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  Anyone besides me really dislike Eclipse?  (Read 12157 times)
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Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


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Monkey for a head


« Reply #30 - Posted 2007-08-01 11:43:42 »

Well, "it is for newbies?!", what i think, is a bit different : newbies really requiere code completion, auto-correction, as if they have someone near to them to help...,  but if you are not a newbie you will dont need those things....at least it will only help in few case. 

No, newbies require the absolute minimum amount of interference between them and the compiler, and the runtime. Which is what JCreator provides. They need to do things by hand, manually - such as setting up compiler flags and explicitly typing everything out. Once once they've done that for a decent amount of time is it a good idea to move up to something more advanced like Eclipse which can automate some of the more common operations.

Starting with something simple and unintrusive gives newbies a better grasp of the low level goings on, and what exactly is required. Otherwise they'll end up treating the fancier features of Eclipse/etc. as magic without a proper understanding of what's actually going on. And if/when those features go wrong or behave unexpectedly they won't have a clue what to do because they don't know how to do it manually.

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Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #31 - Posted 2007-08-01 11:53:24 »

lol, well its more of a reduction of keystrokes than anything. But I may have over stated the feature, it's not quite total auto correction like a single button click, but it shows you which projects, packages and classes have errors, where they are and offers auto fix per error (with a choice when there are possibilities). The 1-button auto fix is secretly planned for release in the near future (j/k)

Well since you're trying it here's a few features to look out for and learn the hotkeys:
 - re factoring (Alt+Shift+R)
 - automatic imports (Ctrl+Shift+o)
 - automatic formatting (Ctrl+Shift+F)

hmm, i really have to disagree with you with your statement that things like codecompletion and stuff are for newbies. It isnt in there for nothing, it allows you to work faster and more efficient.
I think he was joking

No, newbies require the absolute minimum amount of interference between them and the compiler, and the runtime. Which is what JCreator provides. They need to do things by hand, manually - such as setting up compiler flags and explicitly typing everything out. Once once they've done that for a decent amount of time is it a good idea to move up to something more advanced like Eclipse which can automate some of the more common operations.

Starting with something simple and unintrusive gives newbies a better grasp of the low level goings on, and what exactly is required. Otherwise they'll end up treating the fancier features of Eclipse/etc. as magic without a proper understanding of what's actually going on. And if/when those features go wrong or behave unexpectedly they won't have a clue what to do because they don't know how to do it manually.
I'm on both sides of the fence there; I agree with you completely that people need to be aware of compiler flags, but if anything a true newbie needs to learn to program and can worry about other stuff after. I mean they want to learn to program, and I instead show them _X_, _Y_ and _Z_ when I can instead teach them _Z_ and have them aware of _X_ and _Y_ (if you know what I mean)

Offline DzzD
« Reply #32 - Posted 2007-08-01 11:56:23 »

hmm, i really have to disagree with you with your statement that things like codecompletion and stuff are for newbies. It isnt in there for nothing, it allows you to work faster and more efficient.

if your "program conception" is well done then you will only write few line of source code at once, you will only lose a little time without code completion. I dont use it, but, anyway, I agree that it is a cool stuff.

Nothing make me more happy than when i wrote undred line of source code and compil without errors and run it without problem.

I dislike making a code and than debug because i did not took any attention of what I did when I was writing it. just try to be "smarter" and auto-correction and code-completion wont help you anymore.


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Online Riven
« League of Dukes »

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Hand over your head.


« Reply #33 - Posted 2007-08-01 12:04:32 »

What about the realtime-compilation of your code. You never have to wait for it, you can Run your application 1 second after you made the last change.

When I see those java-tutorial-videos where programmers show what they do, and I see them waiting at least 10 seconds before they can view their changes, I think that's one of the big timewasters. Further, seeing the errors underlined in runtime saves you from a few failing compilations.

Believe me, every once in a while, I get totally fed up with 'bloated' Eclipse, and look for an alternative, but every time I come back emptyhanded, and kinda fall in love again with Eclipse.

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Offline DzzD
« Reply #34 - Posted 2007-08-01 12:14:10 »

Hi riven,

I am just the "the devil's lawyer"  Wink in french it means that i said the opposite of the discussion.

Online Riven
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Hand over your head.


