Java-Gaming.org    
Featured games (81)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (482)
Games in Android Showcase (110)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (547)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
  Java 3D on Sony Playstation 2  (Read 9030 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline fed007

Junior Newbie




Big Brother is parsing...


« Posted 2002-12-04 14:32:17 »

Hello Everyone,

The thought of a JVM on the Playstation 2 is a very exciting concept.  I will immediately be purchasing the java enabled device as soon as I know it is on the market.

Does anyone know when exactly those versions on the playstation will be available and possibly an indentifiable series number to ensure I get the right model?

Also does anyone know the limitations of Sony's Java support,  Sun seems to imply Sony will support Java 3D however I have found some URLs that state it won't be supported immediately.

What is the truth?

fed007


Offline fed007

Junior Newbie




Big Brother is parsing...


« Reply #1 - Posted 2002-12-04 18:35:46 »

OK - people ,

I will hopefully make this easier to get my answer.  

Have any of you people who HAVE the Playstation 2 connected it to broadband yet?

If so you should be able to browse the net.  Please msg me and I will set up a Java 3D Applet to see if your Playstation console will be able to render the code at the URL.  (it will be a fun experiment!)

The possibilties for Java/Console support should yield concepts far more entertaining with higher abstractions than is whats possible with low level APIs in the old gaming world.

The graphics abilities and support are just a matter of time and computing power.  Architecture should be everyones primary focus.

fed007,

-- Control the present to control the past to control the future --  

Offline augusto

Senior Newbie





« Reply #2 - Posted 2002-12-04 20:12:48 »


Have any of you people who HAVE the Playstation 2 connected it to broadband yet?  

If so you should be able to browse the net.  Please msg me and I will set up a Java 3D Applet to see if your Playstation console will be able to render the code at the URL.  (it will be a fun experiment!)


I have the PS2 network adapter, no it does not come with a browser. You'll have better luck talking with somebody that has the Linux kit. However, I doubt Java3D works on PS2 Linux.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #3 - Posted 2002-12-05 07:05:36 »

I also cannot imagine who should be interested in this(beside some enthusiasts) ?

PS2 is a VERY commercial product for games! And there are NO need-to-have Java3D games.....

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2002-12-05 12:17:26 »

If you could run Java3D games on a PS2 then you could write a game on PC and then it could be directly released on PC, Linux, Ps2 etc etc. As lots of people are doing this anyway, an easy way to use it would be potentially very valuable.
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #5 - Posted 2002-12-05 13:17:44 »

The capabilities and interfaces of the PC and PS2 are so utterly different from one another you are almost certainly wasting time even considering the idea. Just forget about it...

Cas Smiley

Offline Conzar

Junior Member




There is nothing common about common sense


« Reply #6 - Posted 2002-12-05 14:00:07 »

Define Interfaces.  People most likely said that about sun's architecture and the x86 arch when Java was being concidered.

Ubuntu
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #7 - Posted 2002-12-05 14:16:44 »

PC: Keyboard, mouse, joystick. Incredible amount of control available.

PS2: Crap gamepad thing. Unthinkable regression from Atari joystick. In fact, several crap gamepad things. Split screen action!

PC: Hires monitor, seen from about 3ft.

PS2: 320x256 television output, often seen from 10ft away. Theoretically it's higher, but theoretically I can read the small print on mortgage agreements too.

That's what I meant by interfaces, nothing loaded...

That's only the half of it anyway. There's the pitifully slow processor in the PS2 and the meagre 32Mb of RAM which isn't going to grow any time soon, not to mention the radically different capabilities of the graphics architecture.

I work for Sony now Smiley Trust me, you won't see Java on PS2.

Cas Smiley

Offline Conzar

Junior Member




There is nothing common about common sense


« Reply #8 - Posted 2002-12-05 14:59:59 »

Does the PS2 not have 2 USB ports?

Anyways - I am happy that you work for Sony.  Are you a programmer or hardware engineer?  

Other consoles could be concidered for a JVM like the Crapbox - I mean Xbox.  

Also, what the heck does "CAS" mean?Huh?

Ubuntu
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #9 - Posted 2002-12-05 15:15:51 »

Just a lowly programmer.

XBox isn't likely to get Java either which is a shame, as it's the only one with the potential to actually make it happen.

Cas Smiley <-- That's my name, dude!

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Who, me?


« Reply #10 - Posted 2002-12-05 16:28:49 »

Quote
Cas Smiley <-- That's my name, dude!


