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  Anyone besides me really dislike Eclipse?  (Read 12388 times)
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Offline appel

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« Posted 2007-07-30 14:11:42 »

Ok, it's a love/hate relationship. I love programming in Eclipse, but when it comes to updating the editor it's a total nightmare.

How is it that everytime a new Eclipse is released I have to download the whole editor, install it separately from my existing one, and then re-install all the addons I'm using, and also setup all my projects again. If I persist on using ONE version older (3.3.1 instead of 3.3.2) then I hit a wall regarding adding new addons, since most current addons require the newest version of Eclipse.

I'm really starting to get annoyed by Eclipse. I have 3 installs of it on my disk, all pretty much messed up. Now I have to upgrade to the newest version!

Is there no way to upgrade my existing Eclipse? I've tried installing (unzipping) of existing installations but everything went totally fubar.

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Offline Orangy Tang

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« Reply #1 - Posted 2007-07-30 14:23:41 »

Is there no way to upgrade my existing Eclipse? I've tried installing (unzipping) of existing installations but everything went totally fubar.
IIRC the docs explicityly say not to do this because it causes all sorts of trouble.

Yeah, I also find upgrading Eclipse versions a bit of a pain, but usually I only tend to do it once a year at most so it's hardly a major problem. I was starting to get tired of Eclipse, but after spending a weekend tinkering with Visual Studio and C# and being constantly annoyed by it's stupid behaviour and dodgy code completion I'm back to loving Eclipse again. Grin

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Offline appel

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2007-07-30 14:27:55 »

What about NetBeans? Is the upgrade-curve so steep there?

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Offline ravenger

Senior Newbie





« Reply #3 - Posted 2007-07-30 14:37:19 »

if you program in unix environment, you could try IntelliJ for free. If you use windows, then you have to pay for it Tongue, but its better than eclipse.

Updating eclipse isnt that hard tho, you could use the internal upgrade tool (Help --> Software Updates --> Find and Install)
Offline appel

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« Reply #4 - Posted 2007-07-30 14:54:02 »

Updating eclipse isnt that hard tho, you could use the internal upgrade tool (Help --> Software Updates --> Find and Install)

Only for addons, and patches to Eclipse, not when you have to jump a version, like 3.2.2 -> 3.3.0

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Offline cylab

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« Reply #5 - Posted 2007-07-30 15:11:14 »

What about NetBeans? Is the upgrade-curve so steep there?
It's not much different I fear. Especially the upcoming 6.0 version seem to steer into an upgrade nightmare, since they changed the plugin-mechanisms and the auto update. I hope 'til the final release there will be a migration assistent.

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline fletchergames

Senior Member





« Reply #6 - Posted 2007-07-30 17:39:25 »

I don't use any add-ons, so it's not a problem.  The only add-on I ever wanted to use was the profiler, which I couldn't get to get work.  I profiled with java.exe instead (which didn't help anyways).

I guess the secret is not to use any add-ons.
Space Xscape
Guest
« Reply #7 - Posted 2007-07-30 20:03:23 »

Yes, i don't like Eclipses update procedure at all. JCreator has the best update procedure imo. Just install the new version over the excisting one and your done. No need to uninstall anything. Thats why i use it.
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #8 - Posted 2007-07-30 23:31:12 »

It's not much different I fear. Especially the upcoming 6.0 version seem to steer into an upgrade nightmare, since they changed the plugin-mechanisms and the auto update. I hope 'til the final release there will be a migration assistent.

I updated from Netbeans 5 to 6 with no issues at all.  I've grabbed several milestone releases as well, all with no issues.

What upgrade problems are you talking about?
Offline Kova

Senior Member





« Reply #9 - Posted 2007-07-31 00:56:39 »

Only for addons, and patches to Eclipse, not when you have to jump a version, like 3.2.2 -> 3.3.0

hmm, I saw an option to upgrade to new versions like this... it's turned off by default, look it up
I know it's definitely mentioned in subclipse upgrade instructions as I saw it and upgradet subclipse from 1.2 to 1.4 like that.
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Offline cylab

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« Reply #10 - Posted 2007-07-31 07:35:19 »

What upgrade problems are you talking about?

Broken projects and incompatible add on modules not working after update.

