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Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #30 - Posted 2010-05-01 16:40:20 »

Yeah you can distribute the proprietary JRE version along your application as long as you don't modify it. There is limited option to remove some files as described in the readme file, but doesn't help that much for size reduction. You can also (download and) install system-wide JRE if needed from your application installer.
This is one of the big issues I've had with Java. You build a 1mb to 10mb game and then have to slap a 35mb JVM (when compressed) into the installer or zip.

If it's not allowed... how come its on the front page

In their overview they say they can do scripting with JavaScript; one of the languages allowed on the iPhone.

Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 81
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #31 - Posted 2010-05-01 16:44:07 »

If it's not allowed... how come its on the front page


the changes and ban only come into play with the new OS 4.0 which is not out yet.
Offline elias4444

Junior Devvie





« Reply #32 - Posted 2010-05-01 17:05:01 »

Well, if Java doesn't work out for me, I think I'm out of the game business.

I toyed with moving over to C/C++/Obj-C for years now, and I just hate it. I remember going from Assembly to Pascal, and thinking that Pascal was such a great leap forward. Then, I went from Pascal to ColdFusion and PHP for work, and then eventually to Java. Java felt like a generational leap forward again with it's garbage collection and JIT compiler. I preferred writing my code once and then letting a VM optimize it for a given platform. Just like when computer hardware started allowing dynamic memory range allocation with early Apple computers (so two programs wouldn't both try to grab the same memory addresses that had to be manually specified), Java opened the door for dynamic memory management and garbage collection; gone were the days of memory leaks and compiled applications that wouldn't run on a given computer because it's processor didn't support some extension or another (like MMX, certain AMD chips, etc.). Gone were the long days of compiling and hard-to-read code.

Now, with that in mind, can you see how C++ seems like a major step backwards to me? I'd be going back to manual memory management (although I know there are a few GC libraries out there now), hard to read code, compiling for specific platforms or processors, and having to deal with platform specific libraries. I've been there, and I'm done with it. Programming should be getting easier, not harder. Coding languages should get easier to read, more open, and more dynamic... not harder. In my own bad attitude, I think C++ is an elitist language that has outlived it's usefulness for everything but the most low-level of jobs (like kernel development or compilers). So there, bah humbug!  Tongue

Now, with that all vented out of my system. I do look forward to some future possibilities. Ruby is looking good, and if they can continue pushing ahead without stalling out, I think it's got a good chance (version 1.9 just introduced a JIT compiler!). And who knows what the future might bring!? HTML5 is certainly moving in the right direction, and the whole web-browser as a VM concept is intriguing (although it makes me laugh at times, as it feels so much like what Java did in the early days, letting different operating systems build their own VMs).

I guess we'll wait and see! Thanks for letting me rant... I really needed to get some of this out of my system.

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Offline Mr_Light

Senior Devvie


Medals: 1


shiny.


« Reply #33 - Posted 2010-05-01 17:07:06 »

Well, personally, I still think Java is the language for me.  It's possible that something might look better latter on, but right now nothing does.  Javascript is ubiquitous but would drive me insane (I code JS at work and it's evil). 

yeah that

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline thyskl

Junior Newbie





« Reply #34 - Posted 2010-05-01 17:57:42 »

http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.14708.52

Posted 6 years ago; I see not much has changed. Tongue
Offline Cero
« Reply #35 - Posted 2010-05-01 18:28:06 »

On home computers C/C++ games generate less revenue than web based games written in Flash.  This trend is increasing.  Games are polarizing between hard-core big budget console gaming and light, casual, web-based pc and mobile gaming.

revenue, there a misunderstanding.
Obviously, if you want to make money... yeah maybe going to the iphone and stuff is the way

for me, I am not interested in revenue or minigames. and java is the language I have the most experience and knowledge of.
with enough work I could do c++ SDL games too, but there is no advantage over java, even disadvantages like non cross platform (harder to do)

Offline ImNotBacon

Junior Devvie




Don't eat me


« Reply #36 - Posted 2010-05-01 18:32:20 »

I've been playing around with the HTML5 canvas this weekend, and I'm really impressed.  I hope this survives the politics and makes it into IE9.  WebGL would be nice too, but I don't think it has a chance.
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #37 - Posted 2010-05-01 20:43:03 »

Now, with that in mind, can you see how C++ seems like a major step backwards to me? I'd be going back to manual memory management (although I know there are a few GC libraries out there now), hard to read code, compiling for specific platforms or processors, and having to deal with platform specific libraries. I've been there, and I'm done with it. Programming should be getting easier, not harder. Coding languages should get easier to read, more open, and more dynamic... not harder. In my own bad attitude, I think C++ is an elitist language that has outlived it's usefulness for everything but the most low-level of jobs (like kernel development or compilers). So there, bah humbug!  Tongue
There are lots of alternatives to C++ which have garbage collection.

