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  Incredibuilder  (Read 50836 times)
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Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 55



« Reply #30 - Posted 2008-04-30 17:58:10 »

Quote
- the tool selection window works differently now. When there's only 2 available tools in the level, pressing space bar only will switch to the other tool. In levels that have more than 2 tools the user will have to hold space bar, select the desired tool and release space bar. The 3 or more tools behavior works exactly as explained in my previous post.

You shouldn't change the behaviour of keys during a game. If you want this behaviour, make the spacebar cycle the tools like alt-tab cycles processes in windows. With each space press you select the next tool, but you can also select another desired tool with the mouse before releasing the space bar. This way you have a consistent behaviour in both cases.

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #31 - Posted 2008-04-30 20:04:38 »

Good point, thanks!

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #32 - Posted 2008-05-01 16:41:54 »

Quote
You shouldn't change the behaviour of keys during a game. If you want this behaviour, make the spacebar cycle the tools like alt-tab cycles processes in windows. With each space press you select the next tool, but you can also select another desired tool with the mouse before releasing the space bar. This way you have a consistent behaviour in both cases.

I've uploaded a new version that has this behavior, which is the ability to cycle the tools via space bar press or select the desired tool with the mouse while holding space bar.

Thanks

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Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #33 - Posted 2008-05-01 18:01:19 »

Wow, those are excellent improvements!

My next critique is probably that the push tool is a bit finicky. Sometimes I'll want to push down and it will go sideways, etc.

Also, it would probably make sense to have a rotate tool - seems more intuitive.

See my work:
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Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #34 - Posted 2008-05-02 13:00:31 »

Thanks Demonpants!

Quote
My next critique is probably that the push tool is a bit finicky. Sometimes I'll want to push down and it will go sideways, etc.
Critique? I realize now that when you push down the piece too fast you have the issue. It's an issue I know but is the push down feature really a major feature? I'm wondering. Too me, the drop feature is much more important. I'm just asking.

Quote
Also, it would probably make sense to have a rotate tool - seems more intuitive.
Well, in my opinion clicking left button is better because you can rotate the piece much faster, and this is a game where you need to think fast so switching to another tool to rotate the piece seems to slowdown too much the operation. Unless you mean that using a tool to rotate would be just fun. It might not be intuitive but I keep saying that a good way of letting the player learn the game like a tutorial would solve such an issue.

Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #35 - Posted 2008-05-02 23:35:08 »

Yeah, I think the rotate tool would be a lot more fun, and would further separate your game from Tetris. I've had the most fun with your game while scrambling to cut up blocks when I need to quickly switch to the slider tool for the current descending block. Frantically switching between tools is where the magic is, I think.

As for the push down, it may have to do with me going too fast, but it also felt like the functionality was just a bit off. Like if I'm mostly above the block but still to the side only a little bit, it would still get pushed to the side when I wanted it to go downward. You should just make it so that if your mouse is above the top half of the block it goes down, and you're below you push it. Of course experiment with that. Also, maybe a quick flick downward with the mouse (when above the block), should send it immediately to the bottom or something like that.

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #36 - Posted 2008-05-05 16:23:46 »

Quote
Yeah, I think the rotate tool would be a lot more fun, and would further separate your game from Tetris.
Hum...I'm not that convinced that using a tool to rotate the piece would be good. As I wanted to explain, the piece is already falling down fast enough. I'll keep the rotate feature as is for now and keep thinking about that. And, why do I need to separate my game from Tetris? Any game these days is created from a know game or genre right?

Quote
As for the push down, it may have to do with me going too fast, but it also felt like the functionality was just a bit off.
I've fixed that. It will be part of the next version.

Quote
Also, maybe a quick flick downward with the mouse (when above the block), should send it immediately to the bottom or something like that.
That is not intuitive to me and would be really hard to implement well.

Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #37 - Posted 2008-05-06 07:29:07 »

Well I'm looking forward to trying out the next version, then.

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #38 - Posted 2008-07-17 13:37:47 »

Hello,

it's been quite a while since the last version of Incredibuilder. There's a new version that contains a lot of changes/enhancements:

    * 2 tutorial levels
    * sounds
    * no more concept of money. It's been replaced by a limited time to build the construction.
    * the existing levels were changed to adjust to the game play changes.
    * game menu
    * the next pieces are now displayed half the size
    * the plan now shows the construction background.
    * the "level completed" and "level failed" events now look better
    * some bug fixes

There's 2 known bugs in this version:
* during the tutorials most of the sounds are shut off by the simulated typing sounds. It seems to be a Slick bug but I'll have to further investigate that.
* In tutorial 2 when you have to paste the cut blocks in some circumstances if you don't paste them at the expected location then they will disappear forever when you retry the step.

