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  Java Bad?  (Read 6854 times)
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Space Xscape
Guest
« Posted 2007-07-20 06:42:43 »

I went on irc chat at gamedev.net and asked "which is better flash or java". Everyone except 1 person said Flash. I then asked "Whats wrong with java?" and then someone had this to say:

"What isn't right with java?"'

I said "nothing" to see what he would say and i he agreed with my statement. Another person mentioned Runescape when i told them i wanted to create a mmorpg. Is there something i'm missing or does everyone think java is dead?

Sincerely,

Space Xscape
Online kevglass

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Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #1 - Posted 2007-07-20 08:00:19 »

Java in the browser isn't working out against Flash, though things like PulpCore give me a lot of hope in these areas. The Java experience is essentially ruined by a lack of focus on making browser integration seamless (like Flash).

However, the majority here are using Java for out of browser (i.e. application style) game development - where Java out performs at runtime and/or productivity Flash and other more traditional technologies. If you're attempting to make a game like Runescape I suggest you read around as to why this is essentially a waste of time and effort.

Of course, you've posted on a Java forum so the chances are all you'll get here is us saying Java is great! Cheesy

Kev

Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #2 - Posted 2007-07-20 10:40:31 »

Flash just got lucky that's all, unless they were total geniuses and planned their success. Flash games were all about scripting, like JavaScript. And the power of a script is that it tends to be easier for a beginner, quite like when creating forms in Access and Excel.

I've never sat down and thought that flash would be better to use!

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Offline CaptainJester

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Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #3 - Posted 2007-07-20 13:46:38 »

Of course, you've posted on a Java forum so the chances are all you'll get here is us saying Java is great! Cheesy

Yeah and on GameDev, at least half the people there are C monkeys.  Myths are constantly perpetuated by them, even though they have never tried Java.  And the most vocal opponents are the ones who haven't tried it.  The best you can do is give it a try yourself and form your own opinion.

Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #4 - Posted 2007-07-20 13:59:18 »

Yeah and on GameDev, at least half the people there are C monkeys.  Myths are constantly perpetuated by them, even though they have never tried Java.  And the most vocal opponents are the ones who haven't tried it.  The best you can do is give it a try yourself and form your own opinion.
Well I think that half of the myths get supported when people try simple things like raster graphics and find it to be terribly slow - all because Sun said "this is how to do it". Sun have given out lots of bad advice speedwise, so when people try it out they find it is not fast and assume the rest of Java is just as slow.

If anything thinks Java is slow then shove http://www.jphotobrushpro.com/ in their face and tell them to run the webstart!!!

Offline ravenger

Senior Newbie





« Reply #5 - Posted 2007-07-20 14:42:31 »

Flash just got lucky that's all, unless they were total geniuses and planned their success. Flash games were all about scripting, like JavaScript. And the power of a script is that it tends to be easier for a beginner, quite like when creating forms in Access and Excel.

I've never sat down and thought that flash would be better to use!
well i have to say that you're comparison is not entirely right. Real Flash games are programmed mostly the same way as JAVA games, except actionscript lacks some things like abstract classes and method and constructor overloading. Actionscript really has come a long way lately with the new actionscript 3.0. That have said, JAVA is way better than Flash when it comes to performance and power of the language and application based like kevin said.
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


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« Reply #6 - Posted 2007-07-20 14:53:14 »

well i have to say that you're comparison is not entirely right. Real Flash games are programmed mostly the same way as JAVA games, except actionscript lacks some things like abstract classes and method and constructor overloading. Actionscript really has come a long way lately with the new actionscript 3.0. That have said, JAVA is way better than Flash when it comes to performance and power of the language and application based like kevin said.
Oh yes, don't get me wrong I'm not saying that there is not programming going on. But when you get started using a scripting language is much more beginner friendly. In a few lines you get interaction from a Flash Applet; not doing anything special but to a beginner they've just created "my first flash applet".

Space Xscape
Guest
« Reply #7 - Posted 2007-07-20 15:41:57 »

If you're attempting to make a game like Runescape I suggest you read around as to why this is essentially a waste of time and effort.

Why is that?
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #8 - Posted 2007-07-20 15:56:55 »

RPG's are one of the most complicated type of game to create. If you want to make games start off with learning simpler games rather than starting out with the 11th chapel!

There are few individuals who have completed an RPG game that isn't more than a short demo.

