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  Community Space Trader spec  (Read 26276 times)
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Offline kevglass

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« Reply #60 - Posted 2009-01-24 12:22:54 »

Fair enough, I was thinking of the wiki as the condenced version of the countless twists and turns that forum posts take - the place where the final decision ends up.

Doesn't matter to me though, just a thought.

Kev

Offline t_larkworthy

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« Reply #61 - Posted 2009-01-24 15:37:55 »

Regardless of the protocol (Wiki Vs. Forum), we have a number of good idea's discussed for theme, but we need to pick one and let a volunteer take it to the next level. So I think a vote is best for that but we need to make sure that for each vote option there is someone backing it.

So people with thematic ideas just say whether you want that option in a vote (or state a new idea)  and indicate your willingness to take on the role of creative management. Err there should be no problem with people putting forward multiple ideas. Or two people supporting the same idea

I think roughly a thematic idea is: the historical context, the role of the player (if important), end game (if present) and the style of gfx (e.g. ShannonSmith's deconstruction). Err but post what you want really. 

Runesketch: an Online CCG built on Google App Engine where players draw their cards and trade. Fight, draw or trade yourself to success.
Offline bobjob

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« Reply #62 - Posted 2009-01-24 20:42:48 »

So have you decided on a specific renderer yet, or is it going to be possible to have multiple types?

As the "RTS" will hopefully be sharing resources (models, sounds...) with the "Space trade" and if there isnt anyone else commited to the hardware rendering side of things, I wouldnt mind doing it (lwjgl). The models should be optimised for openGL anyway, due to use in the RTS.

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Offline moogie

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« Reply #63 - Posted 2009-01-24 23:30:00 »

Ultimately i do not mind what the "theme" is as long as we are able to engage the services of an excellent story/script writer. IMO a good story allows for the suspension of disbelief so that our polygonal universe is much better received by the player.

Also some voice acting would be nice Smiley but I guess we can rope in some friends/ acquaintances for that.
Offline SimonH
« Reply #64 - Posted 2009-01-25 01:38:41 »

Ultimately i do not mind what the "theme" is as long as we are able to engage the services of an excellent story/script writer. IMO a good story allows for the suspension of disbelief so that our polygonal universe is much better received by the player.

This is important - if we assume that all sensible people will click 'no' to all 'do you want your dad's machine trashed?' security dialogs, then JOGL or LWJGL are both out (dammit!) so we have to go software rendered.
Story isn't enough (Elite didn't really have one) it's 'feel', or gameplay.
We need something where a casual gamer can turn up, not have to register or make awkward security decisions, but they can have FUN for a few minutes, then we've got them! They'll come back and then yes, we'll need a story, but IMHO look and gameplay are our biggest considerations ATM.

I think we need a simple software-rendered framework which can support the 'Ooo! I can fly and shoot!' first few minutes, but which can also support the fuller backstories we create.

Q: Who here is prepared to code that framework? Names below please!
 

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Offline bobjob

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« Reply #65 - Posted 2009-01-25 07:02:28 »

I think we need a simple software-rendered framework which can support the 'Ooo! I can fly and shoot!' first few minutes, but which can also support the fuller backstories we create.
fair enough, but the first purpose of the community project, was to impress people to what java can do. IMHO Standing back and looking at what I think is the most impressive java game iv seen (not relating to what I can program), It would have to be trible trouble. and thats not software rendered.

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Offline t_larkworthy

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« Reply #66 - Posted 2009-01-25 15:40:17 »

Quote
So have you decided on a specific renderer yet,
Yes I believe we have. JPCT for the reasons above. You get both easy applet deployment and the option of openGL for free. Models in 3DS format is the assumption I am running with.

Quote
Q: Who here is prepared to code that framework? Names below please!

Yeah I'll be player in that team (Collision detection & dynamics).


Runesketch: an Online CCG built on Google App Engine where players draw their cards and trade. Fight, draw or trade yourself to success.
Offline dishmoth
« Reply #67 - Posted 2009-01-27 08:32:06 »

Quote
Q: Who here is prepared to code that framework? Names below please!
Yeah I'll be player in that team (Collision detection & dynamics).

In principle I'm up for it.  But I don't have enough of a feel for what the project really is and where it's going to dive in yet.
Simon

Offline t_larkworthy

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« Reply #68 - Posted 2009-01-27 12:46:26 »

So thats 2.5 coders. 0 committed writers so far....
Don't be shy! Kiss

Runesketch: an Online CCG built on Google App Engine where players draw their cards and trade. Fight, draw or trade yourself to success.
Offline moogie

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« Reply #69 - Posted 2009-01-27 21:18:10 »

Well, i would like to develop a alternative candidate solution for the render using ray tracing. I might start by rendering the same scene as the JPCT test scene.

