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Offline uj

Junior Devvie





« Posted 2010-02-01 12:59:30 »

Is JOGL 2 supporting any 64 bit operating systems?
Offline uj

Junior Devvie





« Reply #1 - Posted 2010-02-10 08:06:37 »

Is it obvious or doesn't anyone know?
Offline kappa
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« Reply #2 - Posted 2010-02-10 19:21:30 »

I can confirm JOGL works for me on linux 64bit.
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Offline gouessej
« Reply #3 - Posted 2010-02-10 19:22:37 »

It works fine for me on Linux 32 bits and Linux 64 bits, I have recently used both JOGL 1.1.1a and JOGL 2

Offline lhkbob

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« Reply #4 - Posted 2010-02-11 02:40:55 »

It works for me on Mac OS 10.6.2, which is 64 bit.  I don't think I'm using 64bit binaries however.

Offline uj

Junior Devvie





« Reply #5 - Posted 2010-02-12 09:28:18 »

Thank you.

Doesn't there exist some list of officially supported platforms? I haven't been able to locate one.

Well, I guess everything is in flux right now. Hopefully Oracle makes a firm committment to OpenGL. I just cannot understand why such an important standard isn't part of core Java. Hobby projects aside, what company would use Java for game or scientific visualization developments if Java doesn't support OpenGL? Java is supposed to be platform independent for heavens sake but doesn't support the most important platform independent standard in graphics. It's so lame it's almost funny.
Offline kappa
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« Reply #6 - Posted 2010-02-12 09:33:46 »

hmm, which platform are you talking about?
Win, Mac, Linux and Solaris (both 32bit and 64bit) are all supported by JOGL, unless you had another platform in mind.

There is also LWJGL which like JOGL also has an OpenGL binding, again it supports Windows, Mac, Linux, Solaris (again both 32bit and 64bit).
Offline princec

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« Reply #7 - Posted 2010-02-12 09:50:24 »

Java also is in desperate need of DX10 support before it becomes even remotely interesting to real game developers.

Cas Smiley

Offline uj

Junior Devvie





« Reply #8 - Posted 2010-02-12 15:48:13 »

hmm, which platform are you talking about?

I'm talking about the official list of Jogl supported platforms. Version X of Jogl supports the following platforms, Y1, Y2, ... and YN. Platforms Z1, Z2, ... and ZN are not supported but are known to work. That list.

For Jogl to be credible such a list must exist. Otherwise it's a morass. You cannot depend on what people claim at forums.
Offline uj

Junior Devvie





« Reply #9 - Posted 2010-02-12 16:38:00 »

Java also is in desperate need of DX10 support before it becomes even remotely interesting to real game developers.

Well, in the best of worlds both are supported but as it stands none is supported and that's stupid beyond comprehension.

At least initially I think OpenGL has priority because it's portable and an industry standard and that's more in line with how Java is positioned. Also what you can do in DirectX you can also do in OpenGL. Although DirectX dominates gaming right now there still are some OpenGL enabled games and things can change if Khronos gets their act together.

By the way I note that Sun was a "Khronos Promoting Member Company". It's all a big laugth isn't. Whatever Sun promoted with Java it definately wasn't OpenGL.


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Offline princec

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« Reply #10 - Posted 2010-02-12 18:12:24 »

Java's had OpenGL support for over 5 years now, and as of today, has fully supported OpenGL3.2 on all main desktop J2SE platforms and architectures (thats i386, x64, PPC, Solaris, Linux, Mac OS 10.3+, and Windows 2000 onwards), through the ever-present ever-brilliant LWJGL library, which unlike JOGL, is not at the mercies or whims of corporate shenanigans.

So basically what I'm saying is: OpenGL support is already brilliant.

Now we need DirectX APIs for All The Other People.

Cas Smiley

Offline uj

Junior Devvie





« Reply #11 - Posted 2010-02-12 20:44:32 »

So basically what I'm saying is: OpenGL support is already brilliant.

And I'm saying that claims made by individuals aren't good enougth. To be worth anything such claims must be supported by firm evidence. In short, show me the list.

Note that Java has no official OpenGL support at the moment. OpenGL is not part of Java. There exists different non-official OpenGL initiatives though and I can live with that. But what I need is a list of what exact  platforms these projects are committed to support. I haven't been able to locate any.

Without any firm commitments of what exactly is supported the OpenGL support can hardly be characterized as "brilliant". I would rather call it shaky.

