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  Community Call to Action re: JVM on PS3  (Read 19084 times)
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Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #60 - Posted 2008-10-01 17:40:42 »

It is a stupid example as even my father sometimes gave some French pastries for free to his clients in his restaurant, it didn't prevent him from selling other things. Therefore, both commercial and non commercial games can exist on a single platform, even on consoles, not only on PC.

The difference is that your father gave away the free bits as a way to keep customers.  Consider it marketing.  He would oppose someone coming in and giving away free food on their own, I am sure.

Quote
Does it mean that you don't encourage free open source game programming on the PS3 that has a near-commercial quality? Zymotic and Nexuiz are good on my view even though they are free, why their developers shouldn't be encouraged to port their games onto the PS3 in Java?

If games like Nexuiz were made available on the PS3, they would be closed builds and offered through a closed distribution system.  Period.  Don't confuse being free with being open source.  Sony and Microsoft both give away product for free when it serves them.  It is marketing and customer retention, just like the food example above.

Quote
Cell phones are not so closed as it is already possible to put games into a WAP site or a website to allow customers to download them without requiring the authorization of Apple, Motorola, Nokia...

Yes, and those games and apps don't get any of the marketing attention from said companies.  If an unauthorized app damages your phone, it won't be covered under the manufacturer's warranty.  In some cases, like with iPhones, an official update may brick your device and you have no recourse but to purchase another.

Quote
Video games are both a part of our culture and an information medium. Preventing people from accessing to information is a form of censorship, it is not ethical.
Sorry, but you are flat out wrong.  Since when does something that has cultural relevance mean that there should be free, unfettered access to said content at the expense of another entity?  If you can provide at least one outlet for expression of content then censorship does not apply.  So you may not get any content you want on the PS3, you can put it on the web.  Sony can decide tomorrow to only allow games that they make to be played on PS3.  That is their choice as they are the ones who developed the system and thus control the eco-system. If you don't like it, don't buy their platform.  Apple has worked in this way for decades.  So has Microsoft.

Quote
I'm ready to pay for Sony's development kit; if I do it, it will earn some money, it is then not necessary to prevent me from giving games for free because Sony will recoup its investment through the price of the dev kit.

Sorry, but wrong again.  If you think that a platform manufacturer is going to recoup their investment though the sales of dev kits, then you really don't understand the economics of getting these platforms to market, or the cost of these development platforms.  If you want to give your game away for free, that's fine.  But Sony will be charging you a distribution (royalty) fee per title.  Last generation, PS2, that was $7 per unit.

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #61 - Posted 2008-10-01 17:57:13 »

Anyway... basically the Thing Wot's Needed is someone with a PS3 dev kit license, a lot of time, and OpenJDK. Or, if Sun were to properly sponsor the effort, some Sun-provided PS3 dev kit and an engineer or two from the Sun JDK team. The rest of it -- that is the LWJGL port etc. -- is actually pretty trivial stuff.

Cas Smiley

And ideally, out of that effort should come a new, low-cost java-based devkit exclusively for PSN titles.
That's what I would do if I were sony anyway.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #62 - Posted 2008-10-01 18:10:14 »

The difference is that your father gave away the free bits as a way to keep customers.  Consider it marketing.  He would oppose someone coming in and giving away free food on their own, I am sure.
Lol you change your comparison as I have proven it was wrong, you make me laugh.

Don't confuse being free with being open source. 
I don't confuse anything, I'm not stupid.

Yes, and those games and apps don't get any of the marketing attention from said companies.  If an unauthorized app damages your phone, it won't be covered under the manufacturer's warranty.  In some cases, like with iPhones, an official update may brick your device and you have no recourse but to purchase another.
It is wrong. I broke my cell phones several times, I often use "unauthorized" applications and both the manufacturer and the service provider didn't try to refuse covering damages (even though my service provider knows I use such apps). However, my service provider tells me that its warranty won't cover damages if I install another operating system (Montevista Linux for example) on my cell phone. There is a huge difference between a simple application and an operating system.

Apple has worked in this way for decades.  So has Microsoft.
I have never said that I agree with Microsoft.

If you think that a platform manufacturer is going to recoup their investment though the sales of dev kits, then you really don't understand the economics of getting these platforms to market, or the cost of these development platforms.  If you want to give your game away for free, that's fine.  But Sony will be charging you a distribution (royalty) fee per title.  Last generation, PS2, that was $7 per unit.
Lol Sony has enough money to pay its shareholders but not enough to recoup its investment though the sales of dev kits, you make me laugh again.

