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  Community Call to Action re: JVM on PS3  (Read 19571 times)
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Offline erikd

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« Reply #30 - Posted 2008-09-30 18:46:27 »

Well, FWIW we already have Ultratron ready to go on XBLA - got it ported to C#. It was that simple to get our stuff running on a console after all. It'd be just peachy to get it on PSN too. In fact being part of a team involved in getting Java onto PS3 would be one of the few roles I'd consider doing fulltime instead of Puppygames or contracting.

Cas Smiley
If that isn't a compelling reason for Sony to go for it, I don't know what is...

Same old same old. A bunch of vaugely worded comments with no actual verifiable content. We've heard the exact same thing for years now and never seen anything solid.

In a couple of years when someone digs this up you'll answer with something equally vauge like "there were tricky issues we couldn't address" and that'll be the last we'll ever hear of it.

I'd love a Java equivilent of XNA, especially if it was possible to write games for the PSN store, but until I see something in my hands that actually works it's all just hype and fluff.

I guess that's just your way of saying that you fully support the idea but are prepared for the disappointment if it doesn't work out like last time, right? Grin Kiss

Offline Orangy Tang

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« Reply #31 - Posted 2008-09-30 18:48:01 »

I guess that's just your way of saying that you fully support the idea but are prepared for the disappointment if it doesn't work out like last time, right? Grin Kiss

Yes. Smiley

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Offline ChrisM

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« Reply #32 - Posted 2008-09-30 19:08:40 »

Same old same old. A bunch of vaugely worded comments with no actual verifiable content. We've heard the exact same thing for years now and never seen anything solid.

In a couple of years when someone digs this up you'll answer with something equally vauge like "there were tricky issues we couldn't address" and that'll be the last we'll ever hear of it.

I'd love a Java equivilent of XNA, especially if it was possible to write games for the PSN store, but until I see something in my hands that actually works it's all just hype and fluff.
So sorry if it's the same old, same old.  Sorry that I can't tell you more due to the NDAs between us and Sony.  You have no idea how frustrating it is to have worked on this stuff and not anything public to share.  More frustrating for me than it is for you to hear the vague comments that I can publicly state.

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Offline ChrisM

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« Reply #33 - Posted 2008-09-30 19:10:48 »

You won't prevent non professional game developers from participating.

No, but games that are not "acceptable" to a platform like PSN, or XBLA for that matter,  won't see distribution either.

Offline DzzD
« Reply #34 - Posted 2008-09-30 19:18:44 »

no way to argue about all those internets "casual game"  that a JVM on PS3 will give access to their user ?

after doing some research, i have trouble to understand, PS3 is java powered, no ? and it seems that using the BD-J with a little "tips" some people run Java program on it ? so what the problem, and why this JVM is not easily accessible ?

http://www.ps3hax.net/showthread.php?t=5751

not the right processor ? that's it ?

Offline erikd

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« Reply #35 - Posted 2008-09-30 20:35:49 »

no way to argue about all those internets "casual game"  that a JVM on PS3 will give access to their user ?

TBH, I don't think java really shines for casual web games. Flash is much better suited for that and the PS3 browser already supports it.
Besides, imho the goal here is selling great games on PSN, for which java really could shine.

Quote
after doing some research, i have trouble to understand, PS3 is java powered, no ? and it seems that using the BD-J with a little "tips" some people run Java program on it ? so what the problem, and why this JVM is not easily accessible ?

I've done some testing with that and actually got something running on it.
The bottom line is that BD-J is what it is; it's meant for some interactivity on bluray discs and isn't really suited for any serious gaming: It doesn't really support the PS3 controllers, from the look of things it's only an interpreter, it seems impossible to get 60fps (could have something to do with having to sync with bluray's framerate?), BD-J is based on a subset of java 1.3, there's no way of accessing the RSX, the list goes on...
I guess it's great for what it intends to do and good enough for simple games that don't require much interactivity (because of the controller problem), but it's certainly not good enough for games that target PSN.

