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  Java Bad?  (Read 7259 times)
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Offline appel

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« Reply #30 - Posted 2007-07-23 12:23:59 »

The only way you're going to do that, get Google to use Java for streaming video, is that Java would be superior in that case. It just isn't. I have not seen a single Java implementation displaying video as a embedded web application, that actually works smoothly, loads up quickly.

The fact is more and more are starting to use Flash, such as CNN, and other big news sites for video. The user integration is far superior than the one they had, the standard windows media plugin that barely worked.

Java can already do all those games, and probably video, but the user integration is lagging somewhere 10 years behind.

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Offline keldon85

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« Reply #31 - Posted 2007-07-23 13:23:34 »

It just isn't. I have not seen a single Java implementation displaying video as a embedded web application, that actually works smoothly, loads up quickly.
Does eViewStream count!

Even Sun use Flash for their videos, but Java has more potential. For a start it can load video data in real time without server cooperation by just loading smaller file torrents and piecing them together manually, bypassing the need for streaming. Secondly it can always download the latest codecs on demand without (a) installing, (b) requiring extra privileges or (c) requiring user interaction. And it can do all this by using WebStart, since WebStart automatically downloads the latest Jar file to update the WebStart application, so there is so much more that it can do. Plus you're not doing anything that requires privileges needing verification.

Streaming (IMO) is badly misused. It should only be used when something is being broadcast live or to provide automatic bitrates. If it is stored on the server and acts like an mp3 then real time loading is more than sufficient (if done correctly).

Offline appel

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« Reply #32 - Posted 2007-07-23 13:46:45 »


Java still "loaded" up, showing that annoying icon in the taskbar and showing a balloon with some nonsense text I'm not interested in.

It's a nice tech demonstration. But user interaction still missing in that program, no play/pause and no seek bar. I'd also like to see a bit higher resolution being played, 4:3 dimension also Smiley They need to show that it can do EVERYTHING Flash does, that's basically the standard today. If you can't beat the standard then you can't compete.

But nice solution there though. Wish it was OpenSource.

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Offline oNyx

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« Reply #33 - Posted 2007-07-23 14:10:00 »

[...]
Streaming (IMO) is badly misused. It should only be used when something is being broadcast live or to provide automatic bitrates. If it is stored on the server and acts like an mp3 then real time loading is more than sufficient (if done correctly).

Eh? Most flash videos aren't streamed. Youtube for example doesn't use streaming (google video does tho).

With streaming you can directly jump to a specific position without loading the complete video up to that point.

But seriously. Java doesn't need to replace everything. Flash is currently the best solution for video and beating it is almost impossible. You need superior quality and/or less CPU usage and it needs to start up as quickly as Flash and the compatibility needs to be equally high or even higher.

Forget it.

The guys from Opera came up with the only possible improvement:
http://my.opera.com/haavard/blog/2007/03/05/1

edit: Oh and Theora doesn't support lossless stuff, which is possible with FLV (2 lossless codecs and 2 lossy ones).

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline keldon85

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« Reply #34 - Posted 2007-07-23 15:01:38 »

Oh yeah, it doesn't stream! I don't think it is that Java needs to replace everything, but if they could compete with Flash for video / audio playback then it would have a much higher user base than it currently does.

Besides, look at all the available codecs around, the compression ratio quality achieved with the format Flash uses can easily be matched using open source formats. And as for interface, pah! It's not exactly a cutting edge interface now.

The Java platform icon is not necessary, although that isn't much of a serious issue really now is it? From where I'm sitting I couldn't care less what is used as long as it doesn't force me to pay more because it's a proprietary format. As for Sun, they should care because this will increase their market share and leverage.

Offline oNyx

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« Reply #35 - Posted 2007-07-23 15:20:51 »

>[...]if they could compete with Flash for video / audio playback[...]

They can't. Flash is more suited for that. Bigger user base, smaller download, no noticeable startup times, they got the tools and codecs etc...

Java simply isn't the right tool for this job. The only thing that can outperform it is direct integration into all browsers. Get your pros n cons straight. Wink

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline appel

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« Reply #36 - Posted 2007-07-23 15:30:45 »

I don't like the Java splash screen, it is decent graphically, but I think it places too much emphasize on technology over user experience. The developer should be able to define his own splash screen.

One thing we have talked about, and that's Java's WebStart.

