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  Applet Reliability: Test with me! (MSIE 7.0 please)  (Read 10435 times)
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Offline bienator

Senior Member




OutOfCoffeeException


« Reply #30 - Posted 2008-11-20 12:13:37 »

I installed u10 at work, and cannot reproduce the problems anymore.

Now I only have to wait 5-10 years before most of our customers have upgraded Wink
or you could force your customers to upgread (no risk no fun  Cool)

Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #31 - Posted 2008-11-20 12:23:34 »

I installed u10 at work, and cannot reproduce the problems anymore.

Now I only have to wait 5-10 years before most of our customers have upgraded Wink

Nice test. I didn't see any problems on any machine or browser i tried it with, and they all used java 6 u10.

I think we can give Ken Russell a big clap for making the new java 6 u10 applet plugin so much better  Cool

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 781
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #32 - Posted 2008-11-20 12:29:35 »

Forcing 99.9% of your potentially paying customers to:

1. read an annoying message about some technology they don't care about
2. clicking a download button
3. wait for 15MB to download (with 10kb/s, yeah, not everybody has broadband)
4. installing the darn thing (or forgetting it)
5. restarting the browser (oh, and then people forgot your domainname, so you lost them!)

... is commercial suicide.


So until then, we can only add a link with a flashy image in the corner of the page:
Problems? Click here!
which installs u10 which is hosted locally, so people don't have to wade through java.com's horrific i18n.

I'd almost forget it is illegal to host a JRE download file, you must embed it in an app... bugger

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Offline bienator

Senior Member




OutOfCoffeeException


« Reply #33 - Posted 2008-11-20 12:51:02 »

you could at least display a "for best user expearance click here" button if the user has 1.4 or 1.5 installed. Its a javascript five-liner. You could even restrict it only to customers who already paid if you fear to loose them.

At the end of the day it depends if the customers really want the app or not. (is it yet an other screencapture tool or is it crysis 3?...)

but my post wasn't 100% serious anyway Wink

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #34 - Posted 2008-11-20 14:45:33 »

Forcing 99.9% of your potentially paying customers to:

1. read an annoying message about some technology they don't care about
2. clicking a download button
3. wait for 15MB to download (with 10kb/s, yeah, not everybody has broadband)
4. installing the darn thing (or forgetting it)
5. restarting the browser (oh, and then people forgot your domainname, so you lost them!)

... is commercial suicide.


So until then, we can only add a link with a flashy image in the corner of the page:
Problems? Click here!
which installs u10 which is hosted locally, so people don't have to wade through java.com's horrific i18n.

I'd almost forget it is illegal to host a JRE download file, you must embed it in an app... bugger

Sorry...and, yes, I know it's not the most popular position here, but "commercial suicide"?  That's a load of crap.

So, let's take it one point at a time:

1. read an annoying message about some technology they don't care about

It's filler, so what?  I can say the same exact thing about commercials on TV yet people still put up with them.  Big deal.  No one complains that to upgrade Flash, you actually get ejected to Adobe's site that is a big ad for Flash and Adobe technologies.

2. clicking a download button

To an auto installer (mostly).  People are willing to go through an AWFUL lot to get to the things they want to do.

3. wait for 15MB to download (with 10kb/s, yeah, not everybody has broadband)

Again, 15MB? Really?  So, correct, not everyone has broadband, but the numbers are growing rapidly:

Worldwide consumer broadband connections will grow from 323 million connections in 2007 to 499 million in 2012, according to Gartner, Inc. Worldwide consumer broadband connections penetrated 18 percent of households in 2007, and by 2012, households with a broadband connection will reach 25 percent.

Five countries exceeded 60 percent broadband penetration into the home in 2007; and, this is expected to grow to 17 countries by 2012. The five countries with broadband penetration into the home above 60 percent are Canada, Netherlands, Switzerland, South Korea and Hong Kong (see Table 1).

http://www.gartner.com/it/page.jsp?id=729907



Again, it all depends on the kind of gamer you are targeting.  Also, after you have, at least 1.4 installed (and 1.4/5 shipping on well over 80% of all new PCs worldwide) the downloads are not 15MB+ and are incremental.