The good part of the story is that much of the work of getting a JVM on PS3 is already been done before. What we just need is a real J2SE implementation, at least Java 1.4, with access to OpenGL and the controllers.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #36 - Posted 2008-09-30 21:21:22 »

No, but games that are not "acceptable" to a platform like PSN, or XBLA for that matter,  won't see distribution either.
I wonder which criteria Sony uses to decide whether a game is "acceptable"...  Sad

If Sun has done something to allow the creation of a JVM for the PS3, is there a vanishingly small chance to get JOGL for the PS3 too (and not only LWJGL)?

Offline erikd

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« Reply #37 - Posted 2008-09-30 22:18:30 »

I wonder which criteria Sony uses to decide whether a game is "acceptable"...  Sad
I don't know but I'd generally just assume that it has to be of a high technical standard with good playability and having suitable content.

Quote
If Sun has done something to allow the creation of a JVM for the PS3, is there a vanishingly small chance to get JOGL for the PS3 too (and not only LWJGL)?
That's all just speculating. I don't see any reason to either rule out JOGL from the possibilities, or to assume that LWJGL would be the only binding.

Offline kaffiene
« Reply #38 - Posted 2008-10-01 01:49:11 »

Grin I agree with you  Grin

Do you expect a PS3 JVM from Sony or from Sun then??

Ultimately I'm hoping to get Sony to agree to partner with Sun to get the job done - that would be my preferred option.  If the political agreement eventuated, then I think the technical issues would not be a great hurdle.
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #39 - Posted 2008-10-01 01:51:25 »

You're right, we need both the authorization and the technical help of Sony because nor an illegal JVM neither a JVM without hardware acceleration would be interesting for us.


Absolutely.  I'm not interested in a hacked back-door solution.  I have a product line that I want to ship using this technology, I'm not interested in something that I can't sell to our investors.

This has to be something that allows proper game releases, or I'm not interested.
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Offline kaffiene
« Reply #40 - Posted 2008-10-01 01:57:29 »

That's not my intention at all, but having professionals on board with the intent of selling their actual games on PSN to get the ball rolling will make it more likely to be interesting to Sony.

What *I* would really like to see is a two pronged approach - a PSN oriented pathway which rivals c#/XNA and the option for a "proper" PS3 game to be produced using Java/OpenGL.

Of course, all of this would have to be subject to Sony's quality control concerns and there's no point I think asking for an enthusiast channel which allows anyone to ship just anything on the console since (a) no-one is allowing anything like that anywhere else and (b) Sony would surely have legitimate concerns about the quality of titles released on their platform.
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #41 - Posted 2008-10-01 02:04:22 »

Sorry for joining in late - I think this is a great idea  Grin

In regards to development, I could probably help out, but my time is somewhat limited. I am definitely willing to put in a couple of hours or more. The question is, are we just talking about it or are we going to get this thing done? The same topics come and go and nothing gets implemented. Unless someone is going for it, this isn't happening. Neither Sony nor Sun will do anything.

There first things to do is to make sure (1) what we do is legal. We (2) need to obtain the development tools for the PS3. I am not so sure how much they cost or how we are going to get them, but it would probably nice to get Sony/Sun to contribute for free? Then (3) we program it...

I'm not just planning to talk about it Shocked)  I'm doing what I stated in the original post : putting forward my proposal and awaiting feedback.  I want community feedback about the strategy before I proceed.

I'm going to wait feedback a little longer and then so long as everyone's still pretty happy with my original proposition (which appears the case so far) then I'll start contacting specific Java developers for their input in terms of supporting text and perhaps images and URLs.  I'll put this in a document for Sony.

I still want to wait just a little longer for any more feedback and I would greatly appreciate nominations of Java developers to highlight for Sony.

