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  JOGL2 Newt future  (Read 4208 times)
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Offline Cork

Junior Member




vote 6uN for OSX


« Posted 2009-10-23 21:22:17 »

With all the reorganisation/uncertainty at Sun,  are we likerly to see further progress?  Sven's site was down recently and rolled back to exclude the newt blog.  Does that mean work has stopped?  Is someone still driving JOGL or has the focus shifted to FX?  Would be a shame to see things fade again after all the great progress recently.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #1 - Posted 2009-10-24 10:24:25 »

I agree with Cork. Please Sun, clarify the situation in order to improve the adoption of JOGL 2.

Offline cegoes

Senior Newbie





« Reply #2 - Posted 2009-10-26 12:55:48 »

This is tipical of SUN let the users alone, and discontinue API's like JAI(Java Advanced Imaging), JMF(Java Media Framework), JavaTV, Java Communications, Java USB... Now I don't think the OpenGL is the target of Oracle. Bad for us.
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Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 798
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #3 - Posted 2009-10-26 13:01:27 »

Thank [insert your favorite divine entity here] for LWJGL!

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Offline gouessej
« Reply #4 - Posted 2009-10-27 08:40:03 »

Thank [insert your favorite divine entity here] for LWJGL!
Yet another useless provocation... JOGL won't be given up but there is an uncertainty concerning only newt.

Now I don't think the OpenGL is the target of Oracle.
Do you have any evidence?

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #5 - Posted 2009-10-27 09:51:47 »

Word on the grapevine is that Oracle aren't too interested in fancypants clientside experience.

Riven's comment may be a provocation ( Kiss ), but it's entirely valid: so long as there are two entirely divorced projects dealing with hardware accelerated OpenGL, no-one has anything to seriously worry about if they want to do hardware accelerated OpenGL. It sounds facetious, but, there you have it.

Cas Smiley

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 798
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #6 - Posted 2009-10-27 10:19:49 »

Yet another useless provocation... JOGL won't be given up but there is an uncertainty concerning only newt.
Do you have any evidence?

At the rate Sun is firing people, and the rate Oracle will continue to fire people, 'desktop technologies' might very well in serious danger.

Sun is bleeding and Oracle will squeeze out every last drop.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline gouessej
« Reply #7 - Posted 2009-10-28 09:27:20 »

At the rate Sun is firing people, and the rate Oracle will continue to fire people, 'desktop technologies' might very well in serious danger.

Sun is bleeding and Oracle will squeeze out every last drop.
Sven Goethel has not yet been fired. Therefore, JOGL is not yet in danger. JOGL has been used for years by several public and private organizations including the NASA, it is not comparable with JavaTV and JavaUSB. Keep cool. Long life to JOGL  Grin

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #8 - Posted 2009-10-28 09:57:06 »

I think it's fairly obvious that Jogl2 and Newt are pretty much internal projects now solely for use with JavaFX. As far as Sun/Oracle is concerned the fact that they're released as open source and other people may gain some benefit from them is entirely tangential and not something Sun as a corporation actually cares about supporting.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline gouessej
« Reply #9 - Posted 2009-10-28 10:49:16 »

I think it's fairly obvious that Jogl2 and Newt are pretty much internal projects now solely for use with JavaFX. As far as Sun/Oracle is concerned the fact that they're released as open source and other people may gain some benefit from them is entirely tangential and not something Sun as a corporation actually cares about supporting.
It is not obvious for me. Why do you see JOGL 2 as an internal project? Sven have encouraged programmers to switch from JOGL 1.1.1 to JOGL 2, Sun needs a reliable OpenGL binding for JavaFX, the fact that JOGL 2 is open source may help it. The bugs found in JOGL 2 can have an impact on JavaFX, I think Sun cannot support only a subset of JOGL 2 that is considered useful for JavaFX. Therefore, it needs to take care of the whole support.

Several engines (at least Ardor3D) plan to use JOGL 2, I assume their developers do not consider JOGL 2 as an internal project of Sun, otherwise they would plan to use only JOGL 1.1.1b.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #10 - Posted 2009-10-28 11:28:53 »

You only have to look over the history and type of issues - things like builds not being available, minimum version of gl being not 1.1 until people asked for lower support, new extensions not being added, image/texture loading being broken, etc. etc.

Jogl2 development is clearly being driven almost entirely by JavaFX requirements, not by requirements to make a general purpose OpenGL binding. At the moment it seems that if you're using functionality not being used by JavaFX then there's a large chance that it might not work (or only work in certain circumstances).

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #11 - Posted 2009-10-28 12:19:06 »

JavaFX is also sucking away resources from java2D, but there have been some improvements for both java2D and JOGL.

Java2D's D3D pipeline rocks.

And JOGL's security-dialog-free feature is sensational.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #12 - Posted 2009-10-29 12:32:00 »

You only have to look over the history and type of issues - things like builds not being available, minimum version of gl being not 1.1 until people asked for lower support, new extensions not being added, image/texture loading being broken, etc. etc.

Jogl2 development is clearly being driven almost entirely by JavaFX requirements, not by requirements to make a general purpose OpenGL binding. At the moment it seems that if you're using functionality not being used by JavaFX then there's a large chance that it might not work (or only work in certain circumstances).
Ok it seems plausible. If you're right, it is a bit sad  Cry The texture loading was not completely broken, there was only a small problem in AWTTextureIO, there was a evident workaround and it did not have any impact on programs using directly the class Texture and creating instances of this class only on the OpenGL thread when the context is current.