4. installing the darn thing (or forgetting it)

Again, auto install for a majority of folks and the issue of "Where did it go" seems to be less and less of an issue.

5. restarting the browser (oh, and then people forgot your domainname, so you lost them!)

Oh, you mean, like Flash? Or Shockwave? Come on....


So, here's a perfect example of what people will go through.  In our house, we did that silly Elf Yourself app with the kids to send to their grandparents.  After getting the damn thing to work, not break connections, understand that I didn't want to drag the photo around anymore, etc. (BTW, Flash application!) we finished our little video and e-mailed the link to the grandparents.  We proceeded to spend 45 min on the phone with them trying to get a new version of Flash installed on their WinXP machine so they could see the animation of the grandkids.  We suggested that they just wait until they came over to the house during the weekend to see it but they didn't want to wait.  After, in total, almost 1 hour, they were able to see the 1 min long clip of the kids.

Point is, if people want a piece of content badly enough, they will jump through hoops.  Not an excuse by ANY stretch and we need to constantly improve the experience, so don't misunderstand me.  I am not an apologist for the things that should work better, but "commercial suicide"? That is WAAAYYY overreaching.

Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #35 - Posted 2008-11-20 15:28:12 »

For IE isn't there the object tag (I thought I saw somewhere else that you had very little firefox ppl) which starts a wizzard, which installs it quite easily. Well these days it's probably a bar at the top saying "this website requires java for some of it's content click here to install".

I can't confirm as I don't have windows here, and I haven't fiddled with applets for years. I know that six years ago java could be installed as easily as flash(using the right tags). IE has changed and ActiveX has fallen from grace(wonder why  Roll Eyes Wink) so it might not be the case any more.

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline ewjordan

Junior Member





« Reply #36 - Posted 2008-11-20 15:33:10 »

Oh, you mean, like Flash? Or Shockwave? Come on....
Average people will jump through hoops for Flash because without it they can't get to YouTube.  Before YouTube and its ilk, people did resist Flash to a very large extent, as it was almost exclusively used to bring us crappy adver-games.

Java doesn't have a killer app like YouTube to make sure people keep their JVMs up to date - Azureus might be the closest thing we've got, but there are so many non-Java alternatives for torrents that I don't think it quite fits the bill.  That is the crux of the problem; perhaps JavaFX will help in that regard if some big players adopt it, but that's up in the air at the moment, and it's a chicken and egg problem.

If I'm correct, though, once people get 6u10 they will be auto-updated, right?  That should help the future of consumer Java considerably once a decent number of people get there.  It's also a feature that should have been added almost a decade ago, but that's another matter altogether...
Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #37 - Posted 2008-11-20 15:48:49 »

Well there is openoffice too? I gues.  http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Java_and_OpenOffice.org not sure how aggressive it is. Openoffice is beeign picked up by students - best proof for that is possibly office for home users and students.

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline brackeen

Junior Member





« Reply #38 - Posted 2008-11-20 17:31:15 »

Most will get 6u10 from software update (I've been watching 6u10 hits on my server slowly creep up over the past few weeks)

Okay, here's the bug # I mentioned earlier:
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6391104
It sounds like you can alleviate the problem by using smaller jars. So in your distribution step, combine all your jars into one and use ProGuard on it. Also, one applet per page seems to be better, but I'm not sure if your app requires multiple applets in a page.
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 781
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #39 - Posted 2008-11-20 17:44:17 »

Quote
Again, it all depends on the kind of gamer you are targeting.  Also, after you have, at least 1.4 installed (and 1.4/5 shipping on well over 80% of all new PCs worldwide) the downloads are not 15MB+ and are incremental.

....
....
....