I will see whether a friend is willing to develop a story/universe. However in order for him to do that some guidelines would be needed. So what shall i give him... or shall i tell him to give us different types of stories/universes?
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Offline jonorsi

Senior Newbie





« Reply #70 - Posted 2009-01-27 21:18:57 »

What exactly is required of the 'writer'? I'm working on my major in English/Philosophy here at University of Toronto in Canada. Maybe I could be of some use to you guys Smiley
Offline SimonH
« Reply #71 - Posted 2009-01-27 21:34:29 »

Well, i would like to develop a alternative candidate solution for the render using ray tracing. I might start by rendering the same scene as the JPCT test scene.
Cool! Look forward to seeing something!

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Offline dishmoth
« Reply #72 - Posted 2009-02-08 21:34:36 »

Since there's not been much discussion regarding actual gameplay (controls, etc.), I thought I'd put together a rough prototype to get the ball rolling.  (Source, uses JOGL, not very efficient.)  Everything is controlled using the mouse (plus left button) to try and make it casual-friendly.

To be clear, this isn't intended as a source submission, just a way of presenting some ideas.  So shout out about how you feel the Community Project should differ from this prototype.

Simon

Offline t_larkworthy

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« Reply #73 - Posted 2009-02-09 00:22:49 »

Yeah good stuff dishmoth.

I think that we agreed that combat was a top priority. My personal opinion is that mouse control is rubbish for decent arcadey combat. So I would suggest keyboard controls. As keyboard only has 2 natural axis, might I also suggest we constrain ship movement to be up/down and rotate clockwise/counterclockwise like elite. Oh yeah and thrust... maybe we constrain that to just on off to make things simple to the user?

Tom



Runesketch: an Online CCG built on Google App Engine where players draw their cards and trade. Fight, draw or trade yourself to success.
Offline moogie

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« Reply #74 - Posted 2009-02-09 01:54:10 »

Smiley i disagree I pefer the mouse ship-control/aiming system used in freelancer. It was intuitive and controllable.

It is quite easy to have two different control mechanisms so we can probably have both.
Offline t_larkworthy

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« Reply #75 - Posted 2009-02-09 11:11:46 »

Yeah after a nights sleep I think that mouse control is good actually. But not click to turn the ship. The ship should just turn automatically when the mouse moves like a FPS. I prefer rotating around the Z rather than rotating around the Y like elite still.

I think perhaps the left hand can be used for thrusters forward/backward (W/S) and strafe (A/D). Not many games have strafe but I think it will make combat with small ships more interesting.


Runesketch: an Online CCG built on Google App Engine where players draw their cards and trade. Fight, draw or trade yourself to success.
Offline SimonH
« Reply #76 - Posted 2009-02-09 20:19:46 »

Yeah after a nights sleep I think that mouse control is good actually. But not click to turn the ship. The ship should just turn automatically when the mouse moves like a FPS. I prefer rotating around the Z rather than rotating around the Y like elite still.

I think perhaps the left hand can be used for thrusters forward/backward (W/S) and strafe (A/D). Not many games have strafe but I think it will make combat with small ships more interesting.

'Free mouselook' is very hard to get right in a browser (at least I've never seen it done properly!). I reluctantly had to go with 'click mouselook' for Bloodridge &c.

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Offline t_larkworthy

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« Reply #77 - Posted 2009-02-09 21:24:26 »

Quote
Free mouselook' is very hard to get right in a browser
I did wonder.

Well then I am in favor of keyboard for rotation and thrusting. You can't do decent combat otherwise in my opinion. Mouse can be (usefully) used for targeting. In some ways I imagine that might be better anyway for when the player is in a turret he can still drive the ship.

Do you have any opinions on this SimonH?

PS can you not set the cursor position from an applet then?


Runesketch: an Online CCG built on Google App Engine where players draw their cards and trade. Fight, draw or trade yourself to success.
Offline SimonH
« Reply #78 - Posted 2009-02-09 21:34:31 »

I did wonder.

Well then I am in favor of keyboard for rotation and thrusting. You can't do decent combat otherwise in my opinion. Mouse can be (usefully) used for targeting. In some ways I imagine that might be better anyway for when the player is in a turret he can still drive the ship.

Do you have any opinions on this SimonH?

PS can you not set the cursor position from an applet then?
You can only grab the cursor in a signed applet.  Undecided

It should be simple enough to have both keyboard and/or mouse controls so the player can suit themselves?

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Offline t_larkworthy

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« Reply #79 - Posted 2009-02-09 22:11:12 »

Quote
It should be simple enough to have both keyboard and/or mouse controls so the player can suit themselves?


Thats not an opinion. Its also not casual gamer friendly.

Is combat dynamics a priority? Non-free mouse look is fine for slow paced stuff like space trading. I can't see it working for fighting though.