If you face these bugs while playing please report them to me with details.

Also, I'd like to know the followings from you:
* are the tutorials easy to understand. Are they too long?
* is the game fun with the game play changes?
* are the levels too hard, too easy, just ok?

Thanks for playing and giving me your feedback!  Smiley

Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 212
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #39 - Posted 2008-07-20 18:18:30 »

Played through the tutorials and a couple of levels.

The tutorials are easy to understand and explain the game well. They feel just about perfect in terms of length. I knew how to play afterwards, so thats got to be good Smiley

The levels I played were very easy, I didn't see a way to fail to be honest. The take a while to complete, maybe a bit too long for something that is presumably for casual players. I need quick fixes! Smiley

The primary problem I'm having with the game at the moment is it's not fun for me to play. I stopped playing only because I wasn't interested to see what comes next. The drop button and bin feel really clunky as a control scheme. Maybe keyboard control would be better for this game?

It needs more surprises, combos, explosions - ok, maybe not, but you know what I mean. Eye candy and feedback from operations. Make the levels into pictures or something also - that'd be cool Smiley

Kev

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #40 - Posted 2008-07-20 23:59:50 »

Quote
The levels I played were very easy, I didn't see a way to fail to be honest.
OK, I'll reduce the time then.

Quote
The take a while to complete, maybe a bit too long for something that is presumably for casual players. I need quick fixes!
You may be right. I'll try to make them shorter.

Quote
The primary problem I'm having with the game at the moment is it's not fun for me to play.
Is it because it's too easy or what?

Quote
It needs more surprises, combos, explosions - ok, maybe not, but you know what I mean.
That is already plan to include all of that in the subsequent levels.

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #41 - Posted 2008-07-21 01:33:55 »

I've uploaded a new version that should improves the points kev mentionned:
- levels should be much more challenging
- levels are shorter to play due to reduced allowed time and smaller constructions to build
- level previews have been removed because it was too ennoying to regenerate them each time a level is modified.

Anyone wants to test this new version?

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #42 - Posted 2008-07-21 16:39:28 »

Another new version is there. The first level has a surprise... Smiley

Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 212
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #43 - Posted 2008-07-21 18:12:34 »

Right, now thats odd - now I can't complete the first level cause I keep getting blue blocks that I have to bin. Sad Can I have a skip tutorial button also Smiley

Found a couple of bugs:

- You can rotate the blocks so that they are outside of the well
- You can cut blocks that are not connected (this might not be a bug, but does some very odd things Smiley)

Kev

Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 212
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #44 - Posted 2008-07-21 20:13:20 »

Oh, um, your website's slogan:

'Take a ride of full pleasure'

could by a native english speaker (especially someone from the UK) be interpreted in a non-games related way. I'd really consider changing it Wink

Kev

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #45 - Posted 2008-07-21 21:04:01 »

Quote
Right, now thats odd - now I can't complete the first level cause I keep getting blue blocks that I have to bin.
Yes, unrelated pieces are part of the challenge now. Maybe there's not enough time? Normally the blue pieces will apprear 25% of the time. Is it what happens? If not then it's a bug.

Quote
Can I have a skip tutorial button also
Just go to the level you want. Nothing forces you to start with a tutorial. Is it unclear the way you select the level?

Also, I asked you previously what do you find that is not fun? Or why in your opinion it's not fun?

Quote
- You can rotate the blocks so that they are outside of the well
Yes that's an old known bug, which I've never taken the time to fix. But it doesn't really hurt does it?

Quote
- You can cut blocks that are not connected (this might not be a bug, but does some very odd things Smiley)
That's not a bug; it allows more flexibility to cut blocks. Maybe I should reconsider this in terms of game play?

Quote
could by a native english speaker (especially someone from the UK) be interpreted in a non-games related way. I'd really consider changing it
Ok thanks for the advice, I'll change it then.  Smiley

Thanks a lot Kev for all the feedback. That's really appreciated.  Smiley If only others could do the same  Undecided

Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 212
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #46 - Posted 2008-07-21 21:20:06 »

Quote
Also, I asked you previously what do you find that is not fun? Or why in your opinion it's not fun?