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Offline gouessej
« Reply #63 - Posted 2008-10-01 18:14:33 »

And ideally, out of that effort should come a new, low-cost java-based devkit exclusively for PSN titles.
That's what I would do if I were sony anyway.
You give Sony a way of earning money without developing the dev kit by itself  Sad We have the right to contribute, to help them to develop the dev kit it will sell and they have the right to ask us to pay royalties, it doesn't seem very fair on my view.

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #64 - Posted 2008-10-01 18:17:07 »

Lol you change your comparison as I have proven it was wrong, you make me laugh.

Was not my comparison, and it was not changed.  I believe you misunderstood Erik wen he said: Another example: If you would have a bakery shop, would you invite people to your shop (or even allow them) that give bread away for free to your potential customers?

I believe, and correct me Erik if I am wrong, that if you owned a bakery you would not invite other people to come in to your shop and give away their food for free to your customers.

Quote
I don't confuse anything, I'm not stupid.

I never stated you were stupid.  But you use open source and free interchangeably.

Quote
It is wrong. I broke my cell phones several times, I often use "unauthorized" applications and both the manufacturer and the service provider didn't try to refuse covering damages (even though my service provider knows I use such apps). However, my service provider tells me that its warranty won't cover damages if I install another operating system (Montevista Linux for example) on my cell phone. There is a huge difference between a simple application and an operating system.

Then consider yourself lucky.  If you used an unauthorized app that broke your phone, you may face a different response.  Talk to original iPhone users who are left with a bricked phone after jailbreaking them.

Quote
I have never said that I agree with Microsoft.

Again, never stated you do.

Quote
Lol Sony has enough money to pay its shareholders but not enough to recoup its investment though the sales of dev kits, you make me laugh again.
Laugh all you want.  It just demonstrates that you don't know how the finances here work.

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #65 - Posted 2008-10-01 18:18:50 »

You give Sony a way of earning money without developing the dev kit by itself  Sad We have the right to contribute, to help them to develop the dev kit it will sell and they have the right to ask us to pay royalties, it doesn't seem very fair on my view.

Sony invested in making the platform in the first place.  If you want in on that, you have to pay.  Sorry that everything can't be free.  If you don't like it, work to get an open platform built, raise the money to build the units, do marketing, R&D, software development, etc. and give it away.  Let me know how you will recoup your investment Wink

I apologize to the rest of the readers that this thread was derailed.  I will not respond here to this line of discussion and we'll resume the discussion as put forth by the OP.

Offline kaffiene
« Reply #66 - Posted 2008-10-01 20:35:00 »

You give Sony a way of earning money without developing the dev kit by itself  Sad We have the right to contribute, to help them to develop the dev kit it will sell and they have the right to ask us to pay royalties, it doesn't seem very fair on my view.

While I admire your commitment to the philosophy of open platforms, that is (a) not what this thread is about and (b) just 100% NOT going to happen - this is a simple and plain commercial reality.

Please start a separate thread if you want to discuss that issue: I do not want to see this thread derailed for a point of view that only you are pushing.  It's not that I have no sympathy for your point of view - far from it - but I have a particular goal that I want to achieve: to allow Java game developers to target the PS3 console platform.  Your concerns are beyond what we are discussing here (and beyond what ANY console developer allows) and so I ask you to respect this discussion and allow us to stay on topic. 

Thanks,

Peter.
Offline DzzD
« Reply #67 - Posted 2008-10-01 20:49:51 »

I found that enabling Java Game on PS3 is a nice idea, especially if you can port some running pc game into to PS3 easily, such maybe as tribal trouble wich could be a very nice console game candidat, but dont you think that's already too late to make new games , PS3 is already out ? PS4 will be soon there Smiley

Offline zammbi

JGO Coder


Medals: 4



« Reply #68 - Posted 2008-10-01 20:57:10 »

Ps4 in 2010 or so what I read.

Current project - Rename and Sort
Offline DzzD
« Reply #69 - Posted 2008-10-01 21:06:39 »

Quote
Ps4 in 2010 or so what I read.
maybe even later,  the idea behind that is rather : preparing a nice implmentation of the JVM & dev kit on PS4 and keep the community and gamestudio "aware", is maybe a better way than trying to catch a train that seems to be already gone.

