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  third party library copyright issues  (Read 6437 times)
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Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


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« Posted 2003-09-18 23:37:59 »

I was thinking about the third-party libraries earlier and realised that we really havn't credited the authors and have possibly voilated their copyright (most licenses require you to list the distributions terms etc...).

I think we should have (in the xith3d cvs tree) a readme text file in the third-pary folder that listed all of the third party libraries along with, their versions, copyright holders and main download location or other contact details.  Also, we probably should have a copy of their respective licenses in each folder.

While this is not a huge issue now, probably a good one to get out of the way.  

Is all of the code BSD-licensed?  The vorbis library for example?  Someone writing a closed-source (or simply non-GPL)  application will have to be carefull if using a feature of Xith which uses GPL code (ie they will have to not use that feature).  More importantly the vecmath library being so intergral - I guess the one is the Sun one?  Has anyone tried this one: http://objectclub.esm.co.jp/vecmath/?  If that latter is reliable it's probably good to switch to that... Sun have a rather energetic legal team after all Wink

Normally it would be the developer of a program that would worry about such matters (eg in the case of Java, how to distribute the JRE) but in this case, we are distributing the libraries along side Xith3D rather than telling people where to get them and because of that we should make the legal stuff very clear (ie. tell people what the deal is and make sure they know they should check it all out themselves).

Will.

Offline DavidYazel

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #1 - Posted 2003-09-18 23:46:36 »

The Vorbis library is LGPL. I agree that we should post and publish any necessary license statements and copyright notices as is legally required.

As far as I know the current copyright holders are:

ShavenPuppy BSD - spatial objects
Xith3D Development Group - BSD
Vorbis - LGPL - Ogg reader
JOGL - BSD
JOAL - BSD
Vecmath - Sun Microsystems
John Ratcliff - BSD - Sphere trees
xith_utilities - David Yazel



David Yazel
Xith3D Project Founder
http://xith3d.dev.java.net

It may look complicated, but in the end it is just a bunch of triangles
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #2 - Posted 2003-09-19 00:42:39 »

thanks for that list - the only questionable thing I can see is the vecmath library.

Reading this: http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/3D/java3d-1_3_1-license.html

and in particular:
Quote

2. License to Distribute Software.  In addition to the license granted in Section 1 (Software Internal Use and Development License Grant) of these Supplemental Terms, subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, including but not limited to Section 3 (Java Technology Restrictions) of these Supplemental Terms, Sun grants you a non-exclusive, non-transferable, limited license to reproduce and distribute the Software in binary code form only, provided that you:

(i) distribute the Software complete and unmodified and only bundled as part of your Programs,

(ii) do not distribute additional software intended to replace any component(s) of the Software,

(iii) do not remove or alter any proprietary legends or notices contained in the Software,

(iv) only distribute the Software subject to a license agreement that protects Sun's interests consistent with the terms contained in this Agreement, and

(v) agree to defend and indemnify Sun and its licensors from and against any damages, costs, liabilities, settlement amounts and/or expenses (including attorneys' fees) incurred in connection with any claim, lawsuit or action by any third party that arises or results from the use or distribution of any and all Programs and/or Software.


Looks like the Xj3D people have also made their own implementation: http://www.web3d.org/TaskGroups/source/doc/org/web3d/vecmath/package-summary.html
no idea where to get it though (I guess it's bundled as part of Xj3d?)

Will.

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Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #3 - Posted 2003-09-19 01:14:57 »

ok, I have added the licenses of JOGL, JOAL and JOrbis into their respective folders in the third-party directory, and started a third party license readme file.  Should cover our backs for now Smiley.

Will.

Offline DavidYazel

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2003-09-19 01:33:43 »

Shawn kendall is working on a new vecmath library.  Hopefully he will release it with a BSD license.  If so we can switch.

David Yazel
Xith3D Project Founder
http://xith3d.dev.java.net

It may look complicated, but in the end it is just a bunch of triangles
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #5 - Posted 2003-09-27 16:01:19 »

I just released a chuck of the vecmath API.
The post is over at:
http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=share;action=display;num=1064642997

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #6 - Posted 2003-09-29 00:11:31 »

edit for readability Smiley

thanks for the library, I might plug that in and give it a spin with Xith3D tonight, see if it behaves itself Smiley

To summerise the Third-Party library issues:
* the Java3D native dep is gone,
* and it looks like Java3D vecmath dep is on the way out
* once the xith_utilities future is clarified, we will be good to go.