Wish I could tell you, it'd be a useful thing to be able to pin point. I just found myself finishing play because I didn't want to go - rather than being beaten, or running out real life time, or anything.

From what I've read in games books perception of fun quite often comes down to providing just enough challenge and significant psychological reward. So either I'm not finding it a challenge (thats different to it being plain hard) and/or I'm not getting enough feedback from the game to give me a buzz - hence the need for explosions Wink

As to other's people feedback, meh, people will comment eventually Smiley

Kev

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #47 - Posted 2008-07-21 21:36:11 »

OK, I've just played level 3, which is the first non tutorial level  Wink, and I finished it with 5 seconds left. I'm not the best video game player compared to let say teenagers for reflexes and quick reactions so to me it's doable but is it too hard? That's a question.

About the fun aspect, well thanks anyway but to be honest that doesn't really help me. Anyway, I don't want to consider your opinion only. Maybe you don't really like action puzzles after all. If look at games of type "match 3 same colors", they're very repetitive but apparently people love this type of game. In my game, the gameplay is not that repetitive. And for the other gameplay aspects I plan to implement, it will be for sure not repetitive.

You said in your previous post that you can't finish level 3 so I assume that you have challenge then?  Huh I have a hard time understanding you now.

About game rewards I guess that the score by itself isn't sufficient for you?

Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 212
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #48 - Posted 2008-07-21 21:51:32 »

Quote
You said in your previous post that you can't finish level 3 so I assume that you have challenge then?  Huh I have a hard time understanding you now.

Fair enough. To me a challenge is something I feel like I could do, but have just missed. Or I feel like I screwed up during the level and could do better this time. When playing level 3 I didn't feel like that, I felt like it wasn't possible partly because it just seemed way too tight but a bit because the controls seemed to make it harder.

Quote
About game rewards I guess that the score by itself isn't sufficient for you?

I think you're missing the point here. Score is a way tracking progress, it's not a reward for very long. The sort of thing that makes it fun are "cool" things happening - things that make you smile or buzz just a little bit. Visual effects often do this, but also combo are a good example. When you get a match-3 just right you get a nice long running combo and thats sorta lifts the play for a moment and gives you something to continue for - rewards.

But you're right, it's just my opinion. I won't try again until you're ready ok Smiley

Kev

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #49 - Posted 2008-08-06 23:45:57 »

I've uploaded a new version of Incredibuilder which include the following:

    * a new tool, the hammer, is used to brake blocks to help you fit pieces in the construction
    * the second tutorial was modified to make use of the hammer tool
    * the first real level, which is level 3, now use the hammer instead of the cutter tool
    * the new tutorial, which is the 3rd one, demonstrate the use of the cutter tool
    * the last level make use of the cutter tool

Offline DragonsRage

Senior Newbie





« Reply #50 - Posted 2008-08-07 00:22:07 »

Very cool.  Grin

I have a wide screen laptop so in full screen mode the game looked kind of stretched but still visually appealing. The hammer tool looks nice and was a big help for me since I make so many mistakes.

Secrets and lies

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Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #51 - Posted 2008-08-07 13:12:20 »

Cool! Someone that appreciate my game!  Cheesy I was somewhat desperate with all the negative feedback from Kev. The fact that very few people give feedback is discouraging some days.

Thanks!

Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #52 - Posted 2008-08-16 06:49:25 »

Cool! Someone that appreciate my game!  Cheesy I was somewhat desperate with all the negative feedback from Kev. The fact that very few people give feedback is discouraging some days.

Thanks!
I think your game is very original, colorfully executed, has tight game mechanics, and with a bit more polish can be a very good game.

But I get really bored with games like this (and Tetris, etc.)  Tongue It's just me, it's not you. And Kev has a lot of wisdom and is a perfectionist and also one of the most experienced and talented people on this forum. You should probably just be happy he's giving you pointers.  Smiley

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 16
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #53 - Posted 2008-08-16 08:06:50 »

I hope you don't just interpret this as negative feedback:


1) There are FOUR ways of input, each of which does a separate thing; mouse movement (to move blocks.. why?), keyboard control (to select tool), mouse clicking (to rotate, and to use tools), and a button to click (to drop a piece). This is at least two ways too many.