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Offline gouessej
« Reply #70 - Posted 2008-10-01 21:15:51 »

to allow Java game developers to target the PS3 console platform
Me too, all Java game developers, including free open source developers. Providing your own games for free doesn't mean that you will steal anything from Sony.

On the other hand, some people already wrote a driver for the RSX that can be used on Linux (if the firmware version is lower than 2.0) and I found even a guy that uses RSX through XMB without Linux. I don't encourage people to access to RSX through Linux as it is illegal. I know that there are basically 3 API used to program games under PS3:
- PSSG
- libGCM
- PSGL
The next version of JOGL drives the development of cross-platform applications for desktop PCs and mobile phones easier. What is the strategy that you suggest? Do you want to convince Sony to authorize the community to develop the dev kit or would you like Sun to do it? What is the best option?

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 369
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #71 - Posted 2008-10-02 01:05:50 »

Er, enough! Move that conversation to a chat thread...

Cas Smiley

Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #72 - Posted 2008-10-02 04:31:18 »

So what is the problem?

in the scale of things paying for some dev-kit licences and having a few ppl working on it for a few months seems rather insignificant.

Is it in the licenses between the openjdk(gpl) and the closedness of the that proprietary part that interfaces with the ps3 itself?

Does sony need a license from sun for a closed jdk and aren't they liking the numbers?

Plain bureaucracy?

maybe even later,  the idea behind that is rather : preparing a nice implmentation of the JVM & dev kit on PS4 and keep the community and gamestudio "aware", is maybe a better way than trying to catch a train that seems to be already gone.
having a proof-of-concept on the ps3 would smooth out inclusion for ps4 significantly that an targeting ps4 might leave you with the same situation we are currently in. I think ps3 vs 4 is a non-issue.

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #73 - Posted 2008-10-02 10:19:03 »

BEFORE the thread wandered off a bit, Kaffiene aid:

At this point I think we need:

(a) Game examples that run Java that could work on PS3 casual/Indy channels.
(b) Supporting comments from commercial Java games developers.
(c) Some argument about the desirability of a Java/PS3 development path to rival C#/XNA
(d) Others ideas?

(d) A champion within Sony who's sufficiently senior in the corporate hierarchy to meet you halfway.

(FYI that's how Home started, by all accounts - it was nothing, until Phil Harrison started championing it - and that was already an internal project to start with)

I know a couple of people in Sony who would be very interested in this, and even might - if enough progress happened first - be able to make some things happen. If you got traction, I could certainly ask (if they hadn't spotted it already themselves). They may even be able to help with some of the more thorny technical problems if you were working towards a proof-of-concept or similar.

Some of the objections raised in this thread aren't as lethal as they appear - in particular, every platform holder breaks their own rules regularly where they judge it's in their best interests, but different rules require differnet levels of signoff to break (some can be broken by the people who manage the game submission process, some need country-level director signoff, some (obviously) need worldwide signoff - this is the same for all console manufacturers, although "worldwide" often means "head office").

So, my advice: worry less about the restrictions, worry more about how you can demonstrate actual concrete progress on the development side.

Sony would need a business model, but that could come internally (my guess is that ChrisM has spent vast amounts of time helping Sony to try and pick one). The situation changes every year, but with all things in games: someone actually going out there and making a working version often achieves what years of negotiation fail to acheive.

Oh, one final thing - there are probably free games coming to PS3 already; I believe there definitely are (one company even publically announced it already, although not many people noticed, and I'm not sure they'll be able to deliver on it). Don't worry too much about the monetization - it may be solved independently of anything you do here - just concentrate on the "doing" part for now.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #74 - Posted 2008-10-02 10:21:06 »

i.e. make something.

If it's even vaguely good, there are people in Sony who can help you make it better.

If it gets really good, there are other people in Sony who can make it happen properly.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #75 - Posted 2008-10-02 11:18:09 »

I agree 100%

However, the 'making something' part is the most difficult because for one thing it costs a lot of money, i.e. something like 9000 Euro (iirc?) for a devkit, and time and effort to do the porting of a JRE + OpenGL binding and adapting the game for the PS3, and all that for something that might not even get released...
So unless there's someone here with loads of free time + money they can throw at something that possibly has no ROI + a good game, at least some sponsoring would be required for a POC.

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #76 - Posted 2008-10-03 10:17:50 »

Can you not get a game working on linux that uses the PS3 controller and is fun?

That could be enough to secure a free devkit.

The official stance is huge restrictions on who gets devkits - but, again, if there's good enough reason, these can be worked around.

