Java-Gaming.org Hi !
Featured games (83)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (513)
Games in Android Showcase (121)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (577)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: 1 [2]
  ignore  |  Print  
  What's Killing Game Development?  (Read 7619 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline keldon85

Senior Duke


Medals: 1



« Reply #30 - Posted 2007-07-31 19:31:57 »

You misintepreted me. I said I believe anything can be created procedurally, that is in algorithms. If you have a fun game, yes, you can recreate it in algorithms. What are games? Isn't a game code just one big complex algorithm?
Well if something can be created procedurally then yes it can be done with an algorithm; but a game is not just "one big algorithm" it is actually more of a simulation of an imaginary world created by the game designer. The models are created by artists, and sure you can use algorithms to create random textures and random arrangements of buildings to generate scenes, but anything requiring "art" and the concept of good and bad requires much more complex AI and methods.

If you could create an algorithm that decides whether something is "good" the same algorithm will play a pivotal role in an algorithm that makes something "good"!

Online Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 818
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #31 - Posted 2007-07-31 19:38:40 »

Isn't that like you only need enough time, monkeys and typewriters until one writes a nice poem?

Chances you can fit 'fun' inside an algorithm in your lifetime, are next to zero.



Back on topic: look at your average building in your average town... it aint exactly fun inside, so why would we aim for 'fun' inside our proceduraly generated cities anyway, it's about recreating reality, and reality aint exactly fun (eh..) well, you need to have a goal to have fun, and the goal has probably little to do with the buildings around you, it's about interacting with others inside that city.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline 2playgames

Junior Duke





« Reply #32 - Posted 2007-07-31 21:13:32 »

Quote
Chances you can fit 'fun' inside an algorithm in your lifetime, are next to zero.
not entirely true. if you know that a shooter level is fun if it has many alleys and corners, but with some open spaces, you can make the algorithm to do just that Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline keldon85

Senior Duke


Medals: 1



« Reply #33 - Posted 2007-07-31 21:28:26 »

not entirely true. if you know that a shooter level is fun if it has many alleys and corners, but with some open spaces, you can make the algorithm to do just that Smiley

Well try this for size; read back issues of the Game Developer magazine and you'll find an article comparing the timings of character responses, level sizes (in terms of how long it takes to get from one end to the other) of all the most popular and highest  rated games and they are all very similar. Yet amongst these results countless games with similar timings are not fun to play, in fact how many bond games have come close to comparing to the gameplay of Goldeneye *cough* timesplitters!! Why is MGS so great to play while Mission Impossible is not so highly rated?

People get it wrong so many times because "good" is not that easy to achieve. And until "good" can be measured or defined to quantifiable means it cannot be procedurally created!

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 51
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #34 - Posted 2007-07-31 23:17:52 »

I think I need to reword my sentences.

What I DON'T mean is that you can have a algorithm like:  goodGame = algorithm(game parameters)
I think people think that's what I mean, but it's not.

What I mean is, like keldon85 said, many levels in FPS games are very similar (the most popular ones). By comparing all the popular maps you can find out some common parameters, and from it you can create similar levels using an algorithm:

goodLevel = algorithm(level parameters)

I have experienced this in a game called Battlezone 2, but I've created about 10 popular maps for that game and all I did was following simple rules I had figured out regarding playability, but I pretty much knew what made the maps popular. I could probably write a algorithm to create heightmaps that are fit for that game.

If I remember right, some of the C&C had some random map generator, but it was entirely random and it did not even take into account space for base building,  nor some neutral grounds waiting to be taken over. So those maps were no fun to play, but making the maps fun could be easily done by simply allowing for base areas, neutral grounds, and not scatter resources in weird places.


If you can generate whole levels (fun ones too) using an algorithm, and you can generate models, such as characters, I don't think there is any limit. You can create music by using an algorithm! You can create textures by using an algorithm! You can create trees using an algorithm! You can create buildings using an algorithm! Of course all algorithms need INPUT.

