Java-Gaming.org    
Featured games (79)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (477)
Games in Android Showcase (107)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (535)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
  I need ideas...  (Read 7088 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Posted 2010-02-25 22:02:53 »

Let's imagine you have a language able to deploy virtual worlds into a browser by a plugin (XML but not X3D - I think it is easier by far than X3D- ). Let's imagine that this plugin is developed and it has features like database binding to 3D elements, is programmable by Java, JScript, has audio (MP3), video onto 3D elements, server-side programming by J2EE, ASP.NET,... etc. HTML is not needed to develop un website, game, ...,etc

What type of model business could you use to exploit it? You want a broad acceptation by community but , at the same time, you need funding for development of an IDE, and own projects based on it.

I need ideas...

P.D: It's is multiplatform (Win,Mac,Linux)
Online Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 744
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #1 - Posted 2010-02-25 22:38:54 »

I'm very curious how you're going to finance this project? It'd take a dozen programmers, artists, support people. Maybe 10 years, give or take a few. A couple million would be a nice to get started.

Oh, and don't even think about an open source community will come 'to the rescue', because such projects only work by heroic efforts from individuals, and a bunch of slackers that get in the way.

What you want is impossible, without a monster budget -- and even then, you're aiming for a one-tool-for-everything, while there are excellent tools that all focus on tiny parts of the problems, doing a heck of a lot better job than any generic tool will every do.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Reply #2 - Posted 2010-02-25 22:59:17 »

I'm very curious how you're going to finance this project? It'd take a dozen programmers, artists, support people. Maybe 10 years, give or take a few. A couple million would be a nice to get started.

Excuse me. When you say "Maybe 10 years, give or take a few. A couple million would be nice to get started", are you referring to development of plugin Huh Or the IDE?? Or what else??


Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Online Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 744
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #3 - Posted 2010-02-25 23:02:15 »

Excuse me. When you say "Maybe 10 years, give or take a few. A couple million would be nice to get started", are you referring to development of plugin Huh Or the IDE?? Or what else??


The entire thing, provided that you have talented people working for you, putting their heart and soul into the project, which will turn out sub-par no matter how hard you work at it.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Reply #4 - Posted 2010-02-25 23:08:04 »


The entire thing, provided that you have talented people working for you, putting their heart and soul into the project, which will turn out sub-par no matter how hard you work at it.

What resources do you estimate are necessary to take a functional demo (Beta) of the plugin with the first or second draft of the language published??
Offline Karmington

Senior Member


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


Co-op Freak


« Reply #5 - Posted 2010-02-25 23:12:25 »

The vision at one point was that everybody who owned a computer would also code a computer to a degree has not been realized:
Blogging is most common, Second Life the closest thing to a working system. There are lots of various systems out now, similar in concept and
competing for a still unrealized dream of cyberspace.
Trying to really distill and focus the idea to some specific project would seem necessary, like a 3d gallery space, or...
Well there's the brunt of the problem: what do we really want virtual worlds for?
To play in, takes years of effort to make decent games.
To work in, some visions of functional remote control operation of machinery etc
To pron in, Second Life is generously populated with strip shows
It's got to be so good i can conjure a table, two sticks and balls and play pool? : No rules needed, you have to pick up the balls yourself though.
Should it be able to whiz me out to space? Or visit the nubile Leather Goddeses of Phobos? Some virtual worlds were created in text only.
Maybe read Neuromancer or some science fiction stuff to inspire?

Online Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 744
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #6 - Posted 2010-02-25 23:12:47 »

What resources do you estimate are necessary to take a functional demo (Beta) of the plugin with the first or second draft of the language published??

Bwa..., w... well.. the language?

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Reply #7 - Posted 2010-02-25 23:24:33 »

Bwa..., w... well.. the language?

Yes. Perhaps I haven't explained myself correctly. When I have said a virtual world, I understand it like a virtual environment supported by an XML language (the environment is not coded, but declared in an XML file). This virtual environment can be modified and interact with it, by events written in Java or Javascript, link some properties of elements to values in databases , etc... But all is based on a XML format. The environment can be so big as you want. Even you can hiperlink between environments.
Offline SimonH
« Reply #8 - Posted 2010-02-26 01:04:23 »

The idea is certainly a good one, but there are a lot of things to consider, most notably: 'Who pays for it?' and 'Who gets paid from it?'.
I think Riven is being a tad pessimistic with the 10yr & £2m figures - I'd say 1yr & £0.25m. Either way it's a big investment by someone & what do they get in return? In an ideal world the state would back this for the obvious advantages it would bring, but hey! There's bombs to buy, people to kill, you know how it is...