Instead, I suggest the following scheme:

Keyboard control to move, rotate and drop blocks, just like in tetris. This totally removes the need for the move tool, and lets the player move the active piece in any way he or she wishes.
Big visibile buttons representing all tools available in the level. Once clicked, the user simply clicks to use the active tool.

If your argument for having the move tool is that it makes the game harder, then I disagree, it simply makes the game more annoying and involved without giving more control. You do not make games harder by making them harder to control.

2) Having to look at the small outline and try to figure out what piece you need to place where while under a time limit is a frustrating experience. Instead, consider moving the outline to be an actual outline on the game area. This will make it much more clear what you need to do.

3) Random blocks that can't be used in any positive way and have to be removed (ie the blue blocks on level 3) are annoying.

Play Minecraft!
Offline Corvinex

Senior Devvie


Projects: 1


Work Hard, Go Pro.


« Reply #54 - Posted 2008-08-16 10:48:58 »

I agree. I never finished one level, and then I just totally gave up. Those control changes would help.

"Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life."
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Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #55 - Posted 2008-08-16 16:18:59 »

Or conversely go all mouse and use strokes to control tool changes and the like.

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline DragonsRage

Senior Newbie





« Reply #56 - Posted 2008-08-16 17:13:19 »

3) Random blocks that can't be used in any positive way and have to be removed (ie the blue blocks on level 3) are annoying.

Annoying and hard often go hand in hand in games, imagine a game where you have to click a circle, if the circle takes half the screen and appears in the same place it is far to easy and boring. It is important to add obstacles that add difficulty to a game, and difficulty is going to annoy the player. It is also important to integrate those obstacles with game functions, like an in game tool, in order to allow for diversity in the game rather than mundane clicking accomplishing the same thing. I think the blue blocks add to the game play because they add a new challenge and change into the game.

2) Having to look at the small outline and try to figure out what piece you need to place where while under a time limit is a frustrating experience. Instead, consider moving the outline to be an actual outline on the game area. This will make it much more clear what you need to do.

3) Random blocks that can't be used in any positive way and have to be removed (ie the blue blocks on level 3) are annoying.

Adding the outline in the actual game area is a good idea and would make the game easier to play. Or maybe changing the color of the blocks on the game area, like a shadow might be more stylistic I dunno.

I strongly agree with settling on one form of input and I think keyboard controls would be easiest, but mouse controls would be more fun for the player. Or add both and let the player choose.

Secrets and lies

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Offline viwoj

Senior Newbie





« Reply #57 - Posted 2008-08-18 07:38:41 »

Nice work ....

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #58 - Posted 2008-08-19 17:30:20 »

Hey guys, thanks for the comments.

Quote
I think your game is very original, colorfully executed, has tight game mechanics, and with a bit more polish can be a very good game.
Thanks! You say more polish is needed. What do you mean exactly?

About the input issues that people are complaining I think I'll have to think more about that. I understand that this can make the game too complex for some people. I think that Markus's suggestion is a good one and everybody that replied to his post seemed to agree. But for keyboard input I'm wondering what's the best combination? Arrow keys or WSAD? The arrows seem much more intuitive but on the other hand WSAD seem a more comfortable position.

Quote
Big visibile buttons representing all tools available in the level. Once clicked, the user simply clicks to use the active tool.
Markus, do you mean that those buttons would always be shown and available to click? This would eliminate the space bar then.

Quote
2) Having to look at the small outline and try to figure out what piece you need to place where while under a time limit is a frustrating experience. Instead, consider moving the outline to be an actual outline on the game area. This will make it much more clear what you need to do.
I never though this would be frustrating. I might consider moving the plan to the game area but it seems a lot of annoying work to do.  Sad

Quote
3) Random blocks that can't be used in any positive way and have to be removed (ie the blue blocks on level 3) are annoying.
Do you like challenges?  Smiley It simply add a new type of challenge.

About the difficulty of levels I agree with that. It's difficult to me to know what's the correct level of difficulty. I'm able to complete the levels but maybe I'm just to used to it? I'll change them with much more simple plans.

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #59 - Posted 2008-08-24 14:17:19 »

Hi,

I've uploaded a new version of the game. I simply updated the 2 non tutorial levels to make them more easier to play. Could you try them please and give me your feedback please?

When I'll more time I'll change the control scheme as I discussed in my previous post.

Thanks

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