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  Flash 4K  (Read 9548 times)
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Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 50
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Posted 2009-03-23 17:35:28 »

It's fun to see a parallel competition in Flash.

Although I believe our games are much better and the contest overall more matured Smiley

http://www.gamepoetry.com/blog/4k_flash_march_09/

Kongregate discussion: http://www.kongregate.com/forums/4/topics/35583

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline h3ckboy

JGO Coder


Medals: 5



« Reply #1 - Posted 2009-03-23 20:11:50 »

their games are nice.

but flash cannot compare to java Smiley(I mean in quality not production spee)
they need to play ice fighters for instance lol
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 50
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #2 - Posted 2009-03-23 22:11:35 »

At least this has convinced me to have the next Java4K entirely Applet based.

And by that I mean embedded on Java4k.com, like how it should be! Smiley

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline irreversible_kev

Junior Member





« Reply #3 - Posted 2009-03-23 22:15:30 »

At least this has convinced me to have the next Java4K entirely Applet based.

Nice. I want to see more applets from everyone, especially Sun (or whoever buys Sun).
Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #4 - Posted 2009-03-23 22:39:02 »

Weaksauce. Nice that Java can show Flash a thing or two.

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline EnderGT

Junior Member





« Reply #5 - Posted 2009-03-24 02:40:38 »

At least this has convinced me to have the next Java4K entirely Applet based.

And by that I mean embedded on Java4k.com, like how it should be! Smiley
I don't think my poker server would have been possible as an applet? While I probably won't try the poker server thing again, I think the competition should be left open to ANY type of game that can fit into 4k.
Offline Morre

JGO Knight


Medals: 2
Projects: 10


I'm Dragonene on IRC.


« Reply #6 - Posted 2009-03-24 02:51:34 »

EnderGT:
Why wouldn't it? Applets and webstart support more or less the same stuff. Even the parameter input you used for switching modes is supported... but you shouldn't do that anyway, in my opinion. Even if the parameter size + JAR file is less than 4096 kb, it breaks the idea that "everything should be contained in the JAR file". A JOptionPane dialog is really not very expensive, and can produce pretty much the same result in one line.

Regarding the flash compo:
I tried the top two games. While perhaps not immensely technically impressive, I did like the innovation effort in the winning entry. And given flash's ease of distribution, I think we may have a serious competitor here, at least in the future. Don't dismiss this too lightly.

Me, personally, I wouldn't mind joining both competitions... Smiley

Offline zammbi

JGO Coder


Medals: 4



« Reply #7 - Posted 2009-03-24 02:56:28 »

Yes a competition between Java and flash would be cool.

Current project - Rename and Sort
Offline EnderGT

Junior Member





« Reply #8 - Posted 2009-03-24 03:06:11 »

EnderGT:
Why wouldn't it? Applets and webstart support more or less the same stuff. Even the parameter input you used for switching modes is supported...
Could the server run as an applet and accept connections from other clients? Don't the security restrictions for applets prevent them from connecting to anything other than the web server from which they were launched? Maybe not, I'm obviously not very experienced with applets.

but you shouldn't do that anyway, in my opinion. Even if the parameter size + JAR file is less than 4096 kb, it breaks the idea that "everything should be contained in the JAR file". A JOptionPane dialog is really not very expensive, and can produce pretty much the same result in one line.
Well, if you notice my game didn't get officially submitted, so the command line point is moot. I personally think my reasons for doing it the command line way are valid and don't take away from the accomplishment of getting the game into 4k. And since I did it for myself - the contest would have been a side benefit - then I can be happy with it the way it is Smiley  I did try to retrofit the JOptionPane prompt into the game, but I was never able to get it back under 4k  Undecided   But that's another issue Smiley

I've never done flash development. Is there a free development environment or anything?
Offline CyanPrime
« Reply #9 - Posted 2009-03-24 03:07:28 »

At least this has convinced me to have the next Java4K entirely Applet based.