Now, with that all vented out of my system. I do look forward to some future possibilities. Ruby is looking good, and if they can continue pushing ahead without stalling out, I think it's got a good chance (version 1.9 just introduced a JIT compiler!).
You talking about YARV? Although it's MUCH faster then the original, I believe it only compiles to an intermediate bytecode and not all the way down to native code.

One thing I really like the look of is GWT. Compiling Java to JavaScript and HTML. It could potentially be used with WebGL allowing people to continue to use Java, but without the JVM.

Offline ImNotBacon

Junior Devvie




Don't eat me


« Reply #38 - Posted 2010-05-02 04:18:40 »

GWT has a very rigid project structure that integrates tightly with the webpage.  Supposedly, you can use the java-to-javascript compiler to independently convert a module, but I've never been able to get it to work.

One thing I really like the look of is GWT. Compiling Java to JavaScript and HTML. It could potentially be used with WebGL allowing people to continue to use Java, but without the JVM.
Offline elias4444

Junior Devvie





« Reply #39 - Posted 2010-05-02 23:37:32 »

Quote
You talking about YARV? Although it's MUCH faster then the original, I believe it only compiles to an intermediate bytecode and not all the way down to native code.
I think that's the one. It was included in Ruby 1.9 by default. I'm still a total beginner with Ruby.

Quote
There are lots of alternatives to C++ which have garbage collection.
Yep, I've been looking into them. So far though, none that I've taken an interest in (D, Go) seem mature yet. They're still lacking libraries, although I'm not sure what it takes to simply use C libraries with them.

Speaking of using existing C libraries, JNA certainly looks promising (on paper anyway). Does anyone have any experience with it yet? I think there's a Java 6 implementation of it. Would be nice to run Java apps that can call the same C libraries as everyone else (without using the messy JNI method).

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline Momoko_Fan

Junior Devvie


Medals: 2



« Reply #40 - Posted 2010-05-03 02:37:31 »

Actually you guys aren't right about the Unity3D. Most phones will be forced to upgrade to OS 4.0 at some point. And even unity themselves are not sure if the restrictions will apply to them, they are going to have a "discussion" about it with Apple this week.
Offline xinaesthetic

Senior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #41 - Posted 2010-05-04 08:51:01 »

Actually you guys aren't right about the Unity3D. Most phones will be forced to upgrade to OS 4.0 at some point. And even unity themselves are not sure if the restrictions will apply to them, they are going to have a "discussion" about it with Apple this week.
It seems unlikely Unity can be permitted without a policy u-turn from Apple.

As for JNA: I'm sure there are a few people around who've used it.  Looks good, but I haven't really properly looked into it.
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #42 - Posted 2010-05-05 00:26:25 »

TBH I'm not very confident about Oracle's intentions with java, especially regarding games. The fact that so many key figures have left in such a short time and the recent major f*ckups in the JRE releases is quite telling, but hopefully my gut feeling is wrong and these are just signs of a transition period.

I'm currently playing a lot with Android, and so far I'm quite pleased with it. I wouldn't mind something like a 'Android Web Plugin' or something pushed by google, replacing java applets and desktop apps. Same language that we all love, different platform, and an opportunity to do things better this time and undo some of the mistakes.