As for your point (1) - yes, absolutely, I am *only* interested in a Sony sanctioned pathway to Java distribution on PS2/3.  Anything else is useless to our investors! Shocked)

As for (2)/(3) I'm actually hoping that if Sony/Sun agree that they will take care of that.  What you suggest is a plan B position, but it's not ideal to me.
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #42 - Posted 2008-10-01 02:07:58 »

I wonder which criteria Sony uses to decide whether a game is "acceptable"...  Sad

If Sun has done something to allow the creation of a JVM for the PS3, is there a vanishingly small chance to get JOGL for the PS3 too (and not only LWJGL)?

I would personally like to see the PS3 OpenGL context made available in such a way that allows both JOGL and LWJGL to be implemented. 

I'm hoping for something that is in no way crippled, as I think that ideally Java developers need to be able to run native code using JNI as well.  (Think third party libraries such as Scaleform, or ffmpeg for example)
Offline noblemaster

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« Reply #43 - Posted 2008-10-01 04:16:19 »

Quote
I'm going to wait feedback a little longer and then so long as everyone's still pretty happy with my original proposition (which appears the case so far) then I'll start contacting specific Java developers for their input in terms of supporting text and perhaps images and URLs.  I'll put this in a document for Sony.

I still want to wait just a little longer for any more feedback and I would greatly appreciate nominations of Java developers to highlight for Sony.
you definitely get my support!  Grin

Offline gouessej
« Reply #44 - Posted 2008-10-01 05:26:31 »

I don't know but I'd generally just assume that it has to be of a high technical standard with good playability and having suitable content.
Suitable content? It seems very subjective, it allows Sony to refuse a game for arbitrary reasons, it worries me.

Offline kaffiene
« Reply #45 - Posted 2008-10-01 07:00:01 »

Suitable content? It seems very subjective, it allows Sony to refuse a game for arbitrary reasons, it worries me.

Unfortunately, that *is* the nature of the beast regarding console platforms.  *No* platform will allow you to release any old software for general consumption.  All platform owners exercise control over what software is released on their platforms.  I don't see that changing.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #46 - Posted 2008-10-01 08:42:12 »

Unfortunately, that *is* the nature of the beast regarding console platforms.  *No* platform will allow you to release any old software for general consumption.  All platform owners exercise control over what software is released on their platforms.  I don't see that changing.
If the constraints are too much restrictive, lots of programmers may give up. For example, under XLA, your game can't be bigger than 150 MB. If it is the case for PSN too, it is a real problem. It would be fine if the PS3 JVM contained Java Webstart to give an alternative to PSN when programmers wish to allow users to test a beta or when their games are not "suitable" for PSN.

Offline erikd

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« Reply #47 - Posted 2008-10-01 08:48:50 »

If the constraints are too much restrictive, lots of programmers may give up. For example, under XLA, your game can't be bigger than 150 MB. If it is the case for PSN too, it is a real problem.

On PSN there are games of multiple gigabytes so at least that doesn't seem to be a problem.
But let's not get ahead of things. First there needs to be a JVM + OpenGL before you can start worrying about your game becoming too big or something  Smiley

Offline zammbi

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« Reply #48 - Posted 2008-10-01 08:55:18 »

Surely have my support, though don't think its worth that much  Undecided
If my online rpg game ever comes out, then I would love to support ps3.

Current project - Rename and Sort
Offline gouessej
« Reply #49 - Posted 2008-10-01 10:34:11 »

On PSN there are games of multiple gigabytes so at least that doesn't seem to be a problem.
But let's not get ahead of things. First there needs to be a JVM + OpenGL before you can start worrying about your game becoming too big or something  Smiley
You're right but if a PS3 JVM becomes available but some of us can't use it through PSN, it will be disappointing, it would be better to know that now, Java Webstart could be a suitable alternative for "unsuitable" games.

Offline erikd

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« Reply #50 - Posted 2008-10-01 11:03:52 »

You're right but if a PS3 JVM becomes available but some of us can't use it through PSN, it will be disappointing, it would be better to know that now, Java Webstart could be a suitable alternative for "unsuitable" games.

The reality of things is that PS3 is not an open platform and that you have to play by the rules. That's just part of targetting a console. In many ways that's a good thing because it also means that there's a certain degree of guarantee of quality of the content. Some kind of backdoor like JWS or something is disrupting the console's policy so I wouldn't count on it.