Offline cegoes

Senior Newbie





« Reply #13 - Posted 2009-10-30 12:00:47 »

I hope that Google adquire Oracle ...
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #14 - Posted 2009-10-30 12:26:16 »

Hm, there's absolutely no possibility of that corporation being the most evil corporation in the world is there  persecutioncomplex

Cas Smiley

Offline bienator

Senior Member




OutOfCoffeeException


« Reply #15 - Posted 2009-10-30 15:38:44 »

I hope that Google adquire Oracle ...
and MS Google, (just to have a well defined enemy again Wink)

Offline gouessej
« Reply #16 - Posted 2009-10-31 12:52:34 »

I hope that Google adquire Oracle ...
Why? Google has nothing magic. Enough is enough, too much people have been fired! Google is too much libertarian to be considered as stupidly capitalist but it is too much capitalist to be considered as simply libertarian.

and MS Google, (just to have a well defined enemy again Wink)
Please I'm going to eat, don't take my appetite away by speaking about Microsoft.

Offline cegoes

Senior Newbie





« Reply #17 - Posted 2009-11-01 03:37:02 »

Do you have any evidence?

Well I will not call an evidence, but enter in this link(http://jcp.org/en/jsr/results?id=3945) and look the votes for the JSR-231(Java Binding for the OpenGL). More specifically look the vote of Oracle and see if they think OpenGL is important for their business.

Sorry, but with Oracle in charge we are alone.

Cheers
Offline bienator

Senior Member




OutOfCoffeeException


« Reply #18 - Posted 2009-11-01 12:58:29 »

Sorry, but with Oracle in charge we are alone.
apart from not having a public jsr, not much would change

Offline gouessej
« Reply #19 - Posted 2009-11-04 13:21:03 »

Well I will not call an evidence, but enter in this link(http://jcp.org/en/jsr/results?id=3945) and look the votes for the JSR-231(Java Binding for the OpenGL). More specifically look the vote of Oracle and see if they think OpenGL is important for their business.

Sorry, but with Oracle in charge we are alone.

Cheers
Of course, it is not an evidence, Oracle did not vote. JOGL is alive  Grin

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 798
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #20 - Posted 2009-11-04 15:51:11 »

Of course, it is not an evidence, Oracle did not vote. JOGL is alive  Grin

In software, there are at least three states: dead, alive and discarded.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline Cork

Junior Member




vote 6uN for OSX


« Reply #21 - Posted 2009-11-06 21:30:27 »

I think the lack of positive feedback, or 'official' feedback into this thread says it all.  I'm kinda sad today, I had some high hopes of JOGL one day catching up with flash.  The newt deployment option sounded like a good chance to have some simple, super fast cross platform browser embedded 3D apps.  Although the plugin2 under osx seems to have also fallen through the cracks right now. sigh. Is there enough community involvement to keep JOGL alive?  I'm kinda stuck in limbo now wanting to finish & release a small game, but I was really hoping I could go embeded browser rather than webstart again.  The whole applet fallback approach just wasn't working.  Anyone care to have a go at writing a demo gears embeded JOGL app that runs across at least windows and osx?  with descriptions for config and required dependencies from JOLG2... basically the part 2 of the applet blog Sven never got around too...
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 77
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #22 - Posted 2009-11-06 21:45:52 »

I'm kinda sad today, I had some high hopes of JOGL one day catching up with flash.  The newt deployment option sounded like a good chance to have some simple, super fast cross platform browser embedded 3D apps.

why not give LWJGL's applet stuff a spin, thats pretty much alive and kicking and it already uses a native window system for applets much like newt and with a really nice applet loader to download and deploy your files and natives.
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #23 - Posted 2009-11-07 00:22:42 »

Is there enough community involvement to keep JOGL alive? 
You could trawl though the svn logs, but I'd be surprised if you found more than a single check-in from a non-sun employee to either Jogl or jogl2.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline bienator

Senior Member




OutOfCoffeeException


« Reply #24 - Posted 2009-11-07 02:14:49 »

giggle told me there are 20 authors. (Project->Properties->Authors). Providing patches and having commit rights are two distinct things... not a good measure. (jogl was/is the implementation of a JSR, its repo is no playground)

Anyway, regarding news... there is something going on behind the scenes, just wait one or two weeks. Reading this thread (and other) i am just wondering... Common guys, software is no religion.

Offline sgoethel

Junior Member




keep the source alive


« Reply #25 - Posted 2009-11-10 04:41:50 »

Well, the 'accident' with my homepage has nothing to do with Sun/Oracle,
but with my previous provider Webserve Canada Smiley
Whoever has the missing data, pls email it to me, I would be glad to add it back again.

However, yes, JOGL/NEWT/etc could not have been continued by myself
in it's free spirit as long I was employed by Sun, due to policy changes.
This problem is now solved.
We might want to cont. this discussion in the new thread I have started .. long live JOGL Smiley


JogAmp [ GlueGen, JOAL, JOGL, JOCL, ..]
http://www.jogamp.org
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