As an example have a look at this,

http://java.sun.com/javase/6/webnotes/install/system-configurations.html


Offline gouessej
« Reply #12 - Posted 2010-02-12 22:47:45 »

I won't turn this thread into a JOGL versus LWJGL debate, you already know my opinion concerning Linux support of LWJGL.

JOGL is used by the commercial game Wakfu. As far as I know, JOGL is supported on Windows, Solaris and Linux, there are some problems with the second version on Mac but the first one (1.1.1a) works quite reliably. JOGL 2 is the only currently maintained Java binding of OpenGL-ES. It has become anew a community project like LWJGL, it has nothing to do with Sun/Oracle (therefore we are not at the mercies of any corporations unlike princec said).

Offline Riven
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« Reply #13 - Posted 2010-02-12 23:16:34 »

And I'm saying that claims made by individuals aren't good enougth. To be worth anything such claims must be supported by firm evidence. In short, show me the list.

[snip]

Without any firm commitments of what exactly is supported the OpenGL support can hardly be characterized as "brilliant". I would rather call it shaky.


What exactly do you want?

Community A, B, and C saying a specific OpenGL binding is supported => worthless
Company X saying a specific OpenGL binding is supported => priceless

As gouessej said: neither LWJGL nor JOGL are supported by Sun/Oracle, or any other company for that matter. Is a webpage with a massive table with Operating System names and ticks/checkboxes really that much worth to you? That's naive. Lots of technologies made by Sun/Oracle are officially supported, and they are bugged beyond belief (applets/webstart/awt/swing).

Ask the people that are using the bindings, and the people installing and playing the games, that's what matters.

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Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

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Hand over your head.


« Reply #14 - Posted 2010-02-12 23:28:53 »

I just cannot understand why such an important standard isn't part of core Java.
Because Java is a platform, and there are zillion different uses, and nobody benefits if they all get included in the JRE.

Also, once your lib is in the JRE, it's virtually feature-frozen, and will have to be supported in that state, for eternity. Like we have CORBA (or AWT/Swing for that matter) in the JRE, because some moron thought that that was convenient for have it all included. Every bugfix causes regressions (not to mention new bugs!), and you cannot easily ship your own (known to work) version of a certain lib (like Swing) because there aren't any version numbers, and every vendor has it's own quirks anyway.

Hobby projects aside, what company would use Java for game or scientific visualization developments if Java doesn't support OpenGL?
Companies that know how to include 3rd party JARs in their projects. Lips Sealed

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Offline DzzD
« Reply #15 - Posted 2010-02-12 23:52:49 »

what company would use Java for game or scientific visualization developments if Java doesn't support OpenGL?

scientific visuaisation ? there is a little society called Nasa that do it, about others ? hum... mine !  : we produce web 3d projects and games all in Java with and without opengl (but as said above as an external librarie ==> same version for every visitor ==> no/less regression)

Java is supposed to be platform independent for heavens sake but doesn't support the most important platform independent standard in graphics. It's so lame it's almost funny.
the fact that it does not include opengl as a requierment for all target device make it even more compatible !


Offline Mr. Gol

Senior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #16 - Posted 2010-02-13 11:31:11 »

But what I need is a list of what exact  platforms these projects are committed to support. I haven't been able to locate any.

If you download LWJGL you'll see that there are native libraries for Windows, Mac OS X, Linux and Solaris. Windows 95 and 98 support was dropped in version 2.0, meaning the oldest Windows version still supported is Windows 2000. The oldest Mac OS X version still supported is 10.4, but it's nearly impossible to find someone still on 10.3 anyway. For Linux I don't know because there are so many different combinations, plus the drivers are extremely unreliable. For Solaris I don't care because there are only two people using it. 64 bit Windows, Mac and Linux work ok, I don't know about 64 bit Solaris.

And yes, this list should exist somewhere in the LWJGL documentation. But like any open source project documentation is lacking.
Offline uj

Junior Devvie





« Reply #17 - Posted 2010-02-13 11:37:44 »

Ask the people that are using the bindings, and the people installing and playing the games, that's what matters.

It's okay for hobby developments, but not for commersial developments. If you think someone would "bet the company" on heresay at a forum you're more than a little naive.

I've realize I've asked at the wrong forum so I stop here.
Offline princec

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« Reply #18 - Posted 2010-02-13 11:56:54 »

No, this is the right forum, as there is no other forum. Most of the professional Java / graphics developers hang out here. Do you know who I am etc etc etc.