If you want to be free to release whatever you want that might not be acceptable for console release, you should target an open platform like PC.
And then there's also Linux on PS3, but that's not what this thread is about.
AFAIC it's all about having a low cost java based SDK for PS3 to enable us selling games through PSN, playing nicely by Sony's rules.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #51 - Posted 2008-10-01 11:20:16 »

The reality of things is that PS3 is not an open platform and that you have to play by the rules. That's just part of targetting a console. In many ways that's a good thing because it also means that there's a certain degree of guarantee of quality of the content. Some kind of backdoor like JWS or something is disrupting the console's policy so I wouldn't count on it.

If you want to be free to release whatever you want that might not be acceptable for console release, you should target an open platform like PC.
And then there's also Linux on PS3, but that's not what this thread is about.
AFAIC it's all about having a low cost java based SDK for PS3 to enable us selling games through PSN, playing nicely by Sony's rules.
Java Webstart is not a back door, it is a part of Java, maybe Sony should accept Sun's rules. If your game is not ready but you need a lot of people to try a beta version of it, you won't put it onto PSN, Java Webstart could be better fitted for this and you could warn users than it is less stable. What is the problem with it?

Offline erikd

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« Reply #52 - Posted 2008-10-01 11:48:28 »

Java Webstart is not a back door, it is a part of Java, maybe Sony should accept Sun's rules. If your game is not ready but you need a lot of people to try a beta version of it, you won't put it onto PSN, Java Webstart could be better fitted for this and you could warn users than it is less stable. What is the problem with it?

IMHO, Java on PS3 should not be a public JRE for everyone to use just how they see fit. That would go against the nature of a console. That way, there also doesn't need to be a public JWS.

In this case JWS *is* a backdoor to Sony's rules because I'm sure they don't want any unstable alpha quality code (or even malware) accessible to anyone! PS3 should be a nice stable and controlled environment, not some kind of code ghetto.

Beta testing should be done by people that have the SDK and have access to your code. Maybe people with the SDK could be able to somehow use JWS, but certainly not any random PS3 user!

Offline gouessej
« Reply #53 - Posted 2008-10-01 12:02:42 »

Beta testing should be done by people that have the SDK and have access to your code. Maybe people with the SDK could be able to somehow use JWS, but certainly not any random PS3 user!
Alpha testing should be done only by programmers whereas beta testing should be done by "casual" users too. It is not logical then to prevent the use of Java Webstart.

Offline ChrisM

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« Reply #54 - Posted 2008-10-01 12:18:16 »

IMHO, Java on PS3 should not be a public JRE for everyone to use just how they see fit. That would go against the nature of a console. That way, there also doesn't need to be a public JWS.

In this case JWS *is* a backdoor to Sony's rules because I'm sure they don't want any unstable alpha quality code (or even malware) accessible to anyone! PS3 should be a nice stable and controlled environment, not some kind of code ghetto.

Beta testing should be done by people that have the SDK and have access to your code. Maybe people with the SDK could be able to somehow use JWS, but certainly not any random PS3 user!

You just nailed one of Sony's biggest concerns.  The PS3 is a controlled platform.  It is not meant to be open to all.  As for goussej's comments, what you are asking is precisely what Sony, MS or Nintendo won't do, and I agree with them.  Their platforms are multi billion dollar development efforts and the only way to recoup that investment is through software and services.  If you approach this in a manner that suggests you can circumvent Sony's approval/control process, then just stop discussing this now.  And, I also agree that the JRE should not be, and won't be, for general public consumption outside of a formalized program.

If a PS3 VM materializes, you will never get a WebStart application on the PS3.  You must conform to Sony's distribution policy or it's a no go.  And you, me, Sun or anyone else is not going to convince them otherwise.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #55 - Posted 2008-10-01 14:01:24 »

You must conform to Sony's distribution policy or it's a no go.
Must I conform Sony's distribution policy if it leads to a form of censorship? It is not ethical and I'm disappointed to see that you only encourage commercial games programming on PS3.

