From Reddit: **** you Sun! Bundling trialware with the latest Java update is BS!

[CyanPrime]

http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/9mlum/f**k_you_sun_bundling_trialware_with_the_latest/

[Matzon]

+1 idiotic to say the least - and then opt out, what a bunch of *

[erikd]

Is this what Schwartz talked about earlier?
In any case, this is really bad 

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[gouessej]

I don't want to see this when updating:

[Mr. Gol]

Is the checkbox checked by default (I always forget if that's 'opt-in' or 'opt-out')? That would be even worse.

[bienator]

I want the google toolbar back! 

[Abuse]

I just did an update (1st i've done since Dec 08!), and didn't see this - all I got was the old google toolbar package ( 1.6.0_15-b03 ) - Which is also an opt-out 

What version is this suppopsed to come packaged with? is it certain regions only?

[Abuse]

Is this what Schwartz talked about earlier?
In any case, this is really bad 

Schwartz needs to have his hands cut off - I find his flailing hands very distracting in that video!

[Mike]

According to the one that took the screenshot it is checked by default, he just took the screenshot after he unchecked it.

[zammbi]

Meh really don't care myself, its gotta pay somehow. Though I hope to see quicker updates because of this!

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[Riven]

asterisk asterisk asterisk asterisk Sun!

End user experience finally was on the way up... and now this.

I'm so happy my boss already gave up on clientside Java.
I wouldn't have been able to defend this crap.

[DzzD]

just crazy.... Sun must have a special Section looking for what can make end-user go away from Java... damn those people should have been fired out for such stupid idea....

[ChrisM]

Actually, the opt-out has been present for any random install the JRE pulls down (Open Office, Yahoo & Google toolbars, Puzzle Pirates, etc.). 

[erikd]

So what opt-out will be next? Porn?

[ChrisM]

So what opt-out will be next? Porn?

Well, hold on a sec.  You really can't equate the two.  Opt-out of a generally acceptable app vs. opt-out of a porn installer is not the same thing.

[Riven]

It's just that it gets getting worse all the time, for the end user that is, the JRE is getting better. Remember what happened to RealPlayer? At the rate Java Updates are pushed out, people will be annoyed several times, mistakenly install stuff they don't want, and then uninstall Java because they are sick of it. I didn't like the Google Toolbar, but hey, you guys need to make some millions, for hosting costs and a fair profit, I understand, but these applications are 'unknown, untrusted and therefore overall scary', which is several orders of magnitude worse than a Google Toolbar. You 'guys' might want to think twice about wasting the goodwill you have left.

[ChrisM]

It's just that it gets getting worse all the time, for the end user that is, the JRE is getting better. Remember what happened to RealPlayer? At the rate Java Updates are pushed out, people will be annoyed several times, mistakenly install stuff they don't want, and then uninstall Java because they are sick of it. You 'guys' might want to think twice about wasting the goodwill you have left.

Actually, the JRE does not always pop up an opt-out/install 3rd party app window every time Java is updated, it is randomized.  As for the comparisons to RealPalyer, they are really different.  RP wanted use case information, personal data, etc. and would push offers even after the install was done and when you would go to just play a media file.

As it stands today, the system generates revenue for Sun that is pumped back into developing the platform.

[Riven]

As it stands today, the system generates revenue for Sun that is pumped back into developing the platform.

Okay. Let's say (this is 100% hypothetical) that you'd demand $1 for each JRE install.
Surely you could say that every dollar received would be pumped back into devloping the JRE, but at what cost ? If you scare off your end users, there won't be that much $1 payments.

I honestly think that this shareware is a step too far. End users barely accept toolbars from known vendors, anything further and people will either be annoyed (which is bad enough, even if they complete the install), or click the conveniently placed 'Cancel' button.

[ChrisM]

Okay. Let's say (this is 100% hypothetical) that you'd demand $1 for each JRE install.
Surely you could say that every dollar received would be pumped back into devloping the JRE, but at what cost ? If you scare off your end users, there won't be that much $1 payments.

I honestly think that this shareware is a step too far. End users barely accept toolbars from known vendors, anything further and people will either be annoyed (which is bad enough, even if they complete the install), or click the conveniently placed 'Cancel' button.

To be clear, I have no part in the install deals that Sun strikes, that is the Java organization. 

Now, as I am honestly curious to hear other alternatives, how do you think Sun should generate revenue from their development effort of Java?  Again, I am really interested in hearing people's perspectives on this.

[Eli Delventhal]

Charge out the butt for tech support?

[Orangy Tang]

This shit right here is why you hear users saying "don't install java, it'll break/slow down your machine". It's not the jre persay, but the extra apps that get randomly bundled with it. They don't know/care to differentiate between the core jre and the bundled crap, so they'll just avoid the whole thing - and worse, tell their friends to avoid it too.

And I notice whatever idiot makes the installer *still* can't manage to get logos at their correct size and instead resort to some really crappy looking scaling. Unprofessional touches like that are a red flag to users that make them think they're installing some kind of dodgy malware.

[kevglass]

Now, as I am honestly curious to hear other alternatives, how do you think Sun should generate revenue from their development effort of Java?  Again, I am really interested in hearing people's perspectives on this.

How have Sun been funding it all these years? Yeah, I know it's quick to say they haven't and thats the problem, but they really have been cashing on the market where Java really shines, enterprise server side development. Compliance testing, support, consulting and licensing to these markets has to be emminently more cash producing that targetting an emmerging market for Java like client side.