If this pleases you:

As an administrator of the LWJGL project, director of Shaven Puppy Ltd (Puppygames), moderator of JGO, and professional in the broadcast video and graphics industry, I would like to assure you that your needs are entirely met with LWJGL, and will continue to be met for as long as you support us. The project is liberally licensed under Open Source and hence cannot simply vanish, and is actively developed still and will continue to be actively developed. Anyone is free to join in development of LWJGL, and you don't necessarily have the time or skills, you are encouraged at least to donate funds to our very lean operation. LWJGL's greatest benefits are not being owned by a single corporate and not being closed source and not being supplied directly with the JRE*

LWJGLs commercial customers that I have directly supplied systems to include Associated Press Television News (live TV graphics output) and Sony Broadcast & Professional Research Labs. There are several game studios using LWJGL for commercial products. All of these depend on the continued support and success of LWJGL.

If you would like an even more thorough response please contact us at lwgl.org or PM me for a chat via email.

Cas Smiley

* I used to moan about this but in these days of modularisation I am now quite glad it's the way it is

Offline uj

Junior Devvie





« Reply #19 - Posted 2010-02-13 12:26:37 »

If this pleases you:

In fact it doesn't. Don't take it personal but to me you're just anybody posting at a forum.

If you are who you claim to be you should understand my concern. I don't have the kind of insight into LWJGL that you have. So for the benefit of me and other commersial developers I suggest you use your influence to improve the LWJGL site. Would it be so darn hard to produce a list of all supported platforms? No ifs or buts or maybes, just the plain facts in writing. We at LWJGL are committed to support these platforms. Reduce the bull and increase the hard facts.
Offline Riven
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« Reply #20 - Posted 2010-02-13 12:46:15 »

Bureaucracy for the winner!

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Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 439
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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #21 - Posted 2010-02-13 12:50:06 »

We don't take too kindly to bureaucracy. From the FAQ - we are doing this with spare time because we simply don't receive enough community support to do it full time. Not even 1% of the required support in fact, and I think this goes some way towards showing what the real demand for high performance clientside graphics is.

I do not feel the need to prove who I am to you - after all, you're a nobody on a forum too, and right now we're just a charity and my time is limited. However, there are numerous ways you can contact me officially which I have outlined that you may wish to try, which I won't be posting directly on a forum.

Cas Smiley

Offline Mr. Gol

Senior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #22 - Posted 2010-02-13 14:47:00 »

Argh... here we go again. UJ, do you really want to know which platforms are supported by LWJGL? Or do you just want to criticize something and attack everyone who doesn't agree? Searching finds http://www.java-gaming.org/topics/java-versus-c/12551/view.html , and according to Woogley's post there you have been banned several times from different forums, so I see no reason to not call you a troll.
Offline princec

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« Reply #23 - Posted 2010-02-13 16:50:14 »

If uj is half serious he'll get in contact. If he's properly serious, he'll donate a few thousand dollars or contribute something that's missing from LWJGL.

Cas Smiley

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

« JGO Overlord »


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Hand over your head.


« Reply #24 - Posted 2010-02-14 00:10:56 »

If uj is half serious he'll get in contact. If he's properly serious, he'll donate a few thousand dollars or contribute something that's missing from LWJGL.

Cas Smiley

Thousands of dollars to make anyone put a table on your site? Seriously, that's all he needs Wink

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Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 439
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« Reply #25 - Posted 2010-02-14 11:32:32 »

Actually we know the website's a bit out of touch, nobody's gotten around to updating it nicely for ages. It could do with a bit of a revamp. We had something of a wakeup call when googling for "java opengl bindings" doesn't turn up lwjgl.org on the first page...

Cas Smiley

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

« JGO Overlord »


Medals: 848
Projects: 4
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Hand over your head.


« Reply #26 - Posted 2010-02-14 13:13:58 »

You should start using meta tags in the head of the html page (keywords/description) and add OpenGL to the document title. For SEO, that's probably enough. The website could use a revamp, but that takes a lot of time compared to the changes just mentioned.

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Offline Mr. Gol

Senior Devvie


Medals: 1



« Reply #27 - Posted 2010-02-16 10:40:10 »

You should start using meta tags in the head of the html page (keywords/description) and add OpenGL to the document title.

Meta keywords are no longer used by both Google (http://www.google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=79812) and Bing (http://www.bing.com/community/blogs/webmaster/archive/2009/07/18/head-s-up-on-lt-head-gt-tag-optimization-sem-101.aspx), so I wouldn't bother with that.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #28 - Posted 2010-02-16 16:15:16 »

I can confirm JOGL is used in several scientific applications as I work on one of them Cheesy

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