Offline ChrisM

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« Reply #56 - Posted 2008-10-01 14:43:15 »

Must I conform Sony's distribution policy if it leads to a form of censorship? It is not ethical and I'm disappointed to see that you only encourage commercial games programming on PS3.

It's not censorship if it is a closed platform.  Sony can choose to ship whatever they like on the PS3. So, if you want to ship on the Sony platform then, yes, you have to follow their rules.  Just like XBox, just like Wii, just like iPhone, just like cell phones, just like network TV, just like hollywood movies in their distribution channel, etc.

Why is it not ethical?  They want to put games in their platform that will recoup their investment in building the platform to begin with.  How do you expect them to stay in business if they can't recoup their investment?  What you don't want, on a closed platform, are so many half baked, semi completed or amateur looking games, that it is a barrier for the average consumer.  This is why the control mechanisms are in place.  If you want free and open access, the PC platform is there.

And to be clear, I encourage game programming on the PS3 that has the opportunity to survive commercially.  Do you really think that all of the XNA games being created will be available though XBox Live Marketplace?  Absolutely not.  Get the tools to all developers and the ones who have a chance for commercial success are promoted. 

Offline erikd

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« Reply #57 - Posted 2008-10-01 14:52:31 »

Must I conform Sony's distribution policy if it leads to a form of censorship? It is not ethical and I'm disappointed to see that you only encourage commercial games programming on PS3.

Oh, please.... Don't start this one again...  Undecided

You choose to play by the rules if you choose to target PS3. You don't want your guests pissing in your livingroom in the name of freedom, do you? Of course not, because you set up the rules for coming to your house. Nothing unethical about it.

PS3 is a commercial machine, like it or not.
Another example: If you would have a bakery shop, would you invite people to your shop (or even allow them) that give bread away for free to your potential customers? Of course not, everybody has to make a living, right?

Playing by Sony's rules is just good citizenship if you ask me. Plain and simple.

But lets not go into this any more and keep the thread on topic.

Offline princec

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« Reply #58 - Posted 2008-10-01 16:39:26 »

Anyway... basically the Thing Wot's Needed is someone with a PS3 dev kit license, a lot of time, and OpenJDK. Or, if Sun were to properly sponsor the effort, some Sun-provided PS3 dev kit and an engineer or two from the Sun JDK team. The rest of it -- that is the LWJGL port etc. -- is actually pretty trivial stuff.

Cas Smiley

Offline gouessej
« Reply #59 - Posted 2008-10-01 17:02:04 »

Another example: If you would have a bakery shop, would you invite people to your shop (or even allow them) that give bread away for free to your potential customers?
It is a stupid example as even my father sometimes gave some French pastries for free to his clients in his restaurant, it didn't prevent him from selling other things. Therefore, both commercial and non commercial games can exist on a single platform, even on consoles, not only on PC.

And to be clear, I encourage game programming on the PS3 that has the opportunity to survive commercially.
Does it mean that you don't encourage free open source game programming on the PS3 that has a near-commercial quality? Zymotic and Nexuiz are good on my view even though they are free, why their developers shouldn't be encouraged to port their games onto the PS3 in Java?

It's not censorship if it is a closed platform.  Sony can choose to ship whatever they like on the PS3. So, if you want to ship on the Sony platform then, yes, you have to follow their rules.  Just like XBox, just like Wii, just like iPhone, just like cell phones, just like network TV, just like hollywood movies in their distribution channel, etc.
Cell phones are not so closed as it is already possible to put games into a WAP site or a website to allow customers to download them without requiring the authorization of Apple, Motorola, Nokia...

Why is it not ethical?
Video games are both a part of our culture and an information medium. Preventing people from accessing to information is a form of censorship, it is not ethical. I'm ready to pay for Sony's development kit; if I do it, it will earn some money, it is then not necessary to prevent me from giving games for free because Sony will recoup its investment through the price of the dev kit.

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