ROFL!

Smiley Cheesy Grin Cool Roll Eyes

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline augusto

Senior Newbie





« Reply #11 - Posted 2002-12-05 17:36:50 »

Quote
PC: Keyboard, mouse, joystick. Incredible amount of control available.

PS2: Crap gamepad thing. Unthinkable regression from Atari joystick. In fact, several crap gamepad things. Split screen action!


Some PS2 games support USB keyboard and mice. That's why the put the USB ports in there.

As for the "crap" controller, that's one of the reasons I rather play on my console. I like games that depend on a simple controller. You can do more with a mouse and keyboard, but it's a horrible interface for gaming. Not to mention, that there are already products that combine the PS2 gamepad and keyboard. However, I think using the keyboard for anything else than typing is the wrong direction.

Either way, I don't see this as a big impediment to Java gaming on PS2. That is, unless you mean that Java doesn't have a way to read the PS2 (or any console's) gamepad.

Quote

PC: Hires monitor, seen from about 3ft.

PS2: 320x256 television output, often seen from 10ft away. Theoretically it's higher, but theoretically I can read the small print on mortgage agreements too.


I have a really nice Sony WEGA TV, that while it has MUCH more less resolution, I rather use it for watching DVDs and playing games. Also I'm more confortable playing in my sofa, than on my computer desk, which I spend most of the day working.

This is more like a dig against consoles, not a reason for Java to not work on a console.

I'm guessing you don't like consoles?

Quote

That's only the half of it anyway. There's the pitifully slow processor in the PS2 and the meagre 32Mb of RAM which isn't going to grow any time soon, not to mention the radically different capabilities of the graphics architecture.


Now these are valid points. I wonder what you mean by 32Mb of RAM that isn't going to grown any time soon, it's NEVER going to grow more than likely. That's the point of the console.

The question here is does a Java game VM could fit on a console. The answer is yes, since smaller and less capable VMs can run on a phone. The question is, what types of games you could make with it. Probably Tetris and Tic Tac Toe, but not Jax & Dexter.
Offline fed007

Junior Newbie




Big Brother is parsing...


« Reply #12 - Posted 2002-12-07 14:37:34 »


So what is really happening to the PS2, notice any trends with keyboards and mice peripherals now,  what next?   Virtual Reality Gear, New graphics modules to plug into the PS2, replacement components?

As long as a person can stay on their couch, it's a sweet deal.

The line is obviously blurring between "console" and "computer", I believe there will be a push by private venture to fill in the gaps in the graphics department (look how far we have come in such a short time in both console/PC graphics)  

By focusing on Java and using better components we will be able to drive immersive VR environments and still satisfy TV users (This can be done today if sony supported the API).  Also remember that applicable Nanotechnolog is right around the corner so no one should be caught touting there is not enough processing power...and that Java is slow...

Java is pure and high level, it also provides the abstractions necessary change the gaming world dramatically.    All agree that this will come from a functional standpoint first then graphics...

Easily creating  distributed architectures and spanning a large number of devices, portable/desktop/console places developers in an attractive position to make some serious $$$.

Keep in mind where this is all headed,  IMMERSIVENESS

In my lifetime,  I expect to see this, just another interface to the system.

Consoles are popular because they require no braincells and we can hook them up to our home theatre systems for a kickass experience.

If putting a JVM on PS2 and supporting the 3D API is so easy why haven't they done it?

(I'll betcha money is involved - the big boys do not want to lower the barrieir to entry)

fed007




Offline magellan

Junior Newbie





« Reply #13 - Posted 2002-12-08 19:36:04 »

Cas:

As a more or less inside guy, do you know if Sony is already planning on using a more MHz powerfull MIPS core next time?

Seeing that the xbox is mostly popular because of its
higher performance, and Sony likes backward compatibility  to allow old games on its new consoles, the 20KC core might not be bad for a playstation3 to top both, would it?

It is out a good year now, so prices shouldn't be that high anymore. I read somewhere that some odd company wants to reach the 2GHz with that core. Shocked

I don't know, but what would be the biggest stopper for a JVM anyway. Clockspeed or memorysize?

Surely you don't think that the world is a rule for measuring the universe?
Offline Conzar

Junior Member




There is nothing common about common sense


« Reply #14 - Posted 2002-12-08 19:48:11 »

One thing also to note about JVMs is that anyone can produce a JVM as long as you are complient with Sun's JVM's specs.  (Microcrap I mean MicroSoft was not compilient so they got sued and lost).  