That doesn't mean you'll have an algorithm that does everything for you, what I mean is you'll have algorithms that help you create that good game you're trying to make.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Online Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 818
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #35 - Posted 2007-07-31 23:59:07 »

Those parameters you're talking about are most likely very high-level, and extremely hard to put in numbers.

Your observations resulting in those values of parameters from other maps required a brain to analyze and turn into ideas about what exactly are the parameters, what values they have, and what influence one has over the other. Using that information to build something new, requires the very same brain, to solve all kinds of problems that you observe while building the new map.

Think of it like this: terrain (valleys, hills, mountain-ranges) is one of the most elementry parts of a map. We, humans, can immediately see whether it was generated by an algorithm or 'produced by nature'. Thousands of developers have worked on this, and the result is still quite poor. No matter what parameters you feed this algorithm, at best, it will still require a human-brain that determines whether is 'looks realistic'. Personaly, I've yet you see a convincing ingame scenery, that didn't use actual elevation data.

What I'm trying to say is: even seemingly easy to reproduce structures, are extremely hard to fit into an algorithm. There are so many variables that have to be finetuned (and influence eachother), that the actual INPUT is so big it would be impossible to handle.

Creating fun in procedural algorithms, requires intelligence (being able to analyze and make corrections on the fly). Either that, or tune a gigazillion variables yourself, which takes the 'procedural' out of the procedural algorithm.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline keldon85

Senior Duke


Medals: 1



« Reply #36 - Posted 2007-08-01 00:07:44 »

Without trying to sound like a broken record, it ain't that simple. Certain types of battle grounds are easy to generate, I mean random level generators are simple to build but don't confuse a random battleground generator with a game level generator.

Basically if the range of possibilities are range and the need for variation is high but there is no measure on your solution then you have a tough (or impossible) implementation. Buildings, characters and so on are easy to generate since there is a model that they can follow - I think you're putting too much thought into the idea that algorithms can create anything.

A good level is not just level parameters in the same way that music or any other form of aesthetics is not just parameters. Read up on AI and genetic algorithms and remember that the fitness function is half of the key. Without a working fitness function you have no genetic algorithm; and then there is the gene types, gene mixing approach and so many other areas to get right - but other than that all genetic algorithms have the same make up.

Some things have few rules, I mean what makes a good battle ground in command and conquer, what makes a good balance of levels under different difficulties in a game like Goldeneye. One more thing about a game is that the levels are not just stand alone components, Goldeneye worked because it had the perfect first level, it had a perfect follow up to it, and right through the different types of levels followed on from each other to give a good variation of playing styles. Time splitters and Perfect Dark had  a similar formula to that, but the formula only works with a full understanding of what it feels like to play.

There is a reason why games are play tested, it's because the work is not finished straight after the design phase.

But again read up on AI and genetic algorithms, it might give you more insight into the complexity of "good".

Offline ravenger

Senior Newbie





« Reply #37 - Posted 2007-08-01 08:20:34 »

Some things have few rules, I mean what makes a good battle ground in command and conquer, what makes a good balance of levels under different difficulties in a game like Goldeneye. One more thing about a game is that the levels are not just stand alone components, Goldeneye worked because it had the perfect first level, it had a perfect follow up to it, and right through the different types of levels followed on from each other to give a good variation of playing styles. Time splitters and Perfect Dark had  a similar formula to that, but the formula only works with a full understanding of what it feels like to play.

There is a reason why games are play tested, it's because the work is not finished straight after the design phase.

But again read up on AI and genetic algorithms, it might give you more insight into the complexity of "good".
Well, its a general rule in game design that your first level has to be completely overwhelming yet not difficult, so its not a complete surprise. Looking at games like God of War which excess this in full, never played the rest of the game but playing the first level just so asks for more. Ofcourse you cant apply procedural level generators to that kind of thing, at least not to full extend, but im sure you can find some application for procedural content creation so that it takes time of your hands.

I guess there are three main things you have to concider when using procedural content; first, it has to lower development time and cost (thats why we are discussing it in the first place Wink), second you have to look where you can apply it, how and in what way, and third you have to be aware that its not simple and easy to just come up with some kind of algorithm that just makes it all happen.
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 51
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #38 - Posted 2007-08-01 10:01:53 »

Procedural graphics would help you create the levels/maps you want in your game, it wouldn't create the levels/maps for you.