Point is, if people want a piece of content badly enough, they will jump through hoops.  Not an excuse by ANY stretch and we need to constantly improve the experience, so don't misunderstand me.  I am not an apologist for the things that should work better, but "commercial suicide"? That is WAAAYYY overreaching.

The point is that I'm not targetting gamers at all! The random middle aged (innocent!) visitor that is interested in fully customizable closets (the folks that don't know the diff between MS Paint and Photoshop) should be able to 'click and go', instead of 'click and start the procedure'.

Targeting gamers is much much easier. When you target older (tech-ignorant) people, it IS a commercial... nightmare. (mmmkey?)

Further, I'm not whining (maybe it gets interpretated that way) but that's not my intention. I'm very gratefull that we can finally offer visitors something that is (more or less) guaranteed to work, now that we have u10.

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Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 781
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #40 - Posted 2008-11-20 17:51:09 »

For IE isn't there the object tag (I thought I saw somewhere else that you had very little firefox ppl) which starts a wizzard, which installs it quite easily. Well these days it's probably a bar at the top saying "this website requires java for some of it's content click here to install".

Sure, the object-tag is much better when the plugin needs to be installed (nice yellow bar), whereas the applet-tag takes you to some obscure page with ultimate MicroSoft confusion trying to make you change MSIE settings to 'enable' Java.

Anyway, the object tag has(<u10) / had(u10+) exactly the same problems as the applet tag.
So for keeping the testcase simple, I decided to go with the applet tag, as that should work in every browser.

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Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 781
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #41 - Posted 2008-11-20 17:55:23 »

It sounds like you can alleviate the problem by using smaller jars. So in your distribution step, combine all your jars into one and use ProGuard on it. Also, one applet per page seems to be better, but I'm not sure if your app requires multiple applets in a page.

The commercial applet is rather big. Mostly due to resources (images - 700KB) but also roughly 800KB in class files alone.
Shrinking it (removing all unused classes) is a lot of work, because I'm using reflection, and static optimizers remove way too much classes.

I might have to put that effort into it some day, though, if it really helps.
Further, I have only 1 applet on my page (not even dynamically embedded), but that hangs / hanged often enough!

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Offline brackeen

Junior Member





« Reply #42 - Posted 2008-11-20 18:04:20 »

Shrinking it (removing all unused classes) is a lot of work, because I'm using reflection, and static optimizers remove way too much classes.
Ah yeah, reflection is ProGuard's kryptonite.
Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #43 - Posted 2008-11-20 18:16:35 »

So for keeping the testcase simple, I decided to go with the applet tag, as that should work in every browser.

http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/guides/plugin/developer_guide/using_tags.html - show ways to get the best of both worlds.

Not sure if it would pass strict validation though.  Roll Eyes

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline hishadow

Senior Newbie





« Reply #44 - Posted 2008-11-25 18:40:56 »

I might have to put that effort into it some day, though, if it really helps.
Further, I have only 1 applet on my page (not even dynamically embedded), but that hangs / hanged often enough!
Update 10 have the separate_jvm parameter. Maybe that could help (with refreshes too). link

Concerning your users: inform them that your program is much more stable with update 10 and include some instructional text on how to install the update. Needless to say, the java updater is a horrible openoffice pushing bastard. They got alot to learn from how Adobe have handle Flash, though I suspect Adobe will start pushing AIR more agressivly too (as in Adobe Reader).
Offline DzzD
« Reply #45 - Posted 2008-11-25 18:51:28 »

Quote
Quote from: Riven on November 20, 2008, 09:51:09 AM
So for keeping the testcase simple, I decided to go with the applet tag, as that should work in every browser.


http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/technotes/guides/plugin/developer_guide/using_tags.html - show ways to get the best of both worlds.

Not sure if it would pass strict validation though. 

IMHO, Applet tag is the most compatbile.... and it's better to have something that works on IE/FF than something that pass vaidation... I really dont care about validation and found that ... burk... but that's a personal opinion Smiley

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 781
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #46 - Posted 2008-11-25 20:01:27 »

I'm not a laywer, read the license Wink

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