As it happens, I believe there's a pile of them sitting in Brighton right now that are feeling lonely Smiley (although they should be shipped to america sometime soon since no-one there is using them any more).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #77 - Posted 2008-10-03 11:41:27 »

Can you not get a game working on linux that uses the PS3 controller and is fun?

If it's just about showing something fun to Sony, then why use PS3 Linux at all for that? At least on a normal PC you have access to everything you need (as opposed to Linux on PS3) to make something fun and performant. PS3 Linux is so restricted that I'm not sure it's even viable for something half decent.

If a single java game comes to PS3, the developer(s) would have to invest a lot of effort to get java/opengl running so who says they (understandably) aren't going to keep this effort to themselves?

I can understand one might get Sony interested to get this single game on PS3 and they might even donate a devkit to make it happen (I think that's how 'Riff: Everyday Shooter' got to PS3), but I think more is needed to get them interested in a low-cost java based devkit to compete with MS' low cost C#/XNA based solution.

Offline kaffiene
« Reply #78 - Posted 2008-10-03 22:25:01 »

Just a status update so you know that I'm not slacking! Smiley

I'm at the moment contacting all the major Java game developers that I'm aware of and asking for some words of support to collate into a document for Sony as per the original concept.  My list of people / companies to contact so far is:

Oddlabs (Tribal Trouble)
Puppy Games / PrinceCC (Ultrathon et al)
Three Rings (Puzzle Pirates, Bang Howdy)
Kingaschi on JavaGaming (Aevum Obscurum)
Jagex (Runescape)
Octipi / Geddon on JavaGaming (PoxNora)
Jadestone  / MrCoder on jME forums (Spirit and Hockey Challenge 2)
Wurm Online / Mojang (Wurm Online)
Sillysoft (LuxDelux)
Blahblahblah (Assuming blah^3 is Adam Martin who's written some Game Programming Gems chapters!)

I'm about halfway through contacting these guys.  If I have no luck with some contacts, I'll post back here to see if anyone knows the relevant people to contact.

If anyone else knows of a good looking Java game project that I've missed in this list, or a game development notary who might be prepared to put in a good word, then please let me know!

Cheers!  And thanks everyone for their input so far. 

Peter.

Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #79 - Posted 2008-10-04 01:59:30 »

http://www.poxnora.com/index.do

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #80 - Posted 2008-10-10 21:34:17 »

If it's just about ...

It's about "what do you need to do to get Sony to listen to you".

Sony is a strange and wonderful unique butterfly of a company. They do not think like you or I do.

An example item is this: gameplay on a PS3 controller is very different to gameplay off it (an example you brought up: I HATE everyday shooter - the nerfed controller input is terrible gamedesign - 8 way on an analog stick). A lot of people want to see + play something on a PS3 controller to see what it feels like. Shrug.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline noblemaster

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Medals: 20
Projects: 10


Age of Conquest makes your day!


« Reply #81 - Posted 2008-10-23 23:58:52 »

Any status updates? How is the proposal coming along?

Offline kaffiene
« Reply #82 - Posted 2008-10-24 01:18:31 »

Any status updates? How is the proposal coming along?

I've got some good feedback from Three Rings (Puzzle Pirates et al), Joshua Slack (JME), Christoph Aschwanden of Noble Master Games (Aevum Obscurum) and some comments I can use from a couple of other developers of note.  I was really hoping to get some comments from Cas because I think that Puppy Games are probably the most obvious fit for a PS3 JVM, but I seem to be having trouble contacting him.  I could put a decent document together now, but I'd really like Cas's input first.

Cheers,

Peter.
Offline noblemaster

JGO Ninja


Medals: 20
Projects: 10


Age of Conquest makes your day!


« Reply #83 - Posted 2008-10-24 02:43:21 »

Seconded!

Cas | Puppy Games would be great to have on PS3!

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 369
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #84 - Posted 2008-10-24 11:52:57 »

Sorry! Am away in Durham, can't read me email.

Basically we'd be all over an opportunity like a rash. We just want that JVM. And, er, a PS3 dev kit obviously Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline kaffiene
« Reply #85 - Posted 2008-11-04 10:24:34 »

Status update: I have enough feedback now - not from everyone I contacted, but certainly enough to highlight the community.

I'm going to start writing up now.  Hopefully the recent news about Sony relaxing PS2 certification bodes well for a change of view regarding the 3rd party marketplace?
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