And by that I mean embedded on Java4k.com, like how it should be! Smiley
Screw that. Java Webstart is light-years better than crapplets.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline SquashMonster

Senior Member


Medals: 1
Projects: 2



« Reply #10 - Posted 2009-03-24 03:59:17 »

I've not done applet development in years.  I remember it being a real pain in the butt, but maybe they've gotten better.  Or maybe the pain in the butt part was not being able to use timers properly or something else we can't afford in Java4k anyway, heh.

Applets or no, I think having everything hosted on the Java4k website is the right way to go.
Offline Morre

JGO Knight


Medals: 2
Projects: 10


I'm Dragonene on IRC.


« Reply #11 - Posted 2009-03-24 04:20:16 »

More importantly... applets are typically smaller than applications! Smiley
So you'd want to dev in applet form even if you do launch in webstart. :>

EnderGT:
Well, I know that we got Multitris to work in applet form. Not for everybody, but that's because we use LWJGL, not because of the network code (AFAIK).

Also, you're right. If you didn't submit the game the point is sort of moot. But I do think it's an important thing to have clarified for the next time, so there's no further confusion - whether it's allowed or not.

And given that applets are usually smaller, perhaps turning it into an applet would have saved you the bytes you needed for JOptionPane... Smiley

Regarding free development tools for flash: Yeah, you can download the free Flex SDK from Adobe, and do development in for example FlashDevelop (which is an IDE). I just got started doing some flash stuff - AS3 is kind of like Java, only with a nonexistant collections API and some odd quirks. :>

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 50
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #12 - Posted 2009-03-24 09:46:13 »

Screw that. Java Webstart is light-years better than crapplets.

Some of the best games this year are Applets, and I've not seen Applets limiting the games in any way.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 75
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #13 - Posted 2009-03-24 11:37:06 »

Screw that. Java Webstart is light-years better than crapplets.

With Java Plugin 2 its no longer the case, the new applets are as good as jws in most cases and in some cases even better.
Offline CyanPrime
« Reply #14 - Posted 2009-03-24 20:01:41 »

With Java Plugin 2 its no longer the case, the new applets are as good as jws in most cases and in some cases even better.
Need examples. Why are they better? A nice detailed blogpost would be great.
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 757
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #15 - Posted 2009-03-24 20:28:27 »

When you don't have a JRE installed, you get a nice yellow-bar in your browser that installs Java, and you don't even have to refresh the page to make the applet work.

With Java Webstart, you get some XML thrown at your face, and no hint whatsoever to make it work. Besides that, it refuses to start ever so often, and a retry normally takes care of it... boo.

That's the better user expererience for applets.


Oh, no blogpost. Sorry.

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Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline CyanPrime
« Reply #16 - Posted 2009-03-24 20:36:52 »

Quote
Applets are usually slow, horrible, inappropriate in a browser, can't be printed, make everything else feel slow... I just hate when I go somewhere and an applet starts loading. Applets are a big failure and are fortunately dying slowly.

Web Start is nice for applications that are made to be desktop applications and solves the deployment issue (centralized deployment). Applications are downloaded to be executed in a JVM outside the browser. They can be linked to the desktop, started offline... Last but not least, you choose to use a Web Start application or not.

Applets : 0 - Web Start : 1

EDIT: I made the first sentence a little bit less generic. There are successful implementation of applets, no doubts about it. I just have a negative global perception because I've seen more wrong applets or usages than good ones.


http://stackoverflow.com/questions/645464/which-do-you-prefer-java-web-start-or-java-applets
Offline Morre

JGO Knight


Medals: 2
Projects: 10


I'm Dragonene on IRC.


« Reply #17 - Posted 2009-03-25 03:15:56 »

I'd say that view is probably based on the old applet plugin. Smiley

Offline SimonH
« Reply #18 - Posted 2009-03-25 05:04:51 »

Need examples. Why are they better?
Applets aren't perfect but they are a lot more accessible than webstart apps, so better from a user perspective?
Have you had some bad experiences with applets?