When people start distributing their projects, the distribution issue will be extreemly important, so I think it is wise to resolve it early.  I shall conduct some tests with the vecmath against the example code I have and aganst the official demos (com.xith3d.test).

Will.

Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #7 - Posted 2003-09-29 02:38:31 »

I'm sorry I misunderstand your last post.
Did you give a whirl?
It read like you modded your post.
Anyway, please let me know you success/failure as it goes.  The APIs is very incomplete compared to J3D VecMath, but it's building out as needed and we didn't need anymore other than the invert()s.
I think your tests will be far greater than ours so you guys will hit errors/weaknesses before I.
I will fix ASAP, of course, anyone can now and I'll fold (or you guys can) it back into the "offical" release.  Smiley

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #8 - Posted 2003-09-29 04:36:52 »

my apologies I have translated it into English now Wink

I will give it a test in a few hours when I get home.

It would be a lot better if the package had the same name as the official one (my reasons for this are in the other thread).  Fair enough it's not too hard to change a few import statements with a batch find-replace but i feel even that I should not need to do Smiley

Will.

Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #9 - Posted 2003-09-29 15:41:53 »

No offense, but the package name can NOT be the same.
It's not the same API, or code.
And it's not "javax", that is a "semi" official package division used on many Java APIs.

Anyone else have an view?  I've never heard of releasing an API with the same package name as an existing one from another source...

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline DavidYazel

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #10 - Posted 2003-09-29 15:45:24 »

I would not think it would have the same package name.  If we made this switch it would by ripping sun's vecmath out completely and refactoring for the new library.  It would not matter what the package name was.  Of more importance would be the compatibility on method signatures and its behavior.

David Yazel
Xith3D Project Founder
http://xith3d.dev.java.net

It may look complicated, but in the end it is just a bunch of triangles
Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Member




Speak Java!


« Reply #11 - Posted 2003-09-29 16:17:28 »

Agree with David.

Package name does not really matter.

Yuri

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #12 - Posted 2003-09-29 23:53:32 »

Quote
No offense, but the package name can NOT be the same.
It's not the same API, or code.
And it's not "javax", that is a "semi" official package division used on many Java APIs.

Anyone else have an view?  I've never heard of releasing an API with the same package name as an existing one from another source...


A misunderstanding of the goals of your project, I thought it to be more inline with the other unoffiical vecmath package (http://objectclub.esm.co.jp/vecmath/?) that does retain the javax.vecmath name.  My mistake.  I have replied in full here: http://www.java-gaming.org/cgi-bin/JGNetForums/YaBB.cgi?board=share;action=display;num=1064642997

Fair enough, not too hard to change the Xith3D code, and it will be good to be totally rid of Java3D.  

Would this however add another hurdle for people porting Java3D code to Xith3D?  Would it matter if it did?

Has anyone actually tried using the other javax.vecmath implementation with Xith3D maybe all we will have to do is just replace the Java3D one with that and all our (copyright) problems will be solved?  I shall be testing it myself today.

Cheers,

Will.

Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Member




Speak Java!


« Reply #13 - Posted 2003-09-30 08:17:42 »

I see quite simple scenario of porting from javax.vecmath to another library - if we achieve compatibility on a such level where we just replace imports (package names), this would be perfect.

Afterwards we can tune some points to use improved functionality (what I miss is an pint array transforms [i.e. applying some transform to all the points in the array]).

Yuri

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #14 - Posted 2003-09-30 09:45:40 »

okay, well I guess I got a bit too excited over nothing  Lips Sealed

An enhanced vecmath seems like a good way to go.  Is full backward compatibility to the old vecmath library (eg. the colour types) somthing we need as well?  

One question I would really like to have answered is what can we do about xith_utilities.jar?  I understand that the code is currently David's.  Are there any plans to either open source that library or integrate the nessesary components into Xith3D?  Either way it would be nice to be able to tinker with the code directally and it seems unnessesary that Xith3D would use a closed source library like that one when the rest of the project and it's related libraries are totally open source.

Will

Offline Preston

Senior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #15 - Posted 2003-11-02 11:35:49 »

Are there any news on this very important topic?
Thanks.
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #16 - Posted 2003-11-02 12:02:10 »

xith_utilities.jar has been integrated in the Xith3D core, which solved the license problem.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline Preston

Senior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #17 - Posted 2003-11-02 12:24:36 »

Quote
xith_utilities.jar has been integrated in the Xith3D core, which solved the license problem.

