From Reddit: **** you Sun! Bundling trialware with the latest Java update is BS!

[ShannonSmith]

This is simply the result of an attempt to maximize a cost/benefit equation. The problem here is the benefits are very short term tangible dollars versus long term difficult to quantify intangible costs. My opinion and I suspect that of many JGO members is that the costs of doing this have been grossly underestimated.
 

[zammbi]

Sounds like people only want products they trust (non shareware), so google tool bar, yahoo tool bar, open office otherwise nothing at at all.

Though I hear flash also includes some stuff in there installer too.

and all images had the right size.

I believe the person had high dpi settings on when he took the screen shot.

[erikd]

Well, hold on a sec.  You really can't equate the two.  Opt-out of a generally acceptable app vs. opt-out of a porn installer is not the same thing.

I know. I should've added a wink as I wasn't all serious with that remark.
But whatever opt-out is in the installer, I dunno, it does make java seem a bit sleazy...

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[dishmoth]

Presumably Sun will stop advertising random third party apps once they've got the Java App Store to advertise instead..?
Simon

[princec]

Well done Riven for spotting the red banner - aarrgh! Hurt the guy who deployed that, with a spike! A red one!

FWIW - bundling software's not my bag at all. I think the admittedly considerably less effective but far more friendly technique of simply advertising software would be the way to go here. I'd pay a small fortune to advertise Puppygames on a Java installation.

Although I share Orangy's concerns about broken software tainting the image of Java, what's really needed is actual hard facts, not anecdotal evidence (or way or the other, Chris ), so until someone can come up with some actual facts about Java uninstallations then everyone can argue till they're blue in the face, no-one's going to take any notice.

Cas

[erikd]

Although I share Orangy's concerns about broken software tainting the image of Java, what's really needed is actual hard facts, not anecdotal evidence (or way or the other, Chris ), so until someone can come up with some actual facts about Java uninstallations then everyone can argue till they're blue in the face, no-one's going to take any notice.

OTOH, you can't measure uninstallations if they weren't installed in the first place because of a tainted image.

I think the real issue here is the vision displayed by Sun of what java's user experience should be like in general.
In my opinion, it should be as unobtrusive and smooth as possible, while sometimes it seems Sun just doesn't give a **** about user experience on the desktop, which might as well the main reason java seems to consistently fail to gain acceptance on the desktop.
All this (opt-in bloatware, unprofessional installers) also doesn't seem to quite fit with how much Sun invested in JavaFX and better plugins, well the technical part in general.

[h3ckboy]

Offtopic:
   Even the WinXP installer has a RED banner as header.
   It looks like some security alert.
   Make it BLUE, please.

well, in my opinion it seems that read is java's 'color'.

[Markus_Persson]

This is simply the result of an attempt to maximize a cost/benefit equation. The problem here is the benefits are very short term tangible dollars versus long term difficult to quantify intangible costs. My opinion and I suspect that of many JGO members is that the costs of doing this have been grossly underestimated.

Indeed.

Nothing says quality like trying to trick customers into installing unrelated software.

[princec]

I wish they'd just charge for an embeddable or redistributable super-fast VM license. I.e. the 2-tier compiler and G1 collector. I'd pay $1000 for a redistribution license for that. But they'd have to provide a clean room MacOS implementation too.

Cas

[swpalmer]

And I notice whatever idiot makes the installer *still* can't manage to get logos at their correct size and instead resort to some really crappy looking scaling. Unprofessional touches like that are a red flag to users that make them think they're installing some kind of dodgy malware.

Not likely their fault.  MSI is broken in this regards.  You can't predict 100% what the size of the bitmap needs to be, and the UI will scale it (very poorly).  I think it all depends on font sizes, DPI and such that are currently set in the system prefs.

I tried to do this with my own MSI installer and learned the hard way.  Their bitmap scaling is so broken it will introduce coloured streaks where there were solid colours in some cases

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[Swattkidd7]

Completely understand this and we, being more technically inclined than most, have heard this before.  I just don't hear it much with Java.

LOL You must be kidding me, maybe because people know you are affiliated with Java so they dont want to hurt your feelings because I hear it ALL the time, anytime I try and send my games to friends or at a family members house, its everywhere!

[DzzD]

well, in my opinion it seems that read is java's 'color'.

who really know.... they change their design every year.... blue-yellow-red / orange-white / red-white

fun to look java.com in the past : http://web.archive.org/web/*/java.com

[zammbi]

Gotta love their purple/yellow/red design: http://web.archive.org/web/20021029201755/java.sun.com/getjava/
 

[ImNotBacon]

This is another symptom of an overall branding failure by Sun.