One qustion to ask is, how does one go about designing a JVM for a particular archetecture?


Ubuntu
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #15 - Posted 2002-12-08 23:19:30 »

I'm not that inside, just fringes really.
But of course - do you really think they'll make the next one slower Cheesy ?

My guess is that it will be at least four times as fast and with around 128Mb of RAM, with graphics crunching to match.

Cas Smiley

Offline magellan

Junior Newbie





« Reply #16 - Posted 2002-12-09 11:39:50 »

Quote

But of course - do you really think they'll make the next one slower  ?


Mmmm....., tough one that....  Roll Eyes

Quote

My guess is that it will be at least four times as fast and with around 128Mb of RAM, with graphics crunching to match.


Wow, really?!! Ok, you got me, got a bit retorical there.

But then, if you expect the thing to get better, don't you belie the last half of your complaints?
- Yeah, so ?
- K, never mind, that was what I meant

<nerdporn>
PS: great graphics may indeed be true 'cause ATI is partnered with MIPS as well.
</nerdporn>

Cheers

Surely you don't think that the world is a rule for measuring the universe?
Offline JasonB

Junior Member





« Reply #17 - Posted 2002-12-10 03:12:48 »

Cas,

I dunno how I missed this post, or I would've said something earlier.  See comments below:

Quote
PS2: Crap gamepad thing. Unthinkable regression from Atari joystick. In fact, several crap gamepad things. Split screen action!

Your opinion is probably flying in the face of more than a few million console owners.  Frankly I like the controller.  I get less RSI problems from using that than gaming with a mouse.  Frankly, I haven't looked back since I stopped PC gaming and moved to the PS2.
Now if you want to talk crap controllers, take a look at the Xbox.  THAT is my idea of a crap controller.

Quote
PS2: 320x256 television output, often seen from 10ft away. Theoretically it's higher, but theoretically I can read the small print on mortgage agreements too.

Plenty of games are ported between consoles and the PC.  They already deal with the difference in resolution -- no reason why Java games should be any different.  In fact, isn't there an argument for Java doing better against the competition in those environments than it would against cutting edge PC games...

Quote
I work for Sony now Smiley Trust me, you won't see Java on PS2.

Would you care to put some money on that....?  Cause I've seen a screenshot of Java running in a browser on the PS2.  Maybe you mistyped and meant Java3D.  In which case I won't make any money from you after all.  :-(  

J
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #18 - Posted 2002-12-10 10:17:09 »

I've got to say Jase that I'm all huff and puff really and it's basically just my opinions!

WRT the controller, it's about the coding to the available interfaces and the requirements for the style of game. The most extreme but irrelevant example I could give you is a text based adventure game - it won't happen on a console because there's no keyboard! You can get less and less extreme but still end up with the same fundamental problem - a game tends to be shaped by the available interfaces to it.

To write for PS/2 you necessarily forego any designs involving more than about 4 keys and/or a mouse and hires graphics. Age of Empires would not only be difficult to play with a gamepad but the tiny hires graphics would suffer terribly at TV resolution. The games that port lend themselves to low resolutions because they're 3D and things of interest tend to loom large in the field of view.

And most of those console owners have never used a proper old fashioned Atari joystick so they don't know what they're missing Smiley Kids these days eh?

Now as for Java on the PS/2: if it can run on a Nokia I'm pretty sure it can run on a PS/2 but if by "run" you mean "be a serious contender to release the platform's potential" instead of "execute pathetic Tetris clones at 5fps after interminable download on Sony's brilliant new SonyNet idea, cor it's just like the Internet except you have to pay Sony*" then yes, you might as well assume I'm right Wink Fiver was it?

Cas Smiley

* just being satirical here...

Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #19 - Posted 2002-12-10 10:20:48 »

Ah and in case you weren't reading between the lines there - any port of Java that will damage the reputations of any involved party is likely to be quietly sidelined once the dust has settled on the screenshots.

And a port of Java that runs like Java 1.0 on a 100Mhz Pentium is probably going to set Sun back years in credibility and Sony too. They will almost certainly determine that it is useless and bury it.

Cas Smiley

Offline Conzar

Junior Member




There is nothing common about common sense


« Reply #20 - Posted 2002-12-10 15:37:08 »

Several Things,
Quote
And a port of Java that runs like Java 1.0 on a 100Mhz Pentium is probably going to set Sun back years in credibility and Sony too. They will almost certainly determine that it is useless and bury it.

