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  Java VS Mono ==> Java is d00med  (Read 4814 times)
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Offline darkprophet

Senior Member




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Posted 2009-06-09 10:33:46 »

Read this:

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2009/Jun-08.html

Quote
We picked Sony's PhyreEngine  to demostrate how to use Mono to write the high-level code for a game using Sony's finely tuned engine. We figured this was better than showing a for loop printing the numbers 1 to 10 on the screen.

....

We were also working on completing Mono's port to the PlayStation 3's native operating system (this is different than running Mono on Linux on the PS3: that already works, and it was used for developing CellDotNet, a JIT for the PS3's SPUs). Zoltan developed the static compiler for PowerPC and I did the platform support.

Mono can now run "Hello World" on the PS3 native OS. There are still lots of ins, lots of outs and lots of whathaveyous that need to be tied up before this fully works and before we are able to run PhyreEngine# on the PS3.

Anyone wanna develop for the PS3 for free?

Heh,
DP Smiley

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

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Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #1 - Posted 2009-06-09 11:15:58 »

So if i understand correctly, .net is actually now capable of running on consoles (PS3 and X360).
That's both really cool (I mean, that's as close to java on consoles as we're probably going to get), and a bit sad (I would've preferred java there, of course)

Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 43



« Reply #2 - Posted 2009-06-09 11:21:50 »

Hmm, so how about doing the same with GCJ or IKVM

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Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #3 - Posted 2009-06-09 11:53:44 »

Maybe we should collectively buy a PS3 devkit and just go for it and port a JVM. And LWJGL while we're at it.

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
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I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2009-06-09 11:53:51 »

sad indeed - I mean, Java IS already working ON the PS3 - but not really being mentioned for game devlopment - maybe NDA related who knows?
I do know that Sony Home uses Java for the minature games. So in some way you can invoke the VM from within

Offline bienator

Senior Member




OutOfCoffeeException


« Reply #5 - Posted 2009-06-09 11:53:58 »

or http://www.xmlvm.org/ which is even freakier. Just decompile(!) java into sourcecode of your language of choice and use native compilers and optimisers to compile it to the target platform.

>Java VS Mono ==> Java is d00med
javagaming on platform x maybe - reducing java to gaming is a little bit unrealistic.

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #6 - Posted 2009-06-09 11:54:35 »

Maybe we should collectively buy a PS3 devkit and just go for it and port a JVM. And LWJGL while we're at it.
or sun could ... or sony - someone NOT indie

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #7 - Posted 2009-06-09 12:02:50 »

or sun could ... or sony - someone NOT indie

Why?

An open source java based games development solution for PS3 doesn't sound so bad to me. And who knows, an actual release on PSN of an existing java game might help getting the money back of the devkit.

And waiting for Sun and Sony for this hasn't proven very fruitful so far has it?

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
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Monkey for a head


« Reply #8 - Posted 2009-06-09 12:55:15 »

Maybe we should collectively buy a PS3 devkit and just go for it and port a JVM. And LWJGL while we're at it.

Money isn't the issue - you need to be a licensed developer before Sony will even think about letting you look at the price list for hardware. And that usually means being an established company with (secure) offices and a proven track record of published games.

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Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #9 - Posted 2009-06-09 13:31:56 »

Money isn't the issue - you need to be a licensed developer before Sony will even think about letting you look at the price list for hardware. And that usually means being an established company with (secure) offices and a proven track record of published games.

I'm sure some of the companies using LWJGL could pull it off if they were interested and had the money.

e.g. Puppygames or Oddlabs Tongue
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Offline SunshineKiller

Junior Member





« Reply #10 - Posted 2009-06-09 13:39:41 »

ill admit that ive been thinking of switching to mono and this might help me go that way. Thats cool news, to bad the jvm isnt  built on the ps3. That wouldve been cool. Just seems like C# is becoming the way to go.

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Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #11 - Posted 2009-06-09 13:45:22 »

There must still be ways to publish an indy game without being a zillion dollar company. Everyday Shooter might be an exception to the rule, but there's also Sony's Pub Fund that might be worth checking out. I'm sure it's not easy, though.

But, you have to *really* want to publish on PSN. I mean, it's biggest virtue is that it's the only way to deliver smaller games on PS3 and if you do manage to get your game on it, you won't have much competition.
Other than that, PSN as a store is a mess and Sony's Pub Fund forces exclusivity.

