, the filler knows perfectly well that's it is the case.  One of my favorites in the "stupid" category is a Sun patent:

1   2   3   4   5   6   7

public static int abs(int x) {   int s = x >> 31;   x ^= s;   x -= s;   return x; }

Which breaks the "obvious" rule since it's falls directly out the definition of 2s-complement numbers and also the "previous in use or published" rule.  But hey! So what? The patent office accepted it.  My guess is that this was a defensive patent since everyone under the sun (yuck yuck) uses it.

I've done some custom audio & video codecs for clients.  Probably 80% of my time "working" on the codec was insuring that I wasn't stepping on a patent. Weee! Productivity!

[bobjob]

It took Sun a looong time and a lot of money to get Java where it is today, and Google have profited rather nicely from all the effort without an awful lot of giving back.

I totally agree.

Even if oracle is a money grabbing corp, look what happend to Sun for not being the same. Im pro-Java and even though oracle may not be taking what we consider quality steps forward in the client side dev of java. I really think oracle has got what it takes for the survival of java through profitability.

[princec]

Indeed. Oracle if anything are very committed to wringing a lot of serverside performance out of Java, which will only end up being good for the clientside in the end. We've got LWJGL anyway - sorted

Cas

[Riven]

Oracle if anything are very committed to wringing a lot of serverside performance out of Java, which will only end up being good for the clientside in the end.

Unless they call it a new product, and license it.

[appel]

Don't know what to say. I'll surely grab some popcorn though. 

[CaptainJester]

Eric Raymond seems to think this is Apple indirectly attacking Google to stop competition with the iPhone.

http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2443

[CaptainJester]

I don't see any problems with copyright law (WRT to software).  Patents on the other hand IHMO should simply be disallowed.  The vast majority of software patents that I've read (which is quite a few) are either stupid (break the rules of something that is patentable) or so wide in scope that they cover everything that vaguely resembles to supposed solution, and thus is beyond anything envisioned by the so-called "creators"...which of course is the point of the exercise.  Of those that are "invalid", most likely in the vast majority of the cases, the filler knows perfectly well that's it is the case.  One of my favorites in the "stupid" category is a Sun patent:

The current copyright system is severely disabled.  Copyright was originally created as a tool for censorship and control, not for content creator protection.  Now it is wildly out of control and even worse than it was when originally invented. http://techdirt.com/articles/20100810/02525810568.shtml

Patents should definitely be disallowed on software.

[appel]

Google has a huge workforce of expert programmers. Won't they just create their own VM?

I do wonder what database systems Google uses, probably something from Oracle? Maybe Google will make it's own database servers

Unlikely. They'd rather pay and be over it than to go down that road.

[princec]

Google have created their own VM. The problem is that Oracle think that the concepts in this VM tread on their patents.

Cas

[Riven]

I do wonder what database systems Google uses, probably something from Oracle? Maybe Google will make it's own database servers

Google have created their own DB: BigTable

[VeaR]

So does this mean that patent trolling has officially started? I mean, after Oracle bought Sun, and started shutting down stuff, all signs were pointing that they mean to use Sun IP for something like this.

This is a bad sign. Not for Google or Android, but for the Harmony VM. Since the Android Dalvik VM is based on the Harmony VM, this move means that Oracle is attacking an independent Java VM. Sure, the Sun JVM is still the best on desktop, but some serious competition doesn't hurt.

[ChrisM]

So does this mean that patent trolling has officially started? I mean, after Oracle bought Sun, and started shutting down stuff, all signs were pointing that they mean to use Sun IP for something like this.

This is a bad sign. Not for Google or Android, but for the Harmony VM. Since the Android Dalvik VM is based on the Harmony VM, this move means that Oracle is attacking an independent Java VM. Sure, the Sun JVM is still the best on desktop, but some serious competition doesn't hurt.