People make games and games make people
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 75
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #19 - Posted 2009-03-25 07:56:20 »

Need examples. Why are they better? A nice detailed blogpost would be great.

1) They are Embedded, which in turn leads to a much smoother and better user experience, the applet simply runs in the same window, instead of the user having to click a link and waiting for a java web start box to load before the application starts.

2) Many people are still unfamiliar with jws and are more familiar with applets.

3) They allow communication with the web page they are on through live connect, you can perform many useful tasks that simply wouldn't be possible with jws.

4) Having access to Javascript is a major plus, since all the Power, API's for different services, databases for javascript are available to applets.

5) They can double as java web start applications without any code change, simple create a jnlp.

6) They can be dragged out from the web page to become an application like java web start.

7) JWS has to get extra permission from some firewalls to run which further makes the user experience worse.

8 ) JWS installs entries of applications on your computer, this is not usually what users usually expect of web applications.

9) the extra dialogs that users need to accept or view to run a jws application needs can be avoided in applets, so your application starts faster and more smoothly.

10) Better Legacy Support, Applets have been with Java since its early days, so are more likely to be available and work on old machines than java web start. JWS was only introduced with Java 1.4

11) applets don't have any server requirements, while jnlp files need the mime type to be correctly registered otherwise they won't work, this usually limits where they can be used as many free hosts don't support jnlp.

While there are disadvantages of using applets too, most of the complaints I see usually refer to applets with the old java plugin, the new java plugin 2 has fixed the most common issues people had with applets, these being start-up time, random crashes/lock-ups, Gray window while jars download and no ability to run applet as a separate process. This now leads to a much smoother user experience much like flash.

It would be interesting to hear why you think JWS is better or what issues you have with applets.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 123
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #20 - Posted 2009-03-25 10:01:02 »

I like Applets better than Webstart these days, mostly because of Plugin2. However, to give some contrast:

Quote
1) They are Embedded, which in turn leads to a much smoother and better user experience, the applet simply runs in the same window, instead of the user having to click a link and waiting for a java web start box to load before the application starts.

True if they have Plugin2, which requires 1.6 (update 10?). The majority of people still have 1.5 (since thats what vendors like Dell are shipping on their bog standard boxes). If you don't have Plugin2 your applet is going to hang the browser for VM start up time, the applet may or may not start cleanly, and you're going to spend a lot of time with bugs that come down to browser caches.

Quote
2) Many people are still unfamiliar with jws and are more familiar with applets.

Most people are used to however downloading an exe and running it. Not that bigger leap from webstart. Most people are familiar with applets - but not in a good way. They're associated with browser hangs and failures.

Quote
3) They allow communication with the web page they are on through live connect, you can perform many useful tasks that simply wouldn't be possible with jws.

Quote
4) Having access to Javascript is a major plus, since all the Power, API's for different services, databases for javascript are available to applets.

Agreed. There's a lot of equivilents in the Java world but alot require signing still.

Quote
5) They can double as java web start applications without any code change, simple create a jnlp.

But why would you do that if Java WebStart is so bad and you have the option of embedding so cleanly in a web page?

Quote
6) They can be dragged out from the web page to become an application like java web start.
... if you have plugin2.

Quote
7) JWS has to get extra permission from some firewalls to run which further makes the user experience worse.
Never seen this or heard of it. Only reason I could think is if you're hosting the JNLP on a non-port 80 webserver. If thats the case the applet hosted there will have the same issue.

Quote
8 ) JWS installs entries of applications on your computer, this is not usually what users usually expect of web applications.

Agreed. However, some people see that as a good thing, i.e. offline running works without a hitch.

Quote
9) the extra dialogs that users need to accept or view to run a jws application needs can be avoided in applets, so your application starts faster and more smoothly.

Agreed.

Quote
10) Better Legacy Support, Applets have been with Java since its early days, so are more likely to be available and work on old machines than java web start. JWS was only introduced with Java 1.4

Thats not really true. If they have an old version of Java (<1.4) then Applets will look and behave very badly. You'll have to do a bunch of extra work to get them to work well. Given the high penetration of 1.4 now this isn't really a good argument.