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #12 - Posted 2009-06-09 13:56:33 »

sad indeed - I mean, Java IS already working ON the PS3 - but not really being mentioned for game devlopment - maybe NDA related who knows?
I do know that Sony Home uses Java for the minature games. So in some way you can invoke the VM from within

So it seems this whole thing could be in fact a non-issue and in fact it looks likes Java is even ahead of .NET on PS3..
If there's already java that can be used for gaming (outside of a Bluray Disk), I guess the core issue is the accessibility of the PS3 platform as an indie developer?

Offline ImNotBacon

Junior Member




Don't eat me


« Reply #13 - Posted 2009-06-09 17:17:17 »

or http://www.xmlvm.org/ which is even freakier. Just decompile(!) java into sourcecode of your language of choice and use native compilers and optimisers to compile it to the target platform.

>Java VS Mono ==> Java is d00med
javagaming on platform x maybe - reducing java to gaming is a little bit unrealistic.

Has anyone tried using this?
Offline ewjordan

Junior Member





« Reply #14 - Posted 2009-06-09 19:25:10 »

XMLVM comes up every now and again.  It's a great solution as far as getting Java code to run on another platform, but the real guts of the work is that you need to create a compatibility layer.  In other words, you need to mirror the target API in Java to do graphics, sound, UI, or anything else platform specific, which can be a lot of work if you want full access to the target API.  I doubt it will ever be easy to develop something in LWJGL and use XMLVM to port it elsewhere; however, to my understanding, if you're happy only to test your program once compiled to the target language, you don't need real implementations for all the calls, you just need to have a mockup interface and set up XMLVM to route the calls properly, so it might be more feasible.

But I don't know if anyone's really using it in production.
Offline ImNotBacon

Junior Member




Don't eat me


« Reply #15 - Posted 2009-06-09 23:36:34 »

My game uses a modular rules engine, and I've been thinking about porting it to other platforms, or even running it as JavaScript from within Java. The only parts of the API it uses is java.util.Vector and java.util.Stack.

I was experimenting with Java2Script, but this looks even better.
Offline thiagosc

Senior Newbie





« Reply #16 - Posted 2009-06-26 19:16:10 »

I read this thread some time ago and I had some laughs.

When was Java a real contender in the gaming industry? Never. Very few people actually use it. And it is not like the game industry is wanting it desperately. As a matter of fact, the initial hype surrounding Java and its slowness have forever scarred it for game developers, even if today things aren't like that anymore.

So how is it any different than what was before? Sun isn't a game company, then don't expect them to do anything for Java in that department besides some useful libraries like JOGL bindings and whatnot. Especially now with the open source JDK.

Microsoft can try to push C# in their Visual Studio, but even then C++ is still the standard, especially because of the speed and portability to other platforms. So, how is this "good news" for C#? Just because someone is building a version of some engine that nobody will ever use for real things?

If some people really want to see Java used in games then they must pull a Steve Jobs and just do it.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #17 - Posted 2009-06-26 22:03:45 »

I read this thread some time ago and I had some laughs.
Giving up is easier than fighting. Sorry but I'm fed up. Java won't become a viable solution for gaming without efforts but enjoying with saying it will never happen does not help at all. Ankama Games chose JOGL for its game "Wakfu", things are changing, slowly.

Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #18 - Posted 2009-06-26 22:36:28 »

Giving up is easier than fighting. Sorry but I'm fed up. Java won't become a viable solution for gaming without efforts but enjoying with saying it will never happen does not help at all. Ankama Games chose JOGL for its game "Wakfu", things are changing, slowly.
Perhaps I'm reading a different reply here but where is thiagosc, saying java won't become a viable solution for gaming? or that ppl should give up?
The way I read it his point is that all the enabling technology in the world means nothing without it actually being used to create something good and grand.

and how does JOGL factor in this anyway?

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline SunshineKiller

Junior Member





« Reply #19 - Posted 2009-06-27 15:18:23 »

couldnt we make a mono wrapper to load jvm stuff Cheesy

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Offline thiagosc

Senior Newbie





« Reply #20 - Posted 2009-06-28 01:46:48 »

couldnt we make a mono wrapper to load jvm stuff Cheesy

And get sued by Microsoft if by any chance it actually gets used? No, thanks. They have this videogame business going on, and if you actually get to be a perceived threat, even if only potential and not a real threat, they will do anything to stop you.

Using Mono is asking to get raped. Do you really think they would let something like that on competing platforms such as the PS3?
Offline gouessej
« Reply #21 - Posted 2009-06-28 16:11:10 »

Using Mono is asking to get raped. Do you really think they would let something like that on competing platforms such as the PS3?
I agree with you, programmers do not realize how dangerous it is, it exposes them to prosecutions.

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