« Reply #35 - Posted 2007-08-01 12:20:15 »

In that case, Eclipse eats RAM like there is no tomorrow, and the compiler sometimes makes the weirdest mistakes.

Hm... that's about it, nothing else that really bothers me. Smiley

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Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #36 - Posted 2007-08-01 12:26:58 »

Well it does require that you have at least 256MB or RAM (or was that due to the Together plugin); but once you've got a decent amount of RAM it's not a problem.

And how does Eclipse manage to compile so quickly? I'm guessing it only saves the changes to the byte code!

Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #37 - Posted 2007-08-01 17:56:34 »

I think he ment newbies need them the most, not that others wouldn't need them.

either way I disagree, newbies don't benefit from code completion that much, the first 1/2 year you should make them dwell on the javadocs beyond syntax errors a lot of problems arise from simply not reading the javadocs well.there goal is to learn the language not to write code as quickly as possible.


hmm I wouldn't know about memory, all my computers that I work with have 2 GB and up.

oh and if your running eclipse under ubuntu, change the jvm to one of sun's (needs to be done in the in some file, --update-alternatives doesn't 'simply' work.)

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline CheekyRipley

Junior Member


Projects: 1



« Reply #38 - Posted 2007-08-01 18:43:44 »

I use Eclipse, and it usually causes me to shout the "C" word a few times each hour - usually because the autocomplete is a pain in the arse. Someone should plonk the developers down in front of a copy of Visual Studio and show them how it's done Smiley

Having said that, Eclipse is the best of the bunch. A not very good bunch - why are Java IDEs so poor?

I've just tried JCreator, and as an editor it's really nice - although it's a bit thick at picking up new changes in other files. The uninstaller was ran after I found a bug where the debugger would file lock the project's jar file; causing me to shut down and restart each time.

Perhaps Eclipse is trying to be all things to all men. I keep meaning to try one of these programmer's editor applications and hook it up to javac, jar and proguard, and see if I can get the best of all worlds....

Any recommendations for such a beast? Preferably native code though - Java IDEs etc eat up too much memory and are generally too slow for my liking.

Mark Ripley<br />Cheeky
Offline DzzD
« Reply #39 - Posted 2007-08-01 20:11:05 »

well configured, Jcreator is really nice and simple to use. I promess  Wink

just cut your big project into multiple JCreator projects and put all your JCreator projects into a single workspace.

In project propertie set the javadoc you need to use (java + librarie you used) in the editor, and the requiered library (your other project path or jar).

when you have a change to make in your big project just change the JCreator project wich is impacted, compil than launch the main class of your big project.

If you want to create a project from an existing folder with many different package, just use "refresh from local" on the jcreator project after having copied all source files folder in a new jcreator project source directory.

NB: proguard is an excellent software, in my case i prefer using it in command line mode (for example: something like makerelease.bat for window)  rather than with the GUI, it is much faster , so I can create a compacted released jar by a simple double ciick. Finally, making  a change in a project and export a final release only requiere three step, modifing files, compile projects impacted, and finaly if you want to make a release click makerekease.bat that will compact and if needed join all your jar in a single one.

sorry... Lips Sealed I love JCreator  Wink

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Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #40 - Posted 2007-08-01 22:41:22 »

I use Eclipse, and it usually causes me to shout the "C" word a few times each hour - usually because the autocomplete is a pain in the arse. Someone should plonk the developers down in front of a copy of Visual Studio and show them how it's done Smiley
hmm visual studio failed to impress me, regarding code completion in eclipse, your the first to complain but perhaps I don't 'get around' enough. Did you try to configure it to your needs?
Having said that, Eclipse is the best of the bunch. A not very good bunch - why are Java IDEs so poor?

I've just tried JCreator, and as an editor it's really nice - although it's a bit thick at picking up new changes in other files. The uninstaller was ran after I found a bug where the debugger would file lock the project's jar file; causing me to shut down and restart each time.

Perhaps Eclipse is trying to be all things to all men. I keep meaning to try one of these programmer's editor applications and hook it up to javac, jar and proguard, and see if I can get the best of all worlds....