People make games and games make people
Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Reply #9 - Posted 2010-02-26 01:21:32 »

Perhaps it could be better understand if you see this video (Excuse me. It is a bit big and it is zipped)

   www.tridimens.com/temp1/demo.zip


And the tool I used to capture the screen, lost too much quality
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Online Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 744
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #10 - Posted 2010-02-26 09:21:19 »

I think Riven is being a tad pessimistic with the 10yr & £2m figures

I think I'm wildly optimistic with those figures. In fact, nobody has pulled off something like this. Large companies are working 5+ years on AAA games, that don't have nearly the features described here, and have had a solid code base to start from, not to mention big investers for daily operation. And they certainly aren't creating threads like 'I need ideas..' which is a clear indication of where this project will be headed.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Online Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 744
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #11 - Posted 2010-02-26 09:49:45 »

I just saw the video, and although it looks nice, for a one-person-team, it feels like a glorified modelloader, not an engine. Building a game out of such XML is horrific.

Anyway, judging from your video, you seem to have this personal problem with me, so I'll abstain from further comments, as I don't want this thread to end in a flamewar.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Reply #12 - Posted 2010-02-26 10:57:03 »

I just saw the video, and although it looks nice, for a one-person-team, it feels like a glorified modelloader, not an engine. Building a game out of such XML is horrific.

Anyway, judging from your video, you seem to have this personal problem with me, so I'll abstain from further comments, as I don't want this thread to end in a flamewar.

Excuse me Raven. It was just a joke. I don't have something against you. If you have felt bad, I'm sorry. I need some ideas about business, not about tech.

In any case, and based over your commentaries , you are agree with me in this is a great product if it is a reality. Even with your negative point of view, you have helped me in reafirming my idea it could not be an only  open source product. Thanks for this point of view from the deep of my heart. I'm sorry if you have felt offended. It wasn't my aim.
Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Reply #13 - Posted 2010-02-26 11:20:32 »

This weekend, I'll try to upload another video showing the programmability in Java and data binding. By this way, you'll see that is not just a model loader.
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #14 - Posted 2010-02-26 14:56:38 »

No, put the examples online. Don't bother with huge videos when you can supply the real thing.

You also need to get a site made showing the examples, with tutorials, feature list, etc. I'd recommend distributing it for free in order to maximize use. If you manage to get lots of people using it then you have an audience you can try to sell products too.

Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Reply #15 - Posted 2010-02-26 17:39:34 »

No, put the examples online. Don't bother with huge videos when you can supply the real thing.

You also need to get a site made showing the examples, with tutorials, feature list, etc. I'd recommend distributing it for free in order to maximize use. If you manage to get lots of people using it then you have an audience you can try to sell products too.

I'm working in the site. When it will be ready, I'll announce it here between others sites. But the first thing is solve the business model, in order to be enough open to be widely adopted and enough "closed" for funding itself and make seed grow.
Offline DzzD
« Reply #16 - Posted 2010-02-26 20:55:51 »

Yes. Perhaps I haven't explained myself correctly. When I have said a virtual world, I understand it like a virtual environment supported by an XML language (the environment is not coded, but declared in an XML file). This virtual environment can be modified and interact with it, by events written in Java or Javascript, link some properties of elements to values in databases , etc... But all is based on a XML format. The environment can be so big as you want. Even you can hiperlink between environments.
did you ever eard about WRML ?? I dont get it, what would be the difference with blaxum contact ? and websites like vr4all   ?

Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Reply #17 - Posted 2010-02-26 21:36:12 »

did you ever eard about WRML ?? I dont get it, what would be the difference with blaxum contact ? and websites like vr4all   ?