If Sun doesn't build the JVM for PS2 (not PS/2 - that is a perif. port which succesed the AT port), then their reputation will be held.  However decides on doing it - 3rd party or big company will but their rep on the line.  If its some new 3rd party, then it just might be worth it since nobody knows them anyways.

Quote
it won't happen on a console because there's no keyboard!

This is wrong!!!!  There are 2 USB ports on the PS2.  In fact, EverQuest for the PS2 uses the keyboard if you have it (as well as some other games).  Is it unherd of to make a game for a console that only uses the Keyboard?  Nope, Typing of the Dead for DreamCast was a really really good game that got high reviews and only used the keyboard.  (It was ported over to the PC too).  

Quote
Now as for Java on the PS/2: if it can run on a Nokia I'm pretty sure it can run on a PS/2 but if by "run" you mean "be a serious contender to release the platform's potential" instead of "execute pathetic Tetris clones at 5fps after interminable download on Sony's brilliant new SonyNet idea, cor it's just like the Internet except you have to pay Sony*" then yes, you might as well assume I'm right  Fiver was it?

What Java "game" is a serious contender in the PC releam?  I don't know of any that you can go to the store purchase.  The big java games happen to be small little apps you play online (and gambling games too).  You could certaintly release these small games in a bundle if you really wanted too.  I bet people would buy it.  Or you could use the eithernet adaptor to connect to a server and pay some monthly fee to play games and win prizes.  

The point is, keep an open mind on these things.  Yes there are hurdles - there always are. Writting a JVM for PS2, GBA, GameCube, XBox, ect, ect ,ect are all possible.  The more JVM's there are avaible, the more wide spread Java becomes.  

Ubuntu
Offline JasonB

Junior Member





« Reply #21 - Posted 2002-12-10 16:15:34 »

Quote
I've got to say Jase that I'm all huff and puff really and it's basically just my opinions!

Which is exactly why I enjoy arguing with you about them.   Tongue

Quote
WRT the controller, it's about the coding to the available interfaces and the requirements for the style of game.

Again, I would argue that other games (non-Java) are contending with this issue already.

Quote
The games that port lend themselves to low resolutions because they're 3D and things of interest tend to loom large in the field of view.

I think we're pretty much talking around each other here.  My argument, at this point, is that assuming we had a full Java 1.4 on the PS2 (ignoring issues such as memory, etc) along with some sort of 3D toolkit (Java3D, or your own lightweight library, for example), then Java -could- be a serious contender, especially when you take into account the screen resolution.

However, personally I think that due to the constraints of the console, it's highly unlikely we'd see a -performant- Java VM on PS2 (I'm quite prepared to be proved wrong) -- so I'd be willing to settle for natively (yerk) compiled Java.  Grin  (ie. Java the language, rather than Java the platform).

Quote
And most of those console owners have never used a proper old fashioned Atari joystick so they don't know what they're missing Smiley Kids these days eh?

I have, and I never liked it.  And if we're demonstrating age, I was playing games on a TRS-80  (Deathmaze 2000.  3D in 4mm-line vectored splendor).

By the way, I find it interesting that Sony demoed Java running on the PS2 (a PersonalJava applet, I think it was), said something would be out by the end of 2001 (or was it 2?), and then everything went quiet.  Very little has been said about it since then.  PS3.... maybe.... hopefully... :-/
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #22 - Posted 2002-12-10 17:17:51 »

Quote

By the way, I find it interesting that Sony demoed Java running on the PS2 (a PersonalJava applet, I think it was), said something would be out by the end of 2001 (or was it 2?), and then everything went quiet.  Very little has been said about it since then.  PS3.... maybe.... hopefully...

Well, yeah, I think this says it all to me Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline augusto

Senior Newbie





« Reply #23 - Posted 2002-12-11 04:41:27 »

The closest thing to Java on PS2 that I've heard about is some guys who have compiled Kaffe on the PS2 Linux kit.

http://playstation2-linux.com/forum/message.php?msg_id=13682
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #24 - Posted 2002-12-11 09:04:22 »

Y'see, all of this Java-on-PS/2 stuff is just nerd pr0n at the end of the day... the PS/2 is a consumer device and there will be no forgiveness if it's not as good as or better than what they've already got... so it's not like people are going to flock in droves to get Java for PS/2 because it'll just simply be useless to them. Without the performance to write proper software in Java, PS/2 developers will largely ignore it, and without genuinely useful software with consumer demand, customers won't need to bother with Java.