It's a question of; a) starting from scratch, creating every single model and texture or b) having algorithms creating the generic things for you so you can spend more time designing your game.

You can pretty much create an algorithm for anything:
- tables
- chairs
- light pole
- rocks
- trees, all types
- etc.

Once you've created an algorithm for, let's say table, you can simply click a button in some level editor, define some parameters like what the material the table is made from, how many legs, the dimensions, if it's round or rectangle in shape etc. etc. and bamm, the table appears without any work from the graphical department!

For your next game title, you might want some fancier table, so you simply add bump mapping feature into that same algorithm to give it some rough look.

IMO we'll see features like that.

All real world objects can be represented in math/geometry.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 409
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #39 - Posted 2007-08-01 10:08:09 »

Someone's still got to make all the textures.

Procedural isn't the future, it's just one way of achieving a particular effect (seemingly large amounts of bland content).

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Online Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 818
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #40 - Posted 2007-08-01 10:08:22 »

@appel:

Very true. I think most trees in games are generated that way.

Doesn't get near the fun-algorithm though Wink

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline keldon85

Senior Duke


Medals: 1



« Reply #41 - Posted 2007-08-01 10:22:28 »

@Appel, read up about AI and genetic algorithms so that you can have more scope to understand the complexity of the problem domain. Simple objects can be created algorithmically, but it requires an existing model to do so Smiley If you create an algorithm that generates a phone then the creation is in the coding of the algorithm and not the algorithm itself, all the algorithm is doing is producing a model out of a choice of all finite possibilities using the input data/parameters.

For an algorithm to truly create requires possibilities to be relatively infinite, and for it to be able to judge what is good or not! That is a problem!

Offline DzzD
« Reply #42 - Posted 2007-08-01 10:34:51 »

I already mention this web site and this man wich is the father of natural procedural noise (and so texture, animation,...), but i do it again for people who dont know its web site already:

http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/

Offline DzzD
« Reply #43 - Posted 2007-08-01 11:14:49 »

Someone's still got to make all the textures.

Procedural isn't the future, it's just one way of achieving a particular effect (seemingly large amounts of bland content).

Cas Smiley

procedural can be used sometime, it have some advantage as no memory used and perfect 3d result/mapping
, there are some sample at the bottom of this web site.

http://freespace.virgin.net/hugo.elias/models/m_perlin.htm

also have a look to this software "vue d'esprit 6" it use a lot of procedural for geometrie, texture, etc...

http://www.e-onsoftware.com/showcase/?page=6

Offline keldon85

Senior Duke


Medals: 1



« Reply #44 - Posted 2007-08-01 11:23:13 »

The path experiment is very impressive, but Appel don't get procedral textures and models confused with procedral game level creators. If it were as simple as "just create one of these algorithms to create a game level" then it would have been done yesterday.

Random scene/terrain generation is nothing new, there are thousands of factors that make a game good and listing them does nowt. So before replying read up on AI and genetic algorithms to understand about the complexity of the problem domain and the size of the solution set when compared the the number of possibilities.

Consider that the possibilities of all creations and solutions are endless, but you are more likely to find a bad solution than a good one in the same way that prime numbers are infinite yet you are more likely to find a number that is not prime.

Offline DzzD
« Reply #45 - Posted 2007-08-01 11:29:41 »

Quote
The path experiment is very impressive, but Appel don't get procedral textures and models confused with procedral game level creators. If it were as simple as "just create one of these algorithms to create a game level" then it would have been done yesterday.

so maybe tomorrow  Wink

Quote
Random scene/terrain generation is nothing new, there are thousands of factors that make a game good and listing them does nowt. So before replying read up on AI and genetic algorithms to understand about the complexity of the problem domain and the size of the solution set when compared the the number of possibilities.