Yes. I do. Of course. Simplicity (have you examined X3D?), database binding, better programmability, native input elements (textboxes,memos..) ,  and someother things like those. It is most RIA oriented. In any case , is bad for market two options?
Offline DzzD
« Reply #18 - Posted 2010-02-26 22:04:37 »

have you examined X3D?

yes as soon as it came out, and just think that it was already dead before it born, too complexe as many other file fomrat try of this century that try to handle any possible cases


the problem I see is that I eard what you say like : (if I understand it, wich may not be the case Smiley)

Imagine a declarative language that enable you to deploy 3d world in any browser and can do whatever is possible to do, what do you thinnk ?

it is impossible to make such thing (to large area of application) that handle any possibilities, it would be better to secialise it in something (and that's IMHO why WRML never known huge success and why X3D have no futur), also what would be the benefit against using Java or any other 3D plugin ?

Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Reply #19 - Posted 2010-02-26 23:30:23 »

the problem I see is that I eard what you say like : (if I understand it, wich may not be the case Smiley)
Tongue WinkSmiley)))))))

Imagine a declarative language that enable you to deploy 3d world in any browser and can do whatever is possible to do, what do you thinnk ?
I don't think the language and the viewer can do all whatever is possible. Really it enables to you to do it, and avoid wasting your time in the basis. Waste your time in repeating one and another time the same things. You can do with little verbosity and, for newbies, little knowledge of 3D programming decent environments. After this, if you evolve and you learn shaders, Java programming ,etc... you can begin to do complex things. But if you are a average designer wich want to implement part of your entire site in 3D (some day) you can do the models, textures and after this,  even with a notepad you can put your scene in your site.

it is impossible to make such thing (to large area of application) that handle any possibilities,
I don't agree with this
it would be better to secialise it in something (and that's IMHO why WRML never known huge success and why X3D have no futur),
I agree with this. But I think there are many reasons for this.

also what would be the benefit against using Java

You don't need programming in OpenGL, nor Java. You only need to declare your environment. And if you need a little complex behaviour, you have built-in functions. Only if you need medium-high or specialized functions need Java or Javascript to do it.

or any other 3D plugin ?

I hope that it could be free or almost free, with all its power.
Offline DzzD
« Reply #20 - Posted 2010-02-26 23:37:36 »

Quote
Really it enables to you to do it, and avoid wasting your time in the basis. Waste your time in repeating one and another time the same things. You can do with little verbosity and, for newbies, little knowledge of 3D programming decent environments.

ok, this just seems extremly difficult for me to design but it would be inded a very nice program, a decent studio (WYSIWYG) in addition will help a lot

Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Reply #21 - Posted 2010-02-27 01:10:27 »


a decent studio (WYSIWYG) in addition will help a lot

I agree with you. This is the key for its success.

Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #22 - Posted 2010-02-27 01:38:13 »

Quote from: a6767
You don't need programming in OpenGL, nor Java. You only need to declare your environment.
But you still need to learn the correct XML markup; which tags to use, where and why. I don't see this as being that different to having to learn an api for use with Java.

Offline tom
« Reply #23 - Posted 2010-02-27 01:43:19 »

Why should I use your plugin instead of Unity, that is free and has an easy to use editor?

Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Reply #24 - Posted 2010-02-27 10:30:21 »

But you still need to learn the correct XML markup; which tags to use, where and why. I don't see this as being that different to having to learn an api for use with Java.

You avoid doing an entire application in OpenGL. Do an OpenGL app is not the easiest thing in the world. At the fact, there are many people who would desire to do casual games by example, they know some javascript programming and no more. Or there are many Java programmers that must go from zero to make an 3D program with all the bugs, tutorials ,etc that it brings. I think there is a big difference between learning 20 or 25 labels and make an OpenGL application.
Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Reply #25 - Posted 2010-02-27 10:58:50 »

Why should I use your plugin instead of Unity, that is free and has an easy to use editor?

a) I begun with this project great time ago. Unity didn't exist
b) I want to make many things with this, but I want an open format too which many people could use for many things that, in this moment nor you nor I can imagine. Till I where know, Unity is propietary format. My format will be not closed.
c) Unity can make similar things. But, for example, you only can program in C# and js at the client side. There are many people which doesn't know NET programming. NET is propietary , Java is not
d) For example, database access in Unity is by C# programming. Here is declarative and you don't need Java to bind databases to your program. You only need something like

[...]
<DATASET Name="MyDataset" Statement="select * from valorestest1">
    <FIELD Name="MyField2" FieldName="Sales" attachedto="TheSales.Scale"/>
[...]