Any recommendations for such a beast? Preferably native code though - Java IDEs etc eat up too much memory and are generally too slow for my liking.
Don't know about that browers seem to top any ide I've had when it came memory requirements. If you only want some javac, jar and proguard support I can see why you'd think eclipse or any java ide is heavy as your hardly useing it at all if you only have those requirements for an ide.

It sounds like you want to program in vim.

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #41 - Posted 2007-08-01 23:57:30 »

Broken projects and incompatible add on modules not working after update.

I experienced none of that.
Offline DzzD
« Reply #42 - Posted 2007-08-02 01:19:36 »

I dont know a lot about eclipse but a thing that afraid me is : using Eclipse and all his features too much, will maybe  make the project falling in something I will call "VisualBasic trap", wich mean that you will only be able to make modification on it using Eclipse and you wont be able to switch to another IDE if needed.

So the project wont be a java project anymore but an Eclipse project, and so will become dependent uppon Eclipse. do i am completly wrong ?

for me, a java project is a source directory (usually named 'src') with subfolder mirroring them respective package and at compile time it is linked to external libraries.

a question just came to me, what sun use to write JDK Api, Eclipse ?


Online princec

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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #43 - Posted 2007-08-02 01:52:04 »

Don't worry, Eclipse is first and foremost a pure Java IDE. All metadata it stores is separate from the Java source you write. All the clever bits in Eclipse are to do with how it actually reads and understands your code and helps you edit it.

Cas Smiley

Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #44 - Posted 2007-08-02 01:56:31 »

I dont know a lot about eclipse but a thing that afraid me is : using Eclipse and all his features too much, will maybe  make the project falling in something I will call "VisualBasic trap", wich mean that you will only be able to make modification on it using Eclipse and you wont be able to switch to another IDE if needed.

So the project wont be a java project anymore but an Eclipse project, and so will become dependent uppon Eclipse. do i am completly wrong ?

for me, a java project is a source directory (usually named 'src') with subfolder mirroring them respective package and at compile time it is linked to external libraries.
That will not happen; all of my Java projects can export as source and Eclipse is compatible with .ANT build files too (which allow makefile style building).

a question just came to me, what sun use to write JDK Api, Eclipse ?
They most likely use their own IDE - NetBeans is a likely candidate Smiley Star Office was created by Sun for Sun employees so that they did not have to fork out so much on Office!

Offline DzzD
« Reply #45 - Posted 2007-08-02 02:50:00 »

just for fun, java 1.6 api compiled with JCreator  Wink, was a bit hard... on my 1.6 Ghz 768MB ram can't compil the whole at once javac said system outof ressource  Undecided , need to do it folder by folder.... but can be done, anyways just for fun....




Offline Abuse

JGO Coder


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falling into the abyss of reality


« Reply #46 - Posted 2007-08-02 02:55:59 »

Does jcreator support code navigation, java searches, and refactoring?

Last time I used it, it was little more than a text editor (with syntax highlighting and light-weight project structuring support)

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Offline DzzD
« Reply #47 - Posted 2007-08-02 03:40:37 »

Does jcreator support code navigation, java searches, and refactoring?
I think so for java search and refactoring but what do you mean by code navigation?

Last time I used it, it was little more than a text editor (with syntax highlighting and light-weight project structuring support)
hum... it is still just a little more than that  Wink, there is still some lack of features on it, but it is so easy to use....

Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #48 - Posted 2007-08-02 04:02:06 »

Officially netbeans should be used but in practice employees are free to use what they want, if I remember what jeff said right.

I use maven2 so running it in eclipse intellij or netbeans should be easy. I heared netbeans has build-in support, haven't tried.

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #49 - Posted 2007-08-02 05:49:32 »


They most likely use their own IDE - NetBeans is a likely candidate Smiley Star Office was created by Sun for Sun employees so that they did not have to fork out so much on Office!

Sun bought Star Office, they didn't write it.
Offline ravenger

Senior Newbie





« Reply #50 - Posted 2007-08-02 09:59:30 »

Like I said, try IntelliJ and love it Wink
Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 38



« Reply #51 - Posted 2007-08-02 10:38:07 »

I use Eclipse, and it usually causes me to shout the "C" word a few times each hour - usually because the autocomplete is a pain in the arse. Someone should plonk the developers down in front of a copy of Visual Studio and show them how it's done Smiley
I hope this is a joke. I am a J2EE and ASP.NET developer and I can assure you, that Visual Studio is a bug pested featureless IDE placebo. Code navigation is nearly nonexistent, Refactorings are poor, code completion is incomplete, versioning control support for SVN is a joke, it likes to freeze and eats memory like I eat chocolate (actually I sniff up chocolate). Basically I think it's unusable without the resharper plugin, at least if you are used to the comfort of java IDEs.

