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  Judging Results  (Read 22214 times)
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Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 5


I always win!


« Posted 2009-04-01 21:31:04 »

Score tables: http://java4k.com/index.php?action=games&method=grades&cid=5
Reviews: http://java4k.com/index.php?action=games&method=reviews&cid=5

Have fun!


Thanks to all the judges for their effort! Remember, the judges did their best given what they were handed. I hope everyone walk away satisfied, although there might be a handful of games that are missing a review from a judge or two due to problems running the games - I do not feel that it affected the outcome. If anyone thinks his game is unfairly treated he can contact me.

Thanks all.


edit: score-table updated at 22:20 GMT+0 to remove 0 score vote from calculations.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Online SimonH
« Reply #1 - Posted 2009-04-01 22:08:47 »

Congrats Markus! (I'll get you next year!  Tongue)

unfairly treated
I thought 4x4k coming 25th was a bit harsh - that was my favourite! Great multiplayer fun (bit tough on the spacebar...)

People make games and games make people
Offline luisoft

JGO Coder


Projects: 6


Java games rock!


« Reply #2 - Posted 2009-04-01 22:16:59 »

I think I was injuried since ChrisM was not able to play my game. I have attached it in the previous thread could you please review and add some score!?!?!  Angry Cry Shocked Having zero in all categories drop me very down in the list for PacPitfall.

Also there were other games that ChisM was not able to play. Since other judges were able to play I think it's not fair with us!!!!!!!

Well I have to defend my game and effort on doing it.  Wink
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #3 - Posted 2009-04-01 22:20:35 »

Thanks, but I really think the order is fine - a lot of people had trouble playing 4x4k due to sensitivity, it's just a bit too hard.

I'm never sure about including zero scores (due to failure to run) into averages makes sense. I don't think it's worth revisiting since the contest has never been really been about the results - but maybe next time use that old remove the lowest score tactic?

Congrats again to everyone that was part of the contest this year. Fantastic quality and loads of fun games to show off (lets port them all onto Android now and make millions! Smiley).

Also a big thanks to the judges that evidently spent ages going through every game and giving thoughtful feedback!

Kev

Offline Jono
« Reply #4 - Posted 2009-04-01 22:24:00 »

Well, I can't say that Frequent Flier was unfairly judged - the reviews follow the rules. It's just a shame that it came last because now noone will try it out, and I think the game has enough merits that it's definitely worth playing at least once (if you have a mic Wink).
Offline userek

Junior Member


Projects: 1



« Reply #5 - Posted 2009-04-01 22:45:26 »

I think that there should be a better way of scoring the game that did not work for one of the judges than giving it 0%. Arithmetic mean of other three reviews would be better i think.
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #6 - Posted 2009-04-01 23:03:31 »

Well, about the zero scored games, what other score could I possibly give them?  Obviously there were issues with launching these since all of the other games launched. I hated to score these three this way, but there was no alternative.  And I am not the only judge who had issues.

I tried running them in Firefox and Safari.  No dice. As for PacPitfall, I was able to play the jar file you posted and it did work, just after the competition ended.  It was a good attempt at the Pitfall gameplay, pits, vines, etc.  Just not very engaging.  78% Overall, 83% Presentation, 75% Technical.  There you go Smiley

I think Kev's suggestion might be acceptable for next year.  Or, judging can be done by splitting the games evenly across multiple judges.

As for people defending their games vs. the scores they may have received, that is expected!  Remember, we are judging based on our personal observations and are just that, our reviews.

Offline steveyO
« Reply #7 - Posted 2009-04-01 23:05:33 »

Thanks appel/judges for all your time and effort.  Really enjoyed my first 4K comp thanks to you guys! Great work!
C u next year 4 more.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bullsquared.alggame Annoying Little Gits (Android)
www.bullsquared.com   Play java (applet) games! www.chessclockpro.com Free Online Chess Clock
Offline pjt33
« Reply #8 - Posted 2009-04-01 23:14:22 »

there might be a handful of games that are missing a review from a judge or two due to problems running the games - I do not feel that it affected the outcome.
?! It probably didn't affect first place, but that's a much weaker statement than not affecting the outcome.

BTW darkfrog, could you say which version of Java you were using?
Offline StephR

Senior Member


Medals: 9



« Reply #9 - Posted 2009-04-01 23:15:01 »

I didn't expect so detailed reviews ! The wait was really worth them and thanks to the judges for their time. The results seem fair and in particular the first place is completely deserved - congratulations to Markus who left everyone but him... dead !  Wink

However I must admit I was a bit disappointed by results concerning some of my favourite games, as for World Rally Driver 4k that I found almost perfect technically and on the gameplay level, as well as 4x4k which was not so hard when you remembered to push [space]... And not to speak of Asteroid Alert! and its impressive Elite-like radar, Q*Bert4K, Jetp4k and Deathchase for their perfect conversion,  Gravitational Fourks for its physics and graphics, and I suppose that J-Type suffered from being Squarius direct sequel...