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #11 - Posted 2007-07-31 08:52:33 »

Broken projects and incompatible add on modules not working after update.
Is there any compelling reason to upgrade? Our uni upgrades one a year for that reason, and so do render farms; unless it's a bug fix then continue using your IDE until your project is completed!

Offline princec

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« Reply #12 - Posted 2007-07-31 12:38:02 »

Yeah, to fix all the bugs in whatever release you might have. Of course some get fixed... and others get broken. Bah.

Cas Smiley

Offline appel

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« Reply #13 - Posted 2007-07-31 12:46:56 »

Is there any compelling reason to upgrade? Our uni upgrades one a year for that reason, and so do render farms; unless it's a bug fix then continue using your IDE until your project is completed!

I have multiple projects, and none of them will ever be "completed".

If I want to install new add-ons into Eclipse, then some update sites require me to have the latest Eclipse.

It's especially annoying to set up everything from scratch when many of your projects are SVN based.

I don't understand why they can't make Eclipse better when it comes to upgrading it, most software today have some sort of "Check for updates" or "Update now" feature.

Mozilla FireFox is really good...although not all extensions work properly between upgrades.

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Offline keldon85

Senior Member


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« Reply #14 - Posted 2007-07-31 13:26:51 »

I have multiple projects, and none of them will ever be "completed".

If I want to install new add-ons into Eclipse, then some update sites require me to have the latest Eclipse.

It's especially annoying to set up everything from scratch when many of your projects are SVN based.

I don't understand why they can't make Eclipse better when it comes to upgrading it, most software today have some sort of "Check for updates" or "Update now" feature.

Mozilla FireFox is really good...although not all extensions work properly between upgrades.
There is a reason why Windows Server has far fewer releases than the consumer versions of Windows - and it's this very reason. Typically a professional team will stay with the same version of software for a long period of time, for example Filmworks uses the same graphics cards throughout the rendering of a film and rarely change software throughout a project.

If a project is never "completed" then it isn't a project, and many people get caught up into this "must install latest upgrade/package"; like I said our uni installs packages once a year, maybe you should try it. Make a list of what you are using, then set up your environment to use just that for a year! Sure some fancy gadget will come out but if you didn't plan to use it then then you should not use it now since it was not in your plan.

Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #15 - Posted 2007-07-31 13:42:50 »

hmm only platform updates are suppose to be a pain.

are you using extension locations? export you format style download pages etc. But yeah that really should be ONE xml not all over the place. if they can fix that it would take the sting out of most of the stuff, installing plugins is pretty painless.

IntelliJ doesn't work for me, it relies on shortkeys a lot, for a zillion  things(well a zillion for me, anything beyond 5 is too much CTRL+space CTRL+shift+j CTRL+shift+f F4... and I already forgot the 5th.)

eclipse is great. they just need to wrap-it tighter together.

I'd be very careful about sticking to one version next to being inflexible if you fall asleep you might wake up in the stone age. Your development strip isn't that fragile/risky, frameworks and other 3rd party technologies are a totality differed matter.

especially when it comes to visuals if changing stuff makes hell break lose you might have to wonder about if there aren't underlaying problems causing problems(fixed pixel layout anyone?) on the flipside if your trying to make a living you don't have to win the beauty contest too.

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

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Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 45



« Reply #16 - Posted 2007-07-31 14:23:06 »

Is there any compelling reason to upgrade? Our uni upgrades one a year for that reason, and so do render farms; unless it's a bug fix then continue using your IDE until your project is completed!
I develop NetBeans plugins, so yeah, there is a compelling reason to upgrade.

IntelliJ doesn't work for me, it relies on shortkeys a lot, for a zillion  things(well a zillion for me, anything beyond 5 is too much CTRL+space CTRL+shift+j CTRL+shift+f F4... and I already forgot the 5th.)
Actually you get used to it very fast and you get a real problem once you are forced to use another IDE. It just feels like you can't do anything anymore Wink


Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #17 - Posted 2007-07-31 14:37:14 »

I develop NetBeans plugins, so yeah, there is a compelling reason to upgrade.
Actually you get used to it very fast and you get a real problem once you are forced to use another IDE. It just feels like you can't do anything anymore Wink
But for someone who is not developing plugins to an IDE where compatibilities is an issue, why would one want to change regularly?