Consider that the possibilities of all creations and solutions are endless, but you are more likely to find a bad solution than a good one in the same way that prime numbers are infinite yet you are more likely to find a number that is not prime.

hoho!,  I was just giving some interresting links about procedural things...

EDIT:

as said by ken perlin on its home page did you try this
COMPILE THIS:
main(k){float i,j,r,x,y=-16;while(puts(""),y++<15)for(x
=0;x++<84;putchar(" .:-;!/>)|&IH%*#"[k&15]))for(i=k=r=0;
j=r*r-i*i-2+x/25,i=2*r*i+y/10,j*j+i*i<11&&k++<111;r=j);}

I had to make some few modifications but it works, funny

Offline keldon85

Senior Duke


Medals: 1



« Reply #46 - Posted 2007-08-01 12:11:59 »

That's C abuse Wink I just wouldn't want to give Appel the wrong impression about procedural programming (which some of Perlin's work was not). AI is a complex topic and though it is potentially possible to create an AI that is as creative and understanding as a human being we are far from it.

Offline DzzD
« Reply #47 - Posted 2007-08-01 12:25:22 »

Quote
All real world objects can be represented in math/geometry.

theoricaly, I totally agree with you, but unfortunatly it is quite complexe for human brain. ps: 3ds max already use this to generate tree and other object, you simply set up some parameter and it generate the tree or some other objects.

EDIT: this is a perfect way for LOD algorithm.

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 51
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #48 - Posted 2007-08-01 23:57:27 »

Let's build a computer that can calculate the answer to life, the universe, and everything!

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Online Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 818
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #49 - Posted 2007-08-02 00:18:36 »

System.exit(42);

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline keldon85

Senior Duke


Medals: 1



« Reply #50 - Posted 2007-08-02 00:33:03 »

System.exit(42);
Cheesy Oh someone had to didn't they Smiley

Offline DzzD
« Reply #51 - Posted 2007-08-02 01:23:04 »

Let's build a computer that can calculate the answer to life, the universe, and everything!

it will surely append , but when we will all be dead for a long time Smiley


NB: many 2d games provide  a mode with random level generator  like red alert, empire earth , maybe command&conquer Wink sorry those title are old as I did not play game for a long time...., so why not 3d level generator algorithm....

NB2: nowadays it append in music and movies,music & movies that grab the most money are made as an algorithm... so why not for game...

 

Offline keldon85

Senior Duke


Medals: 1



« Reply #52 - Posted 2007-08-02 07:15:33 »

NB2: nowadays it append in music and movies,music & movies that grab the most money are made as an algorithm... so why not for game...
Because it has to be played so it is more than just terrain that you look at; it is terrain that you interact with and provides game play value. The distance of the jumps in Mario 64 and Rayman go beyond mere random generation and enter the realm of "play". You can make something fun with it but to program it requires knowledge of it and is limited to one thing. I mean yes you can randomly generate some types of levels easily, and could generate 2d platformer environments quite well; now generate MGS with cutscenes, player animations, AI, scripts and so on - it requires intelligence that would cost far more to code a generator than it would to hire an artist and scripters Smiley

Pages: 1 [2]
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

theagentd (13 views)
2014-10-25 15:46:29

Longarmx (52 views)
2014-10-17 03:59:02

Norakomi (45 views)
2014-10-16 15:22:06

Norakomi (34 views)
2014-10-16 15:20:20

lcass (39 views)
2014-10-15 16:18:58

TehJavaDev (68 views)
2014-10-14 00:39:48

TehJavaDev (68 views)
2014-10-14 00:35:47

TehJavaDev (60 views)
2014-10-14 00:32:37

BurntPizza (73 views)
2014-10-11 23:24:42

BurntPizza (45 views)
2014-10-11 23:10:45
Understanding relations between setOrigin, setScale and setPosition in libGdx
by mbabuskov
2014-10-09 22:35:00

Definite guide to supporting multiple device resolutions on Android (2014)
by mbabuskov
2014-10-02 22:36:02

List of Learning Resources
by Longor1996
2014-08-16 10:40:00

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-08-05 19:33:27

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:20:17

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:19:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:29:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:26:06
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!