Ever wondered why there isn't "Flash WebStart"?  Shocked

I'm really opposed to how the WebStart feature is used, not because it's a bad feature, but because it is used improperly. WebStart should only be used where appropriate. Small games that would be embedded on a web page if they were in Flash, are being created as a WebStart in Java. Which causes all sorts of pop-ups for the users, reducing his experience. Are Applets really that unattractive, that WebStart is more attractive?
And then again, if the game is small enough to be run as a embedded game, then WebStart should only be used for larger games, right? Well, hm, no, IMO you should not release larger games as WebStartable, you would want the user to download some install program and then set it up on the computer, like he has learned to do over the decades.  Besides, the user would know he is setting up a application on his computer, and it would be properly set up, whilst nobody knows what will happen with a WebStartable application, will it add shortcuts to the desktop? Will you have to revisit that website to click on that jnlp link again to run the program again?

WebStart for games? I'm not ruling it out, but in most cases I've seen WebStart is used inappropriately.

This is more up to the developer though.

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Offline ravenger

Senior Newbie





« Reply #37 - Posted 2007-07-23 15:35:33 »

Yes, Flash is faster than Java since it uses DirectX / Direct3D for graphics while Java uses software rendering by default.  Of course Java does have openGL in the form of JOGL/LWJGL and also Java2D's openGL pipeline but OGL just doesn't work on many people's computers  Sad.

In terms of processing (non-graphics) things Java is faster since it is dynamically compiled to native code at runtime by the hotspot VM while Flash is interpretted

BUT, Java is about to get a face-lift because the Java2D team at Sun are working on a proper Direct3D pipeline for Java2D, which hopefully will not have the stability issues of OGL.  Also, our hero CaptainJester is endeavoring to build a D3D binding in LWJGL.

see http://weblogs.java.net/blog/chet/archive/2007/05/consumer_jre_le.html (read the part under the Windows Graphics heading)
http://www.java-gaming.org/forums/index.php?topic=16985.msg133298#msg133298 (LWJGL & direct3d)

Keith
You're totally off on your statement that flash uses directx. It doesnt, it just uses software rendering, because Flash is somewhat like Java multiplatform. It runs on 99% of all computers, you certainly cant achieve such thing when you integrate directX for rendering. I havent seen any state of the art Flash 3D Games either Wink The best there is, is papervision 3D, which is able to render about 1000 to 2000 poly max on screen, and uses software rendering aswell.
Offline oNyx

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« Reply #38 - Posted 2007-07-23 15:48:36 »

>The developer should be able to define his own splash screen.

Well, you can... with -splash.
1  
2  
 -splash:<imagepath>
               show splash screen with specified image


>Are Applets really that unattractive, that WebStart is more attractive?

Yes, they are.

>[...]IMO you should not release larger games as WebStartable, you would want the user to download some
>install program and then set it up on the computer[...]

Well, you can use some installer and pre-populate the jws cache with your app. This way you can still utilize the updating function under the hood.

I think, however, that jws is currently only good for opensource, freeware or beta testing.

---

And yes, there is no acceleration in Flash. There is only accelerated canvas scaling (fullscreen mode) on some platforms with the latest player.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline keldon85

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« Reply #39 - Posted 2007-07-23 15:54:26 »

I thought that the Java Quake 2 web start done it correctly, although could not handle (a) FTP servers that were down and (b) FTP servers requiring a password. But once I selected the ts.berlin (or whatever it's called) it worked like a treat!

I have seen many web start applications installing itself for no apparent reason, and sometimes applets just aren't attractive. Having said that it's been fine for flash, but at least allows you to be able to close your browser window and play the game. You are right about the uncertainty over what it will do, usually I have to go into control panel and remove it. I used to copy the jnlp files and launch them from wherever I stored them at uni; I had no idea how jnlp files worked back then but the soda constructor was a great example of its use for me.

Jnlp files tend to be used where Jar files would have in the past. Also Sun should have web start applications organised by domain name (first) with the option of being able to organize them later whenever they are installed.

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Offline erikd

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« Reply #40 - Posted 2007-07-23 17:56:22 »

Quote
I think, however, that jws is currently only good for opensource, freeware or beta testing.

Hm, I give JWS a little more credit than that. Wurm Online is a good example where JWS makes perfect sense and where it's used well.

Offline princec

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« Reply #41 - Posted 2007-07-23 19:29:23 »

Webstart's not popular with random punters though. Works in a corporate environment well but not so good in the internet at large. It's a sort of remote installer with most of the features you want missing. NSIS all the way for me.

Cas Smiley

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