If Sun/Oracle need to make more money out of Java then shouldn't they use business sense and charge the people who make money out of the product and have lots of cash to blow - the Enterprise. Trying to cash in the market where you're already viewed as one of the weakest players is like taking a stick to your consumers and driving them to the other less encumbered alternatives (read Flash/Air/Javascript).

Kev

[SimonH]

I am really interested in hearing people's perspectives on this.

Though bundling shareware with updates is a really bad idea from my point of view, I can see that monetization is required. How about if installing or updating means you have to go to a webpage which contains (very valuable!) ad space? You could promote other products there, but avoid inflicting scary pop-ups or unwanted installs on the end user.

[ChrisM]

This shit right here is why you hear users saying "don't install java, it'll break/slow down your machine". It's not the jre persay, but the extra apps that get randomly bundled with it. They don't know/care to differentiate between the core jre and the bundled crap, so they'll just avoid the whole thing - and worse, tell their friends to avoid it too.

The thing is, general users are not saying that.  They just aren't.

And I notice whatever idiot makes the installer *still* can't manage to get logos at their correct size and instead resort to some really crappy looking scaling. Unprofessional touches like that are a red flag to users that make them think they're installing some kind of dodgy malware.

This, I totally agree.  The folks doing the installer need to do better.

As for Kev and SimonH's posts, I can't say I disagree with you.  The business and revenue side of Java is evolving and the people at corp are watching carefully.

[CommanderKeith]

What a horrible way to push software - trick consumers into installing something they didn't even want by making it opt-out.

Why can't java just be a programming language invisible to the end user?

I bet this extra advertising money is only needed for funding javaFX - which is a big unnecessary drain of resources. Swing, Java2D and JOGL have languished due to javaFX.

How about if installing or updating means you have to go to a webpage which contains (very valuable!) ad space? You could promote other products there, but avoid inflicting scary pop-ups or unwanted installs on the end user.

This is a much better idea

[Orangy Tang]

The thing is, general users are not saying that.  They just aren't.

I hear it all the time. From a "mom & pop" user's point of view, it goes something along the lines of:

1. Installs "java" because some game/app told them to during install.
2. End up installing Open Office / Carbonite Backup / whatever because they don't know if it's optional or needed, and because they just blindly click 'next' though installers anyway.
3. Curse when either a. Open Office pinches the Word/Excel file extensions ("it broke Word") or b. Carbonite starts dragging their system to a crawl with a scheduled backup or c. other installed app finishes it's trial period and starts opening nag screens every boot.
4. Blame the problem on "this java thing it said I needed to install". Wait for tech savy person to uninstall the problem app, then mentally remember to never install anything with the word "java" in it again.

I know you mean well Chris, but when was the last time you actually got roped into doing tech support for a non-tech savy friend? It's a completely different world out there and people will make broad generalisations and group anything in the same installer (or anything that *looks* like it's in the same installer) into one thing, and so if *anything* causes problems they'll blame the whole thing and never touch it again. It's even worse when the installer in question is for something intangable like java where they don't see any end result other than the spam-ware bundled with it.

[kappa]

What really sucks about this is that its shown/pushed out on updates. Its understandable if this was done on a fresh install and download of java, but for updates? thats going too far IMO. Why punish end users by making them go through a full install process each time for an update (mostly due to bugs put there by sun in the first place). Java should really take a page from the flash update process here, simple unobtrusive progress bar, that completes with almost a single click and then disappears.

[ChrisM]

I hear it all the time. From a "mom & pop" user's point of view, it goes something along the lines of:

1. Installs "java" because some game/app told them to during install.
2. End up installing Open Office / Carbonite Backup / whatever because they don't know if it's optional or needed, and because they just blindly click 'next' though installers anyway.
3. Curse when either a. Open Office pinches the Word/Excel file extensions ("it broke Word") or b. Carbonite starts dragging their system to a crawl with a scheduled backup or c. other installed app finishes it's trial period and starts opening nag screens every boot.
4. Blame the problem on "this java thing it said I needed to install". Wait for tech savy person to uninstall the problem app, then mentally remember to never install anything with the word "java" in it again.

Completely understand this and we, being more technically inclined than most, have heard this before.  I just don't hear it much with Java.

I know you mean well Chris, but when was the last time you actually got roped into doing tech support for a non-tech savy friend? It's a completely different world out there and people will make broad generalisations and group anything in the same installer (or anything that *looks* like it's in the same installer) into one thing, and so if *anything* causes problems they'll blame the whole thing and never touch it again. It's even worse when the installer in question is for something intangable like java where they don't see any end result other than the spam-ware bundled with it.

Thanks   And you would be surprised how often I am called for "tech support" from family/friends (The other night, I was walking a family member through adding a wireless router that has a hidden name to their network list. At 11:00PM.  GAH!)  I am sure that most of us here have experienced this before.

I have no argument for you OT, and understand your POV.  Again, I am not responsible, but I can give input to those who are.

[bienator]

installed 6u16 on a fresh WinXP VM image and saw no additional software installers and all images had the right size.
maybe its a vista thing... (the scaling issue)

[Riven]

Offtopic:
   Even the WinXP installer has a RED banner as header.
   It looks like some security alert.
   Make it BLUE, please.