Quote
11) applets don't have any server requirements, while jnlp files need the mime type to be correctly registered otherwise they won't work, this usually limits where they can be used as many free hosts don't support jnlp.

Also a bit weak. If you're serious about games development using free hosting that is so limited it doesn't support JNLP (or allow configuration of that support) is a bit of a bad idea. Especially, given there are plenty of free hosting solutions that do support JNLP.

Applets are bad in certain cases because:

1) Behavior is undefined. You might get the sub1.4 applet stuff which is awful, the 1.4->1.6 stuff which is bad at startup but runs ok, or the 1.6+ Plugin2 which is just the dogs balls (a good thing in the UK Wink). This means at best you're writing for two platforms at the moment (assuming you're willing to lose pre 1.4 players).

2) For good user experience (comparable with Flash) Plugin2 is required or a bunch of additional work is required (could someone standardise these scripts and make it possible for everyone to use?). Plugin2 isn't everywhere - or infact very many places yet.

3) Browser caches are still causing problems. In my current Applet project I've reverted to putting version identifer on my JARs to ensure they don't get cached somewhere along the way.

4) Using natives in Applets still looks odd. That security dialog looks way more bizarre to someone who is expecting the embedded applet to work like flash than it does to someone that already has been primed that some different is happening (Java Splash Screen, Webstart....)

Don't get me wrong, I am infact using applets for my current project. I like the way they feel and I see a bright future. However, I don't think it's just as clean cut as you're trying to make it sound. They have plenty of issues in certain use cases just the same way Java Webstart does.

Quote
I'd say that view is probably based on the old applet plugin.

Which is of course what the majority of people still have.

Kev

Offline pjt33
« Reply #21 - Posted 2009-03-25 10:46:36 »

True if they have Plugin2, which requires 1.6 (update 10?). The majority of people still have 1.5 (since thats what vendors like Dell are shipping on their bog standard boxes). If you don't have Plugin2 your applet is going to hang the browser for VM start up time, the applet may or may not start cleanly, and you're going to spend a lot of time with bugs that come down to browser caches.
I have 1.6u10 and it still hangs the browser while it's loading.

Isn't this thread now duplicating most of the discussion in the "Applets only?" thread? That one seems a much more logical place for it...
Offline soothsayer

Senior Newbie


Projects: 1



« Reply #22 - Posted 2009-06-02 11:22:51 »

I have created my first Flash game, and I think it is better than the Java version. I mean it is much simpler for me to develop the game.

Look at this:

http://cppanddelphi.atw.hu/asteroids/game.htm

My problem was the compression with Java games. I only could use ProGuard, nothing else. The swf files are compressed automaticaly, so it was a big relief. I could use more classes as well and the source code is legible too.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #23 - Posted 2009-06-03 11:55:42 »

Screw that. Java Webstart is light-years better than crapplets.
I partly agree with you. Maybe my question is stupid... is it possible to have a full-screen window when using applets? I don't like games inside the browser, I find it less "real".

Offline zammbi

JGO Coder


Medals: 4



« Reply #24 - Posted 2009-06-03 12:34:34 »

I partly agree with you. Maybe my question is stupid... is it possible to have a full-screen window when using applets? I don't like games inside the browser, I find it less "real".
Yep.
I believe you need to sign it, or you can fake it.

Current project - Rename and Sort
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 757
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #25 - Posted 2009-06-03 13:32:59 »

See:
http://www.indiespot.net/files/vista_login_applet.html

No signing, no native fullscreen though.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline trembovetski

Senior Member




If only I knew what I'm talking about!


« Reply #26 - Posted 2009-06-04 09:02:45 »

I partly agree with you. Maybe my question is stupid... is it possible to have a full-screen window when using applets? I don't like games inside the browser, I find it less "real".

You can do full screen for unsigned JavaFX apps (since 1.2), but only when running on 6u10+ .

Dmitri
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