Offline ImNotBacon

Junior Devvie




Don't eat me


« Reply #43 - Posted 2010-05-06 20:42:05 »

I'd really like to see google make their java/dalvik compiler in gwt more independent and robust.  Google and Apple have a shared vision of a plugin-free future for the web, and I don't really see any faults with if html5 can survive the politics intact.
Offline Spasi
« Reply #44 - Posted 2010-05-07 20:28:12 »

The future of O3D.
Offline pjt33bis

Junior Newbie





« Reply #45 - Posted 2010-05-07 21:02:38 »

Why Sun/Oracle/... must always push it?
Because they own the trademark. Unless they're on board you can't call it Java Gaming Engine, and console manufacturers won't even want to talk to you.
Offline jezek2
« Reply #46 - Posted 2010-05-07 21:22:16 »

Because they own the trademark. Unless they're on board you can't call it Java Gaming Engine, and console manufacturers won't even want to talk to you.

I don't care how it's named, as long it's (almost) the same tech. Console manufacturers won't talk to most of us anyway. Having JVM wouldn't change that. Personally I don't care about consoles either, it's not good platform for indies and some game genres are impossible or suboptimal due to usage of gamepad.
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #47 - Posted 2010-05-07 22:00:29 »

I don't care how it's named, as long it's (almost) the same tech. Console manufacturers won't talk to most of us anyway. Having JVM wouldn't change that. Personally I don't care about consoles either, it's not good platform for indies and some game genres are impossible or suboptimal due to usage of gamepad.
The 360 is a viable platform for indie developers, they are the biggest game markets. Braid is a good example of a title that would not have been anywhere near as big without it's 360 release. The fact that Microsoft took their very similar platform and language and built game a development community, libraries, books and distribution channel is why development with C# is so much more popular.

Professional game development houses will also take console game development more serious if it was a mature and viable option for them (although there are several companies who have built JVMs (or similar) for consoles so they can write their game in Java, but these tend to be exceptions to the rule). Without console support it just doesn't look very attractive to a large studio who wants to release their next title to potentially 5 platforms; 360, PS3, Wii, Windows and Mac OS (where Java will only reach 2). If it's not good for them then why would it be good for us?

Id and Epic Games certainly talk to graphics card and console manufacturers about future hardware; this is partly why their engines are so well made. Getting game manufacturers on board would boost Java maturity for game development (tools, engines, communities, books, talks, etc) and so boost popularity (more Java game developers). This would in turn trickle down to indie developers improving our community. It certainly would not hurt the community and as an indie you'd be able to say "I use a professional language which has support for the Wii/PS3/360".

Finally the converse is also true with gamepads. I'd hate to play Street Fighter with a keyboard and mouse.

Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #48 - Posted 2010-05-07 23:12:27 »

I'll probably go the HTML5 Canvas/WebGL route. I write thousands of lines of JavaScript each month... so it sorta makes sense for me to go into that direction.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline jezek2
« Reply #49 - Posted 2010-05-08 08:31:28 »

The 360 is a viable platform for indie developers, they are the biggest game markets. Braid is a good example of a title that would not have been anywhere near as big without it's 360 release. The fact that Microsoft took their very similar platform and language and built game a development community, libraries, books and distribution channel is why development with C# is so much more popular.

Yes, though it has limitations. I was talking mainly about fullblown games. There is IKVM.NET project which allows to cross-compile from Java to .NET.

Microsoft can do that because they're creators of both 360 and C#/.NET. JVM from 3rd party vendor (Oracle) would be always second-hand citizen. Additionally Sun/Oracle are historically very bad at client-side and gaming, so they wouldn't be even able to create anything that couldn't be called a shame Smiley

The 360 is not the only way to gain huge marketshare, there is for example Steam. Which is even more interesting now that it will support Mac in very near future.

Professional game development houses will also take console game development more serious if it was a mature and viable option for them (although there are several companies who have built JVMs (or similar) for consoles so they can write their game in Java, but these tend to be exceptions to the rule). Without console support it just doesn't look very attractive to a large studio who wants to release their next title to potentially 5 platforms; 360, PS3, Wii, Windows and Mac OS (where Java will only reach 2). If it's not good for them then why would it be good for us?