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 50
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #18 - Posted 2007-07-31 15:59:17 »

The reason I wanted to upgrade Eclipse is this:

Vanilla Eclipse comes with no color coding or syntax insight for JSP pages, so I wanted to download some WST or whatever it's called extension for Eclipse. It didn't allow me to download the extension since I was using version 3.2.2, and not 3.3.0!

If you're one version behind in Eclipse you can't download and install the latest addons? That's ridiculous.
I might have 100 projects in Eclipse, you're telling me I need to recreate them all from scratch just for simple JSP color coding?

They haven't seemed to given this much thought!

Besides, about 2-3 new versions of Eclipse are released each year. Now, it seems, they've split up the original editor into 5 different editors:
- Eclipse IDE for java developers
- Eclipse IDE for Java ee developers
- Eclipse IDE for C/C++ developers
- Eclipse for RCP/Plug-in developers
- Eclipse classic

More nightmare! Smiley


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Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #19 - Posted 2007-07-31 16:05:58 »

Eclipse has one major release every year, and it is not 5 different editors but 1 with 5 alternative setups for it. The best thing you could do is actually place different Eclipse environments in different directories (which Eclipse allows you to do). For example I still have an old version of Eclipse on my backup that I could still run today if I wanted to, there is no need to have a single IDE for 100 different projects spanning different environment needs.


Offline DzzD
« Reply #20 - Posted 2007-07-31 16:24:29 »

this post is just related to the subject, did not read all this topic, but :

YES, I really dislike Eclipse, I tried it a long time ago, and I did not try it again since that times , may be 5 years ago.

I think I had a bad experience with it, maybe i should give it another try ....

Offline keldon85

Senior Member


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« Reply #21 - Posted 2007-07-31 16:47:09 »

Oh I've had bad experiences with just about everything Smiley

Offline cylab

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Medals: 45



« Reply #22 - Posted 2007-07-31 23:03:22 »

But for someone who is not developing plugins to an IDE where compatibilities is an issue, why would one want to change regularly?
- speed
- better code-navigation
- better code-completion
- support for multiple J2EE technologies
- ...

if updating an IDE is not encouraged by it's easyness, what's the point of issueing new releases at all? Wink

But to be honest - NetBeans 6 releases are (alpha) milestone releases, so it's really my own fault using them and expecting fluffy user experience...

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #23 - Posted 2007-07-31 23:47:14 »

- speed
- better code-navigation
- better code-completion
- support for multiple J2EE technologies
- ...

if updating an IDE is not encouraged by it's easyness, what's the point of issueing new releases at all? Wink
lol, well here's how I see it; you will rarely get significant speed increases within the same version, code completion is rarely going to change, and any new technology is not part of your project using old technology. If it becomes part of your project then set up for it, however Eclipse does not demand that you use one installation, it is built in a way that allows multiple configurations.

I have been caught out with incompatible add-ons too, but even Visual Studio has its issues - and how often do you *really* need to change? If you really do need to constantly upgrade your IDE I'll put money on there being a fault in your development process. If you're taking programming as a hobby then get good at using what you've got.

I mean there are still people using Visual Studio 6.0, Windows 2000, Office 98, Quark 4, and so on. When my dad built his studio he had the latest cubase with up to date hardware and the guy he partnered with had some old fashion mixer board + BBC tapes with Cubase (ver 1) on an Atari sequencing some simple synths. He was well acquainted with it and there was never any reason to upgrade; sure he didn't have the logical drum editing mode introduced in 1993, but he had learned to fully utilize it.

I'm not saying to stay in the dark ages, or regurgitating the "if it's not broke don't fix it" cliché, but if it ain't broke then why fix it?

Offline DzzD
« Reply #24 - Posted 2007-08-01 07:48:52 »

personnaly i Use JCreator, wich is "lite", have code completion, code collapsing, and auto help on clicking a classe name or so, and start in about 2 seconds.

I dont know what more i could expect to have ?

NB: "notepad++" is also cool tool for people who dont know it, give it a try, works with almost all language : VB,C,C++,JavaScript,XML,HTML,Java,sh,.... (about 25 languages) but it is more to edit one file than to make a project, but it have code completion and collapse, and syntax higlight for all those languages.