I'm not sure if they realize that Java is, for the vast majority of users, the only face they see of Sun Microsystems.

What message does Java give? It's a mysterious software package that the user never directly invokes, but supposedly gives them access to other programs. During installation, it tries to trick them into installing other software. When they search for it, they're confronted with a creepy, eyeless mascot that shares a nickname with feces.

[trembovetski]

OTOH, you can't measure uninstallations if they weren't installed in the first place because of a tainted image.

Actually this is easy to track - the installer can ping when the user cancels the installation at that page.

I'm pretty sure this info is available - but it's likely internal only.

I know that we run different installers versions offering the same product with slightly different pictures/wording, and track which ones get installed which isn't to maximize the number of people who agree to install the product.

Dmitri

[Riven]

Actually this is easy to track - the installer can ping when the user cancels the installation at that page.

I'm pretty sure this info is available - but it's likely internal only.

I know that we run different installers versions offering the same product with slightly different pictures/wording, and track which ones get installed which isn't to maximize the number of people who agree to install the product.

Dmitri

I think you miss the point a bit, Markus said that Java wasn't installed in the first place, which I'm sure meant: not even downloaded too. That's impossible to track.

[princec]

One can track download page hits versus downloads, which though not quite the same thing, gives a little indication.

I don't think people really have much of a problem downloading and installing Java (at least not on Windows anyway) - it's a pretty standard, painless affair for 99.9% of users. I think mostly the issue stems from the fact that prior to plugin2, which is what everyone has, the Java experience has probably been bad enough to simply turn everyone off of the idea of using it. I notice Flash 10.1 has proper 3D. I think that's Game Over on the applet front - I can't think of any reason to use applets now, really. If Webstart got revamped into being a proper installer/updater service, somewhat like a combination of Steam and NSIS capabilities, that'd probably help a bit in some other areas.

Cas

[zammbi]

Looking at some of there latest 3d demos are not bad at all: http://alternativaplatform.com/en/alternativa3d/

I see they have 10.1 on android: http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/

[Abuse]

Looking at some of there latest 3d demos are not bad at all: http://alternativaplatform.com/en/alternativa3d/

I see they have 10.1 on android: http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/flashplayer10/

[not so interesting observation]

The temple & bunker demos are peculiar; they only applies AA when the camera is stationary for 1/2 a second.

[zammbi]

Well the 3d itself isn't great (Java is a clear winner here). But I found the apps were user friendly. A nice loading bar which loaded very quickly, and then it loads all its resources in the background. No problems at all.

[princec]

That's just software 3D - no better or worse than 3ddz's software rendering on Java AFAICT. 10.1 apparently brings hardware acceleration to the table (http://www.adobe.com/devnet/logged_in/jchurch_flashplayer10.1.html has a precious little more info), with all the same smooth seamless installation and simplicity that Flash has always had. Anybody got a beta to try those 3d thingies out in?

Cas

[JavaMan2]

Hi guys,
I was just prompted to update Java. I thought I'd show you the two screens I got. Here is the first dang advertisement. OpenOffice.


But here is the really pathetic screen.



By the way, the Yes, I want Bing Toolbar for Internet Explorer was automatically checked. Oh, and another thing. The image quality of the UI installer is total crap. The images I inserted here are straight crops of a screen shot, and my I don't have my resolution at 800*600 I hope Oracle will get the Java deployment experience better. Sigh

[princec]

Grief, that's awful

Cas

[Riven]

It was supposed to be a 'Java Marketplace' right?

So where are the products ? Please make it so that we have to see N products and have to press [ Next ] as many times.

Please make the checkbox randomly checked for every product. Preferably uncheck the first 3, so that we have this sense of security, and we will just blaze through the 2 last products that are checked by default.

[jezek2]

Seems private JREs are definitely the way to go, thanks Sun for resolution of this dilemma

[kappa]

I just got a java update message on Windows Vista. The installer started and completed as normal but I didn't see any ad's (apart for the openoffice ones) or any option asking me to install a toolbar. It was *shock* a pretty good update experience (minus the two next buttons i had to click which could be reduced to just one click), maybe the toolbar thing only appears randomly or something? 

[Riven]

maybe the toolbar thing only appears randomly or something? 

Yup, that's what ChrisM said.

[ChrisM]

LOL You must be kidding me, maybe because people know you are affiliated with Java so they dont want to hurt your feelings because I hear it ALL the time, anytime I try and send my games to friends or at a family members house, its everywhere!

LOL all you want, but it's the truth.  And no, most of the people I know are not affiliated with Java, at all.  Worst case is they have to download Java and so through the install.