It's good for us because we're not big AAA studios Smiley There are directly 3 platforms very easily reached by using Java (Win/Mac/Lin) which are all important for indie games, additionally Android and some other by cross-compile tools (eg. the 360, though not sure if IKVM.NET is ready for 360 or not). Apart from the link I posted before why you should support Mac/Linux, there are newest stats about the current Humble Indie Bundle deal:

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Linux-users-contribute-twice-as-much-as-Windows-users
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/The-state-of-Mac-and-Linux-gaming

Id and Epic Games certainly talk to graphics card and console manufacturers about future hardware; this is partly why their engines are so well made. Getting game manufacturers on board would boost Java maturity for game development (tools, engines, communities, books, talks, etc) and so boost popularity (more Java game developers). This would in turn trickle down to indie developers improving our community. It certainly would not hurt the community and as an indie you'd be able to say "I use a professional language which has support for the Wii/PS3/360".

Heh, saying that is just technical masturbation. It's totally irrelevant, users don't care, doesn't help with getting more sales, etc. and if particular language/platform works well for you use that as long as it allows to reach your goals.

Finally the converse is also true with gamepads. I'd hate to play Street Fighter with a keyboard and mouse.

I remember playing fighting games on keyboard and it was quite good, well except the issue that certain combination of keys are blocking each other, but I think that got better long ago. The degradation (if any) is much less than eg playing FPS games on gamepad, not to mention strategy games Smiley
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #50 - Posted 2010-05-08 12:00:56 »

Microsoft can do that because they're creators of both 360 and C#/.NET. JVM from 3rd party vendor (Oracle) would be always second-hand citizen. Additionally Sun/Oracle are historically very bad at client-side and gaming, so they wouldn't be even able to create anything that couldn't be called a shame Smiley
I couldn't agree more, and this is why I don't expect the situation to improve.

Heh, saying that is just technical masturbation. It's totally irrelevant, users don't care, doesn't help with getting more sales, etc. and if particular language/platform works well for you use that as long as it allows to reach your goals.
My point wasn't that it helps the users, but that it helps the developers. I don't think having more books, communities, tools, companies involved with Java Game development is just 'technical masturbation'. As I said this would trickle down to indie developers.

For example C++ is a very popular language for game development used by lots and lots of studios. As a result there are loads of indie developers using it and this is shown online by the greatere numbers of people using C++ on various indie gamer communities. Go into a book store and you will see far more books on C++ game development then with Java. Search online and you'll find far more tutorials using C++, and far more C++ game libraries and tools. Regardless of what people think of C++ itself as a language, all this stuff does help to make it attractive.

I remember playing fighting games on keyboard and it was quite good, well except the issue that certain combination of keys are blocking each other, but I think that got better long ago. The degradation (if any) is much less than eg playing FPS games on gamepad, not to mention strategy games Smiley
If FPS titles didn't work with a game pad then they wouldn't be hugely successful in the console market. Halo, Black, Goldeneye, Call of Duty, Medal of Honour; the list goes on.

In contrast there are practically no successful beat-em-ups on the PC (and emulators don't count as those games were never built for the PC). If beat-em-ups did work well with keyboards then I'd imagine they would be more successful.

Offline woogley
« Reply #51 - Posted 2010-05-08 14:02:23 »

I'll probably go the HTML5 Canvas/WebGL route. I write thousands of lines of JavaScript each month... so it sorta makes sense for me to go into that direction.

Can't agree with this more. I've been writing some canvas games for about a year, and honestly it's a vacation when comparing to developing in Java.

Java still has accelerated drawing, I'll give it that - but JavaScript is so non-fuss when it comes to coding. Having to use Java and its immutable object properties, etc .. is just a drag these days. Also, I've developed a wonderful bias for any language that has functions-as-values (yay Lua!). So I guess my problem isn't with Java specifically, I think I've grown tried of static/strong typing in general.

And for those of you who find JavaScript 'unbearable' - it's true that there are some horrific things about the language. So what you need to do is stop confusing "JavaScript problems" with DOM problems, pick up this book (or watch this video), learn prototypal inheritance, and enjoy a nice, easy, dynamic programming language.
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 68
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #52 - Posted 2010-05-09 03:11:45 »

I've written a lot of JavaScript code, and in my opinion, it's an utterly bad language. I only use it because there is no alternative.

Why someone would use it for real-time game programming is beyond me, it's a wacky little scripting language designed for simple browser UI interaction.

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Offline delt0r

JGO Knight


Medals: 30
Exp: 18 years


Computers can do that?