Thanks, that's fine.
However what's with vecmath? I've read here that it's the Java3d's vecmath so ... in case you would like to distribute a game based on Xith3d: would you really have to include the entire Java3d package, too?
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #18 - Posted 2003-11-02 12:26:58 »

I think vecmath.jar is a free implementation of vector math and not actually the Java3D version.

Kev

Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #19 - Posted 2003-11-02 12:39:08 »

AFAIR it's the Java3D version. Shawnkendall said he's working on a vecmath API. There probably exist more free implementations, which could be used.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline abies

Senior Member





« Reply #20 - Posted 2003-11-02 15:46:27 »

I'm currently using Kenji Hiranabe vecmath with few modifications for xith3d. vecmath.jar included by default in xith3d is one used in java3d and it generates not really needed garbage in some of methods. Only problem with Kenji classes is lack of TexCoord4f, but it is trivial to add.

If you are interested, I can prepare corrected version of Kenji classes and post for inclusion into xith3d.

Artur Biesiadowski
Offline Preston

Senior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #21 - Posted 2003-11-02 16:29:20 »

A clean, fast an free version of Vecmath would be very nice.

What's with the "log4j.jar" lib? It's from the apache project and is used by some parts of Xith3d.
If you distribute a game with Xith3d then you also have to point to the Apache lisence?
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #22 - Posted 2003-11-02 23:18:32 »

Xith3D currently uses the J3D vecmath.jar, I belive that Kenji's would be the best replacement.  abies modifications have my +1

All third party libraries will need a copyright attribution and license like for all software and log4j is no different.  Look at the JRE or SDK - there is a file named "THIRDPARTYLICENSEREADME.txt" which lists all third party code Sun uses and the respective licenses.  You can license your code however you like - but you'd have to respect copyright of the libraries too.  Even if it's the case that all your third party libraries and code is the same license eg. BSD - you still need to include seperate licenses as each is copyright by a different author.   It's just like writing an essay - you have to include a bibliography.

 However, I am not a lawyer, that is merely what i have observed others do.

Will.

Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Member




Speak Java!


« Reply #23 - Posted 2003-11-03 16:25:17 »

Would be nice to test Xith3D with Kenji's vecmath, especially if it is package-name-compatible with Sun vecmath.

Quote
If you are interested, I can prepare corrected version of Kenji classes and post for inclusion into xith3d.


+1. Lets test.

Yuri

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
Offline Jens

Senior Member




Java for games!


« Reply #24 - Posted 2003-11-03 16:36:22 »

I vote +1 for testing an alternative vecmath API. I'd like to see a library which is maintained (or at least author can be reached by e-mail), so you can optimize it or add missing functions if necessary. Don't know if that's the case with Kenji's API, but hope so.

Xith3D Getting Started Guide (PDF,HTML,Source)
Offline DavidYazel

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #25 - Posted 2003-11-03 18:20:36 »

+1 here.  Lets give it a whirl.

David Yazel
Xith3D Project Founder
http://xith3d.dev.java.net

It may look complicated, but in the end it is just a bunch of triangles
Offline abies

Senior Member





« Reply #26 - Posted 2003-11-03 19:34:30 »

http://nwn-j3d.sourceforge.net/jogl/vecmath.zip

Compared to Kenji version, I have added explicit row/column major accessors for matrices (but I have left original ones in place), removed one unneeded allocation during matrix multiplication and added TexCoord4f/4d.

If you have anything against row/column accessors, it is trivial to remove them - I'm not particulary attached to them since I have discovered transpose matrix opengl extension Smiley - but they might come useful at some point in future, when interfacing to some math code.


Artur Biesiadowski
Offline Yuri Vl. Gushchin

Senior Member




Speak Java!


« Reply #27 - Posted 2003-11-04 18:25:41 »

I just reviewed and tested Kenji version of vecmath modified by Artur Biesiadowski and only I can say - this is good and compatible with Xith3D engine.

I was able to compile engine and the apps based on it without any problems.

BTW, to make it running with my apps I had to add explicit declarations of serialVersionUID to all the serializable classes [except of GMatrix, GVector (incompatible!) and TexCoord4d] to make it really working. Also one incompatibility is that some objects do not implement Cloneable, and one may encounter Java3D->Xith3D porting problems because of that.

So, my suggestion is to switch at least to this library because of it is open source. And, of course, spend some short time to make it compatible in serialization [99% done] and cloneability [todo].

Yuri

Yuri Vl. Gushchin
JProof Group
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