NB2: I really dislike IBM software... quality==0

Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #25 - Posted 2007-08-01 08:23:09 »

Oh, I used to like JCreator for the same reasons, but I don't remember it having the automatic class compilation, error tracking / correction, automatic imports and most of all (for me) the Together plugin (which knocks the socks off of any competition). And doesn't the "lite" version lack code completion?

How long it takes to load up is a non issue really, I mean how many times are you going to do that and how much does it really matter?

I do like how JCreator launches the JavaDoc internally and it operates fast. Having said that try Eclipse without its automatic compilation and other features and you will probably find it is actually much faster. EDIT: I don't mean faster than JCreator Smiley

I'm currently using ConText and before that used EditPlus; Notepad++ actually appears to be a stronger app! Installed Smiley

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


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Monkey for a head


« Reply #26 - Posted 2007-08-01 08:46:24 »

Oh, I used to like JCreator for the same reasons, but I don't remember it having the automatic class compilation, error tracking / correction, automatic imports and most of all (for me) the Together plugin (which knocks the socks off of any competition). And doesn't the "lite" version lack code completion?
Last time I tried JCreator it's "code completion" was a braindead simple "have I seen the start of this word anywhere in the same file?" method. Ie. code completion doesn't work the first time you do "JPan<ctrl+space", but the second time it'll pick up that it's seen "JPanel" elsewhere in the file.

It's crude and kind of works for variable names, but it's no where near proper code completion such as Eclipse's. And it still doesn't have a debugger (no, a command line prompt into the JDK debugger does not count). Basically it's a text editor trying to pretend it's something it's not.

It's still a great IDE for newbies though, since it's largely unintrusive and doesn't require you to faff around with fancy project settings just to get something to compile and run.

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Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #27 - Posted 2007-08-01 09:15:14 »

Huh? I'm sure I used debugging with JCreator, and I for sure did not pay for the pro version - yet I'm sure I did have the pro version. I'm guessing it must have come with a magazine Smiley

Offline DzzD
« Reply #28 - Posted 2007-08-01 09:26:38 »

Quote
And it still doesn't have a debugger (no, a command line prompt into the JDK debugger does not count). Basically it's a text editor trying to pretend it's something it's not.

It's still a great IDE for newbies though, since it's largely unintrusive and doesn't require you to faff around with fancy project settings just to get something to compile and run.

Quote
... it having the automatic class compilation, error tracking / correction, automatic imports and most of all (for me) the Together plugin ..

Quote
...It's still a great IDE for newbies though..

Well, "it is for newbies?!", what i think, is a bit different : newbies really requiere code completion, auto-correction, as if they have someone near to them to help...,  but if you are not a newbie you will dont need those things....at least it will only help in few case.

auto-error correction... woaou, great, may be eclipse will soon propose auto programming making  Smiley ,  the quality of software will then became as great as those done by IBM & MS, with about 50% of code auto-generated and under control.

you may try Visual basic... you will love it.  Wink

I have not the commercial version of JCreator, I will buy it, but what i know is code completion works as in MS visual studio for the commercial version.

I think it is not good when a software try to do all that it is possible to do.


but ok, finally, i will give eclipse another try...

Offline ravenger

Senior Newbie





« Reply #29 - Posted 2007-08-01 09:41:04 »

Well, "it is for newbies?!", what i think, is a bit different : newbies really requiere code completion, auto-correction, as if they have someone near to them to help...,  but if you are not a newbie you will dont need those things....at least it will only help in few case.

auto-error correction... woaou, great, may be eclipse will soon propose auto programming making  Smiley ,  the quality of software will then became as great as those done by IBM & MS, with about 50% of code auto-generated and under control.

you may try Visual basic... you will love it.  Wink

I have not the commercial version of JCreator, I will buy it, but what i know is code completion works as in MS visual studio for the commercial version.

I think it is not good when a software try to do all that it is possible to do.


but ok, finally, i will give eclipse another try...
hmm, i really have to disagree with you with your statement that things like codecompletion and stuff are for newbies. It isnt in there for nothing, it allows you to work faster and more efficient.
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