And no more

The main problem is: How to build an enterprise and make it grow while maintaining the most open all the products? That is: Not being Unity.
Offline JL235

JGO Coder


Medals: 10



« Reply #26 - Posted 2010-02-27 14:15:46 »

b) I want to make many things with this, but I want an open format too which many people could use for many things that, in this moment nor you nor I can imagine. Till I where know, Unity is propietary format. My format will be not closed.
c) Unity can make similar things. But, for example, you only can program in C# and js at the client side. There are many people which doesn't know NET programming. NET is propietary , Java is not
The MS implementation of .NET is proprietry, but its also free and that's what matters. Unity is also free for non-commercial use, and have a no-fees royalty based license for first time developers (so you only pay if you make money).

You've mentioned someone could use just notepad for building an application, but no real developer uses notepad. For real development you need tools which exist for .NET, Unity, JavaScript, Java and many others. You don't need those tools to write for those platforms/languages, but it'd be silly not to use them. Personally a lack of good IDE support is commonly what puts me of trying many niche languages.

d) For example, database access in Unity is by C# programming. Here is declarative and you don't need Java to bind databases to your program. You only need something like

[...]
<DATASET Name="MyDataset" Statement="select * from valorestest1">
    <FIELD Name="MyField2" FieldName="Sales" attachedto="TheSales.Scale"/>
[...]
I still think your overestimating how easy your system is. Sure it'll be easier then building it all yourself from the ground up, but there are lots of libraries that already exist for making 3D, video, database interaction and scripting easier.

IMHO I think you should make it closed source and free for non-commercial use, but also offer two more licenses for paid-use (one with and one without source). You should also get some developers involved to build some large full examples for you, like complete games.

But you also need a site, tutorials, online examples and an IDE (for which I'd recommend building it as an Eclipse plugin). It's this stuff that really makes the difference between good and bad libraries/frameworks.

Offline a6767

Senior Newbie





« Reply #27 - Posted 2010-02-27 15:42:18 »

You've mentioned someone could use just notepad for building an application, but no real developer uses notepad. For real development you need tools which exist for .NET, Unity, JavaScript, Java and many others. You don't need those tools to write for those platforms/languages, but it'd be silly not to use them. Personally a lack of good IDE support is commonly what puts me of trying many niche languages.

Above I've said in many messages that this is the key. So, I agree with you.

IMHO I think you should make it closed source and free for non-commercial use, but also offer two more licenses for paid-use (one with and one without source). You should also get some developers involved to build some large full examples for you, like complete games.
Yes. I am thinking about that, and I think is the only way to evolve. It cannot be so free

But you also need a site, tutorials, online examples and an IDE . It's this stuff that really makes the difference between good and bad libraries/frameworks.
I'm in this point. But the IDE (a good one) is not an easy task
Offline m77

« In padded room »

« Reply #28 - Posted 2010-04-07 01:52:25 »

I always was confused how Java in its early age (and still) had such a slow and not comfortable graphics API and let Flash to become what it has became. All professional gfx stuffs works with pixel array.
Offline jackteddy

Innocent Bystander





m77
« Reply #29 - Posted 2010-04-07 10:06:51 »

was just browsing and happened to stumble on to your game. time well spent Smiley

Get the best and cheap shoulder bags for you by visiting my site. Avail upto 70% discount on all travel shoulder bags
Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

pw (37 views)
2014-07-24 01:59:36

Riven (38 views)
2014-07-23 21:16:32

Riven (26 views)
2014-07-23 21:07:15

Riven (28 views)
2014-07-23 20:56:16

ctomni231 (59 views)
2014-07-18 06:55:21

Zero Volt (50 views)
2014-07-17 23:47:54

danieldean (42 views)
2014-07-17 23:41:23

MustardPeter (44 views)
2014-07-16 23:30:00

Cero (60 views)
2014-07-16 00:42:17

Riven (57 views)
2014-07-14 18:02:53
HotSpot Options
by dleskov
2014-07-08 03:59:08

Java and Game Development Tutorials
by SwordsMiner
2014-06-14 00:58:24

Java and Game Development Tutorials
by SwordsMiner
2014-06-14 00:47:22

How do I start Java Game Development?
by ra4king
2014-05-17 11:13:37

HotSpot Options
by Roquen
2014-05-15 09:59:54

HotSpot Options
by Roquen
2014-05-06 15:03:10

Escape Analysis
by Roquen
2014-04-29 22:16:43

Experimental Toys
by Roquen
2014-04-28 13:24:22
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!