My final comment will be that next year it would be nice to reconsider the hosting solution for the games, as it seems it caused a few problems in this 2009 contest. See you in 2010 !
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #10 - Posted 2009-04-01 23:18:10 »

Think I forgot.
[size=30pt]THANKS APPEL![/size]

I think past organizers will tell you quite how hard and time consuming it is to do this contest, so really, thanks for doing it!

Kev

Offline userek

Junior Member


Projects: 1



« Reply #11 - Posted 2009-04-01 23:27:29 »

Well, about the zero scored games, what other score could I possibly give them?  Obviously there were issues with launching these since all of the other games launched. I hated to score these three this way, but there was no alternative.  And I am not the only judge who had issues.

Of course for some of the judges some games did not work so they gave it 0% and thats fine, but I think that overall score of the game shoudl not be affected by it Wink.
Its rather a suggestion for a further contests, because i think once the results are officialy published they should not be touched(unless someone cheated or something like that).
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #12 - Posted 2009-04-01 23:35:48 »

Yeah, last time the results started getting fiddled with we ended up in a bickering mess, 2 years ago was it.

It's just good the contest is still running after all these years and that we're still getting fun games to play Smiley

Kev

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 5


I always win!


« Reply #13 - Posted 2009-04-01 23:36:01 »

Hey

I agree that nothing is ever perfect  Grin But as long as we try to achieve perfection, then time is on our side.

Hopefully we'll be able to use what we've learned from this year (huge number of games, better formulated rules for judges) and apply it to the judging process next year. So, next year we might have a different type of a judging process, better, faster.

For games receiving zero score in all categories from one judge, then I recommend reading what the other judges had to say. Perhaps a feature is missing from the judging process so a judge can "pass" on a game, and then his zero score won't count.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 5


I always win!


« Reply #14 - Posted 2009-04-01 23:40:22 »

Yeah, last time the results started getting fiddled with we ended up in a bickering mess, 2 years ago was it.

I want to avoid fiddling with the results. It's never possible to please everyone, I'm sure there are games there that ARE better than the score indicates, and are lower in score order than lesser games, but that's life Smiley At some point we'll have a user feedback/score on all these games so the community can decide on it's own, until then we'll have to use this imperfect judging review process, which although does give all games equal fair shake.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline luisoft

JGO Coder


Projects: 6


Java games rock!


« Reply #15 - Posted 2009-04-01 23:43:35 »

ok that's fine. This contest is really really great! Also write down the suggestion of public vote! We could spread the competition doing it! Thanks appel and the judges!
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 51
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #16 - Posted 2009-04-01 23:53:30 »

Can I make a suggestion that for next year the handling of "can't run" games be changed? I'm a bit miffed that I tested on a whole bunch of machines and never had anyone who had a problem. It would have been nice to have been contacted and informed of the problem rather than getting a (very score damaging) 0/0/0.  Undecided

Score aside, I'd still like to fix whatever issue darkfrog had so no-one else bumps into it in the future, platform and VM version would go a long way.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline StephR

Senior Member


Medals: 9



« Reply #17 - Posted 2009-04-01 23:59:15 »

I have finished to read all reviews, and I agree with userek : the game score should not have been affected by the impossibility for a judge to launch it. Now I wouldn't be shocked if the classments were recalculated without counting the 0%... However reviews are of course more important than scores, and even if a recalculation was made I suppose the top 3 in every classment wouldn't be affected. Beside this problem, the organization of the contest was very good and certainly represented a huge work, so please don't take any offense from this very final comment !
Offline Morre

JGO Knight


Medals: 2
Projects: 10


I'm Dragonene on IRC.


« Reply #18 - Posted 2009-04-02 00:02:41 »

Score tables: http://java4k.com/index.php?action=games&method=grades&cid=5
Reviews: http://java4k.com/index.php?action=games&method=reviews&cid=5

I do not feel that it affected the outcome. If anyone thinks his game is unfairly treated he can contact me.

Thanks all.

I very much think you should've notified the community about this issue before posting the scores and asked for their opinion. Also, we've seen the 0-score "couldn't run" issue several times before, and solutions to the problem were posted every time (including median, or an average of the middle three scores, or counting these scores as dash (-), not affecting the scores). I also think you could've contacted these authors to give them a chance to fix the problem.

Two of my games wouldn't run on darkfrog's machine (with vista64). I think this is at least as likely to be an issue related to the JVM or obfuscator as my code. Either of the solutions above *or* having a standard platform for the judges to test on would've solved this issue.

In this case, the result lowered the average score for these two games (Bridge4k and Pixeloids4k) from around 90% (or slightly above) to around 75%, in effect moving them about 30 places down in the score list. And I'm not the only one with this problem.

Frankly, I'm astonished this wasn't fixed beforehand because we've seen this issue before.

With that said, I appreciate all the work of both organizers and judges. But I do think this particular issue could've been solved in a hundred different ways that would've caused way less bitterness and given us a more fair scoring system.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, could you post a list of the scores as they would've been with 0% ("couldn't run") scores not counted? I'd like to see it, at least...

Offline Hsaka
« Reply #19 - Posted 2009-04-02 00:09:31 »

Thanks appel, ChrisM, darkfrog, demonpants and Mark for the detailed reviews.