Huge conclusion to jump to.  Google decided to use Sun's IP, modify and not provide any compensation to Sun.  Oracle has the means to pursue this, Sun did not.

As for an earlier comment about Oracle creating their own VM and moving to it, too late.  Too much momentum in the market and would be a massive issue, even for Google.

[erikd]

I don't see any problems with copyright law (WRT to software).  Patents on the other hand IHMO should simply be disallowed.  The vast majority of software patents that I've read (which is quite a few) are either stupid (break the rules of something that is patentable) or so wide in scope that they cover everything that vaguely resembles to supposed solution, and thus is beyond anything envisioned by the so-called "creators"...which of course is the point of the exercise. 

What you describe is not necessarily a problem of the patent system itself, but more of the process of granting patents. Especially in the US but also in some national patent offices in Europe many patents are granted too quickly with too little research, which leads to many invalid patents out there. This is not only a problem with software patents, but patents in general.

The thing is, despite all its problems it is still pretty much proven that the patent system in general has served its purpose: Stimulating technological advancement by giving inventors the opportunity to get their investments back during 20 years, and making the inventions public knowledge. The system is not perfect, but it's better than no patents at all.
Take for example patents on medicines. It's hugely expensive to make them, and without patents it would be pretty much impossible to recoup the necessary investments so either nobody would bother, or would keep them a secret.

However bad it may seem (and I'm no fan of Oracle and I like Android), but it's probably fair that Google is being sued if they indeed infringed on java patents.

As Sun tried and failed, morally I see no problem with Google coming along and doing it better - even if it does infringe on a few patents.

I don't see a problem with Google coming along and doing it better either (and neither does Oracle probably), but would it not have been morally more acceptable if they would have paid respect to java that it reserves by simply licensing the tech it needed? It's not like Google is a poor little company.

[Roquen]

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm was only talking about software patents.  Of course in other fields it is a reasonable protection of R&D costs.  And yes, the process across the board is flaw...but let's not go there.  My intended statement pretty much boils down I don't think that software patents should not exist.  I think that copyright protection (flawed or not) should suffice.

[elias4444]

My main concern here is the message that Oracle just bellowed out from their castle towers. We've heard almost nothing about client side Java plans, or what they'll be doing about Sun's prior decision to open source Java... and now, the first public thing that occurs is litigation of another company that actually did something really good with it all.

I can only hope that they approached Google in talks before going straight to their lawyers. Either way though, this is just another jab at developers to beware of what might happen to an otherwise great platform.

[kappa]

I can only hope that they approached Google in talks before going straight to their lawyers. Either way though, this is just another jab at developers to beware of what might happen to an otherwise great platform.

Even if Oracle did, its likely Google told them to get lost, probably to see how serious Oracle are and if they actually have anything that'll stick in court before deciding whether to make some sort of settlement.

[ChrisM]

Even if Oracle did, its likely Google told them to get lost, probably to see how serious Oracle are and if they actually have anything that'll stick in court before deciding whether to make some sort of settlement.

Oracle does not strike me as a company that leaves when you tell them to get lost, no matter how big they may be.  Now, how about the fact that Larry and Steve Jobs are best friends?  HMMMMM???

[VeaR]

...  Google decided to use Sun's IP, modify and not provide any compensation to Sun.  Oracle has the means to
...

If someone creates a Java VM Oracle has no business in it. AFAIK Java is open technology. Google did not use any Oracle (Sun) software, they just tailored the open-source Harmony VM to their needs. How can Oracle ask for any compensation for a software they have nothing to do? This is patent trolling.

[EgonOlsen]

....they just tailored the open-source Harmony VM to their needs.

Since when is the Dalvik VM based on the Harmony VM It uses the class libraries of the Harmony project (or at least a subset of them) but the VM itself is different. It isn't even a Java VM, i.e. i doesn't execute Java byte code. It's register based, not stack based like the usual Java VM and it converts all java byte code into its own format.