Anyway, nuff said on the whole matter, as it's all just a big load of vapour...

Cas Smiley

Offline Conzar

Junior Member




There is nothing common about common sense


« Reply #25 - Posted 2002-12-11 11:17:01 »

PS/2 is the specification for a port.  Its name is derived by the IBM PS/2 model because it was the first model to
implement the spec.  Previous models used the AT spec.  

So stop confusing PS/2 for PS2

Ubuntu
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #26 - Posted 2002-12-11 11:47:54 »

I couldn't disagree more about the jvm on ps2 point. Look at the big games this christmas- they are being released across platforms wherever possible. Splinter Cell being a good example- simultaneously released on PS2, PC, GC and Xbox- if you had a JVM for each of those consoles you could write the whole lot once and release it with only the minimum control remapping between different platforms. In the vast majority of cases I believe development companies would sacrifice a bit of cutting-edgeness to be able to do this. If the jvms were well designed and optimised they wouldn't even need to sacrifice much at all.

The future of games is more about content and less about development environment anyway, I reckon- if you can do the lot with one development environment then so much the better.
Online princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #27 - Posted 2002-12-11 12:43:31 »

I couldn't disagree more Breakfast Smiley The future of games as I see it is- Why by hardware platform X instead of hardware platform Y? Specifically in the console market. What makes PS2 (there you go Conzar Grin) better than XBox? And so of course you'll get games that use some feature of one platform or other to be their defining characteristic. This may largely be why so many games are just eye-candy and no gameplay these days. But it's still the way the market's been heading for the last few years, and it's the way Sony-san is pushing it, deliberately.

Cas Smiley

Offline cknoll

Junior Member




Flame On!


« Reply #28 - Posted 2002-12-11 13:03:26 »

The 'exclusive games only on platform X' business model is broken.  Microsoft tried to do it by buying games companyies to only make games for xbox, and the revenue from that division is sucking wind.  Sega Dream Cast tried to do that too, and look where the Dreamcast console is now...They came to their senses and now Sega makes games for multiple platforms (and they are a more healthy company for it).  The exclusive platform development you are describing, Cas, benefits no one but the console makers.  I don't plan on becomming a console maker (and therefore benefit from single-platform game development), I'd like to become a games developer, and being able to deploy games across multiple platforms with little effort means I make more money.  The JVM gives the perfect abstraction layer to take advantage of the hardware available on the specific console, while still working within a standard API.  This may be a pipe dream, but it's worked in my business software so far (although game software is a completely different beast with more dependencies on the hardware, but I still feel it can be done).

-Chris
Offline augusto

Senior Newbie





« Reply #29 - Posted 2002-12-11 13:04:25 »

What makes PS2 (there you go Conzar ) better than XBox?

Name brand.

Good marketing.

LOTS of games.

Backwards compatibility.

That's why the PS2 is immensely more popular than XBOX. When it all comes down, most of the reasons are not even that technical. Users couldn't care what runs inside their console, wheter it's a "massively parallel" grpahics engine or just a regular PC architecture inside their box.

Why is it more popular than PC gaming? Well controllers, easy to use, no compatibility and upgrade nightmares, sitting in front of the TV, etc.

What's really "developer p0rn" is the kind of flame wars that I used to read about who could push more polygons.
Pages: [1] 2
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

atombrot (26 views)
2014-08-19 09:29:53

Tekkerue (24 views)
2014-08-16 06:45:27

Tekkerue (23 views)
2014-08-16 06:22:17

Tekkerue (13 views)
2014-08-16 06:20:21

Tekkerue (20 views)
2014-08-16 06:12:11

Rayexar (59 views)
2014-08-11 02:49:23

BurntPizza (38 views)
2014-08-09 21:09:32

BurntPizza (30 views)
2014-08-08 02:01:56

Norakomi (37 views)
2014-08-06 19:49:38

BurntPizza (67 views)
2014-08-03 02:57:17
List of Learning Resources
by Longor1996
2014-08-16 10:40:00

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-08-05 19:33:27

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:20:17

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:19:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:29:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:26:06

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 11:54:12

HotSpot Options
by dleskov
2014-07-08 01:59:08
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!