« Reply #53 - Posted 2010-05-09 07:46:40 »

Perhaps we should stay on topic. Language flame wars are not all that constructive. Except when we are establishing that perl sux Wink

I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious.--Albert Einstein
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #54 - Posted 2010-05-09 10:45:48 »

I've written a lot of JavaScript code, and in my opinion, it's an utterly bad language. I only use it because there is no alternative.
[...]

It's not that bad if you bother to learn the language first. Most people don't, which makes the vast majority of JS code on the web just plain awful.

Everyone just looks at it, thinks it just looks like Java or C/C++, and then they think they know how to use it. And well, that the whole problem. It's an entirely different language which is actually closer to Scheme than those other two and a half languages.

I agree with Woogley, first class functions are indeed lots of fun. And so are closures. Makes you look at problems in an entirely different way. It's very refreshing, really.

Of course it isn't as robust as Java. Or as fast as Java (except for handsets with really bad Java VMs). And the documentation isn't even remotely as awesome as Java's (personally I still think Java's documentation is by far the best there is). But it seems to work ok-ish for small scale projects if you use good tools like Komodo and JSLint.

Thing is, I only got time for really tiny projects. I'm busy with all kinds of silly things 40-60 hours a week, which means there is very little semi-productive spare time.

With Java there is always so much one could do. With JavaScript there isn't.

It's like being in charge of 4 groups with 100 people each. How are you going to keep them busy in a meaningful way? If there is only one group with 10 people, things are a lot simpler. There is a lot less you can do and a lot less wasted potential if you let them build something silly in a retarded way.

Yea, I know. It's probably sorta weird to put it this way, but it's sorta similar to the "freedom" you get when building a 4k game. All of a sudden bad art doesn't really matter anymore. And scale went from virtually infinite to bonsai-size (i.e. totally manageable).

Having strict computational restrictions and maaaaybe some very limited multi-threading (WebWorkers) has a similar effect.

Well, maybe that's just me. Smiley

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline ImNotBacon

Junior Devvie




Don't eat me


« Reply #55 - Posted 2010-05-09 15:05:05 »

I've written a lot of JavaScript code, and in my opinion, it's an utterly bad language. I only use it because there is no alternative.

Why someone would use it for real-time game programming is beyond me, it's a wacky little scripting language designed for simple browser UI interaction.

The high performance javascript engines put the language at a usable speed for gaming, and the language is flexible enough to code in whatever style you want.  But, the main reason is to make a plugin-free browser game.  That seems like a strange or silly thing today, but we're thinking forward.  Two years from now that might not sound so strange.
Offline elias4444

Junior Devvie





« Reply #56 - Posted 2010-05-09 15:44:05 »

Well, I've been looking into the whole javascript (and webGL) thing. I'm impressed by how much faster it runs these days and some of the game demos I found out on the web (especially the HTML5 stuff). I'm curious though as to how one could "secure" it for use with "online" functions (like posting high scores, or multiplayer). Seems like anyone could just take a look at the code, save it, edit it, run it again and do whatever they want with any server feedback code.

Is there a way to prevent such easy hacking?

Offline ImNotBacon

Junior Devvie




Don't eat me


« Reply #57 - Posted 2010-05-09 16:02:58 »

Well, I've been looking into the whole javascript (and webGL) thing. I'm impressed by how much faster it runs these days and some of the game demos I found out on the web (especially the HTML5 stuff). I'm curious though as to how one could "secure" it for use with "online" functions (like posting high scores, or multiplayer). Seems like anyone could just take a look at the code, save it, edit it, run it again and do whatever they want with any server feedback code.

Is there a way to prevent such easy hacking?


Code obfuscators and server-side security.
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #58 - Posted 2010-05-09 16:04:25 »

(eg. the 360, though not sure if IKVM.NET is ready for 360 or not

IKVM requires the Common Language Runtime (think C# JRE), but the 360 only supports the Compact Framework (think C# JME), so it's not a viable option for porting Java to run on 360.

One option would be to use XMLVM to cross compile to C# bytecode, but unfortunately the XMLVM guys don't care about anything other than Java->ObjC so it's practically non-existent (there was just enough code to get a 'hello world' app but only after I'd had to manually fix a whole bunch of compilation issues).

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Online Roquen
« Reply #59 - Posted 2010-05-09 16:39:24 »

I speak without knowledge here, but wouldn't converting to J# be less trouble?
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