Looking forward for next year's 4K contest  Smiley
Offline pjt33
« Reply #20 - Posted 2009-04-02 00:11:38 »

EDIT: Out of curiosity, could you post a list of the scores as they would've been with 0% ("couldn't run") scores not counted? I'd like to see it, at least...
I'm working on this, along with a lot of other statistical analysis. It's interesting to note that appel has the largest variance in scores in all categories.
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 5


I always win!


« Reply #21 - Posted 2009-04-02 00:14:20 »

I very much think you should've notified the community about this issue before posting the scores and asked for their opinion. Also, we've seen the 0-score "couldn't run" issue several times before, and solutions to the problem were posted every time (including median, or an average of the middle three scores, or counting these scores as dash (-), not affecting the scores). I also think you could've contacted these authors to give them a chance to fix the problem.

Two of my games wouldn't run on darkfrog's machine (with vista64). I think this is at least as likely to be an issue related to the JVM or obfuscator as my code. Either of the solutions above *or* having a standard platform for the judges to test on would've solved this issue.

In this case, the result lowered the average score for these two games (Bridge4k and Pixeloids4k) from around 90% (or slightly above) to around 75%, in effect moving them about 30 places down in the score list. And I'm not the only one with this problem.

Frankly, I'm astonished this wasn't fixed beforehand because we've seen this issue before.

I admit this is a problem. The reviews got finished so late that there was little time for afterthoughts.

I am now pondering with the idea of skipping these zero scores, and only averaging the score that is above zero. This WILL affect the order of the games, even in the top 10 and even in the top 3, although the #1st place is firmly held by Left 4k dead.

I can easily correct this, and in fact have the code ready for it, but I need "go ahead" from you guys.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #22 - Posted 2009-04-02 00:17:09 »

Just do it (TM).

However you should probably also put up the following variants:

- Remove all the highest scores for each entry
- Remove all the lowest scores for each entry
- Remove all both the highest and the lowest for each entry
- Remove a particular judge's results for each entry
- Make all the scores for every game but the one selected zero (ok, maybe not this one Wink).

It'd hardly be fair to judge some entries on 4 judge's results and some on 5 given the disparity in the judges ranges of scores and approach to judging.

This could go on and on and on...

[size=5pt]One could also argue that it's a coding contest and failing with an NPE is a failure to code to some API or framework given how many other games managed to run on the same setup.
[/size]
Kev

Offline StephR

Senior Member


Medals: 9



« Reply #23 - Posted 2009-04-02 00:23:23 »

Without any hesitation, go ahead, appel ! Skipping these zero scores would be fairer for everyone.

And too bad for me if my own game looses thirty places !  Shocked  ( humor of course... )
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 5


I always win!


« Reply #24 - Posted 2009-04-02 00:28:08 »

Morre helped me realize this problem, and I've taken the steps to correct it.

The score chart has now been corrected!


This is entirely my fault, so anyone who now sees his game drop a few spots can only blame me. But in the end, I think this is more fair for a whole lot people.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline Morre

JGO Knight


Medals: 2
Projects: 10


I'm Dragonene on IRC.


« Reply #25 - Posted 2009-04-02 00:28:59 »

I would certainly appreciate it, appel. Let's see what the rest of the community thinks. Perhaps a poll?

EDIT:

I see you just changed it. Thanks a bunch!

Please, just keep in mind that I want the community to have a say in this! If they preferred the old version, I will accept it (although I don't have to like it!). I don't want to be the one ruining the contest for somebody. Smiley

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 5


I always win!


« Reply #26 - Posted 2009-04-02 00:33:39 »

I would certainly appreciate it, appel. Let's see what the rest of the community thinks. Perhaps a poll?

EDIT: I see you just changed it. Thanks a bunch! Please, just keep in mind that I want the community to have a say in this! If they preferred the old version, I will accept it (although I don't have to like it!).

No, this was clearly an error, which has now been corrected.

An error doesn't become an mistake until you refuse to correct it, and I don't want to make this into a mistake.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline Morre

JGO Knight


Medals: 2
Projects: 10


I'm Dragonene on IRC.


« Reply #27 - Posted 2009-04-02 00:37:05 »

Oh, I forgot:

[size=14pt]Congratulations, Markus![/size]

Left 4k Dead was a very worthy winner, and one of the best 4k games to date. Well done!


EDIT:
Also, I would again like to thank all the judges and the organizers for amazing work! I've had a lot of fun this year (as always!) Smiley

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 5


I always win!


« Reply #28 - Posted 2009-04-02 00:40:16 »

I almost forgot also:

Congratulations to the WINNERS and all the game developers! Hopefully you'll participate again next year Wink

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 12
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #29 - Posted 2009-04-02 00:49:30 »

Omg, yay! =D
I'm SO spending all day tomorrow bragging.

I love the reviews, they're very detailed and shows that the judges actually care about the games they're judging. Thanks for putting in the effort, and a BIG thanks to appel.


So what am I supposed to do until Java4k 2010? Undecided

Play Minecraft!
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