Having said that, Eclipse is the best of the bunch. A not very good bunch - why are Java IDEs so poor?
I don't know on what experience you base this statement, but I think java IDEs are quite good and powerful. Maybe the power unfolds not until you have  a large project with multiple develpers and daily refactoring needs.

Java IDEs etc eat up too much memory and are generally too slow for my liking.
Buy a faster PC Smiley Sorry, just joking.

Unfortunately IDEs for all languages tend to eat up memory. Take for example Visual Studio: it's no problem for VS eating up 1.5G of ram, just for not autoclosing opened editor tabs. Regarding speed: I think todays java-IDEs are fast enough and not noticable slower than other multi-tab editors. There are occasionally freezes with most of them, which result IMHO from garbage collection or indexing of new sources. The first can be overcome by proper heap space and maybe garbage collection settings while the second opens up features, normal editors are not capable of and are desperately needed in larger projects.

Any recommendations for such a beast? Preferably native code though
Take a look at Intellij Idea. It's not native, but it's quite fast and has some outstanding productivity improvement features. But it's commercial and you need to _really_ try it out. I use it for 5 years now and I consistently found useful features by mistyping key strokes per accident til last year Wink

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 38



« Reply #52 - Posted 2007-08-02 10:39:16 »

I experienced none of that.
Lucky you Smiley

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #53 - Posted 2007-08-02 10:43:45 »

I think so for java search and refactoring but what do you mean by code navigation?
hum... it is still just a little more than that  Wink, there is still some lack of features on it, but it is so easy to use....
JCreator does not support refactoring or code navigation.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #54 - Posted 2007-08-02 10:48:00 »

well configured, Jcreator is really nice and simple to use. I promess  Wink

just cut your big project into multiple JCreator projects and put all your JCreator projects into a single workspace.

In project propertie set the javadoc you need to use (java + librarie you used) in the editor, and the requiered library (your other project path or jar).

when you have a change to make in your big project just change the JCreator project wich is impacted, compil than launch the main class of your big project.

Ick, an error prone, tedious and manual process. Why should I have to do that when I can get it done automatically for me? Any manual process *will* go wrong at some point, and you'll end up running an out of date version or unsyncronised version (and probably end up wondering why that bug still isn't fixed). Why take the risk when getting a tool to do it automatically means it goes right 100% of the time?

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline DzzD
« Reply #55 - Posted 2007-08-02 11:56:44 »

Why take the risk when getting a tool to do it automatically means it goes right 100% of the time?

hum... "...do it automatically.. " what about the path you want to use ? the libraries version you need ? the jdk you want to compil with ?? the target JRE ?!  how that can it be guessed automatically ?

Offline DzzD
« Reply #56 - Posted 2007-08-02 12:04:46 »

maybe you are looking for the "SpeakToCode plugin of Eclipse that does all the things for you ? I mean no need of keyboard, just explain it and it will make the program for you  Wink , , just speak loudly "I WANT TO MAKE A FPS GAME IN 3D" , well installed this plugin works fine...  Wink

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #57 - Posted 2007-08-02 12:14:51 »

hum... "...do it automatically.. " what about the path you want to use ? the libraries version you need ? the jdk you want to compil with ?? the target JRE ?!  how that can it be guessed automatically ?

You've missed my point. You're describing how you splice up your code into multiple projects so you can manually recompile a subset instead of the whole thing before launching the app. But with eclipse it automatically recompiles only the files that need changing, without needing to impose arbitrary project divisions on your source code, and without the possibility of it going wrong due to being done manually. You can't argue that your hacky JCreator way is simpler to use than that. Tongue

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline DzzD
« Reply #58 - Posted 2007-08-02 12:24:24 »

okies,

but for sure at least JCreator should give me a free license with all the publicity I made for them   Smiley

Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #59 - Posted 2007-08-02 12:26:15 »

:Dlol

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