Runesketch: an Online CCG built on Google App Engine where players draw their cards and trade. Fight, draw or trade yourself to success.
Offline moogie

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« Reply #80 - Posted 2009-02-10 02:00:09 »

Just wondering how a trading sim can be casual friendly without sacrificing on immersion/story

A casual game must grab the interest and allow the player to "get" the game almost instantly. I am not sure a trading sim can achieve this.
Offline SimonH
« Reply #81 - Posted 2009-02-10 02:29:32 »

Thats not an opinion. Its also not casual gamer friendly.
K, let's nail this down: Play begins in a space station with customise/map/launch buttons &c. They click the big 'launch' button and go into space - when do we say to them: switch to keyboard now?

I don't think there's such a gap between immersion & casual play - you can tell it's a good game because you get immersed! Like Runescape, you start (mouse controlled, mark you!) thinking 'This is a bit silly' but before you know it you've wasted hours on daft missions!

People make games and games make people
Offline dishmoth
« Reply #82 - Posted 2009-02-10 09:52:17 »

K, let's nail this down: Play begins in a space station with customise/map/launch buttons &c. They click the big 'launch' button and go into space - when do we say to them: switch to keyboard now?
As I was suggesting before, a quick&dirty prototype might be a way to getting everyone thinking in the same direction.  (Someone else's turn to write it this time. Tongue)
Simon

Offline bobjob

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« Reply #83 - Posted 2009-02-10 10:49:31 »

K, let's nail this down: Play begins in a space station with customise/map/launch buttons &c. They click the big 'launch' button and go into space - when do we say to them: switch to keyboard now?

I don't think there's such a gap between immersion & casual play - you can tell it's a good game because you get immersed! Like Runescape, you start (mouse controlled, mark you!) thinking 'This is a bit silly' but before you know it you've wasted hours on daft missions!

in space there is no friction so why not have, 0 - 9 as intial thruster speed (like mechwarrior2)
backspace to use stablisers(stop)
mouseclick and rotate to change players angle (still thruster controlled),

normal mouse clicks, for hud controls, menu options and such.
like if your chilling flying through space, you get a message from a distant planet for help, "accept mission"
this would need to be clicked on like a normal GUI.

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Offline t_larkworthy

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« Reply #84 - Posted 2009-02-10 13:14:00 »

Mouse click thrusting is fine for a space trader game. But it all ends up a bit generic. The best idea I think I have had for this game was special moves for combat. But that implies decent combat which I don't think you can do via ultima underworld controls. I think maybe the best comprimise would be to permit mouse click turning at the perifery of the UI, but also have the keyboard shortcuts for turning at ADWS FPS on the lefthand. That not saying let the user configure his controls on startup which is what I meant by non-casual friendly (its the configuring part, not the actual controls I was objecting too).

The means the mouse can still be used for targeting and other UI tasks on the HUD, and the space trading fan can control the whole ship from the mouse, but the combat maniac will have familiar FPS controls.

Possibly... left click I would of thought meant shoot, but if its used for thruster or select target or click buttonl then what? Maybe if a click on the crosshairs means shoot, and the keyboard player has space bar or something?

Thrust 1-9 is classic elite. I was actions could be bound to those keys though but probably there won't be enough actions to warrant that. Mouse players could have scroll wheel as well? Does everyone have a scroll wheel now?

Tom
 

Runesketch: an Online CCG built on Google App Engine where players draw their cards and trade. Fight, draw or trade yourself to success.
Offline SimonH
« Reply #85 - Posted 2009-02-10 15:29:29 »

Yeah, thinking this through maybe that would be a good system.
Something like;

Left hand;
1-9 or +/- for accel/decel
WASD for pitch/roll (QE for yaw?)

Right hand either:
Mouse to aim, click to fire/interact
or
arrows for pitch/roll (END/PGDWN yaw?)
CTRL or space to fire

This should cover both newbs and pros? (A newb can play right handed DOOM-style, pro can play WASD+mouse FPS-style)

Does everyone have a scroll wheel now?
Many mac mice only have one button. Sad

People make games and games make people
Offline MickeyB

Senior Duke




my game will work, my game will work!


« Reply #86 - Posted 2009-03-04 18:24:33 »

Wow, you guys are rockin'

Anyway, I take it you have seen Eve Online.   I have been working on a space trader for a nubmer of years, now on version 7, as I keep changing technoligies/thoughts, etc..  Screenshot of current version is at my website listed below.  It has space flight, hyperdrive, minimal weapons, chat, space loaded from database, cargo bays load up, but nowhere to trade yet, etc...  My goal was to have "free trade in space"  with other entities, players, etc.. full governments/politics, economies, missions, epic quests, player contributed content in the form of hiring other players, creating missions, etc.  Another prime goal was to be able to get into your ship and just sail away....and just enjoy travelling the universe trading, meeting others, running from the local law or being the local law.  WIll be keeping my eye on this one so I can play as soon as you guys are ready.

Oh, and kev, you may recognize the model I am using as a placeholder   Grin

MickeyB

Current Project: http://www22.brinkster.com/mbowles/
Offline Gudradain
« Reply #87 - Posted 2009-03-23 23:07:11 »

Project dead too??
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