Space Xscape
Guest
« Reply #9 - Posted 2007-07-20 16:34:39 »

I was told performance wise flash was flaster then java.
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Offline 2playgames

Junior Member





« Reply #10 - Posted 2007-07-20 17:28:09 »

Flash uses interpreted scripts, Java is precompiled bytecode which JIT compiles into machine code. Flash can't be faster

Offline keldon85

Senior Member


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« Reply #11 - Posted 2007-07-20 20:35:28 »

Hmmm, it's funny how that statement affects the perception of Java more than it does with flash!

Offline 2playgames

Junior Member





« Reply #12 - Posted 2007-07-20 21:11:34 »

?

Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #13 - Posted 2007-07-20 21:29:52 »

?
i.e. Java is kept away from due to its so-called speed issues, Flash is preferred over Java for its ease of use!!!

Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


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Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #14 - Posted 2007-07-20 23:22:28 »

i.e. Java is kept away from due to its so-called speed issues, Flash is preferred over Java for its ease of use!!!

Not so much its ease of use in programming, but ease of putting it in the browser for everyone to access.

Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #15 - Posted 2007-07-20 23:44:24 »

I was told performance wise flash was flaster then java.

Yes, Flash is faster than Java since it uses DirectX / Direct3D for graphics while Java uses software rendering by default.  Of course Java does have openGL in the form of JOGL/LWJGL and also Java2D's openGL pipeline but OGL just doesn't work on many people's computers  Sad.

In terms of processing (non-graphics) things Java is faster since it is dynamically compiled to native code at runtime by the hotspot VM while Flash is interpretted

BUT, Java is about to get a face-lift because the Java2D team at Sun are working on a proper Direct3D pipeline for Java2D, which hopefully will not have the stability issues of OGL.  Also, our hero CaptainJester is endeavoring to build a D3D binding in LWJGL.

see http://weblogs.java.net/blog/chet/archive/2007/05/consumer_jre_le.html (read the part under the Windows Graphics heading)
http://www.java-gaming.org/forums/index.php?topic=16985.msg133298#msg133298 (LWJGL & direct3d)

Keith

Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #16 - Posted 2007-07-20 23:56:04 »

I went on irc chat at gamedev.net and asked "which is better flash or java". Everyone except 1 person said Flash. I then asked "Whats wrong with java?" and then someone had this to say:

"What isn't right with java?"'

I said "nothing" to see what he would say and i he agreed with my statement. Another person mentioned Runescape when i told them i wanted to create a mmorpg. Is there something i'm missing or does everyone think java is dead?

That says an awful lot more about Gamedev.net than it does about Java.

But that's not news. Want to see what gd.net thinks of java?

Go look in the forums. Where is the Java topic?

Is it with all the other programming languages (directx, scripting, etc) or programming disciplines (AI, multiplayer, etc) under "The Technical Side" ?

No. It's under "Special Interest".

And this is on a site where the forums ARE the website (there's quite a lot tacked on the side these days, but GD.net has always been a forums site with extra bits. Not the other way around)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Space Xscape
Guest
« Reply #17 - Posted 2007-07-21 00:43:57 »

Overall, would converting my game from Flash to Java be a good idea?
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #18 - Posted 2007-07-21 02:08:10 »

Overall, would converting my game from Flash to Java be a good idea?

Hmm, well if you manage to make a game in any language and understand programming enough you should have no problem implementing it in another. Having said that if you want to create a runescape type game then remember that whole "RPG's are one of the most difficult types of games to create" line!!!

There is a general route to take, which I think you should follow!

Space Xscape
Guest
« Reply #19 - Posted 2007-07-21 04:58:44 »

I'm more worried that if i convert my flash game Space Xscape link into java, it will run slower and less visitors will be able to play it since flash can install the player if the visitor doesn't alread have it or has an older version unlike java which requires a manual install.
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #20 - Posted 2007-07-21 09:14:19 »

It's not going to run any slower. Load up runescape and see how fast it runs with 3d graphics. As for the whole install thing, just provide a link to the java.com download - I doubt you'll have a problem with even beginners not being able to click next, next, next. And it did no harm to yahoo games!

http://www.radicalplay.com/madness/ (play the game)
http://www.sodaplay.com/zoo/index.htm (load some of the models and stuff)

Offline CaptainJester

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Medals: 12
Projects: 2
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Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #21 - Posted 2007-07-21 12:35:26 »

You can also embed the applet so that it will download the JRE automatically if someone doesn't have it.

Space Xscape
Guest
« Reply #22 - Posted 2007-07-21 16:15:04 »

You can also embed the applet so that it will download the JRE automatically if someone doesn't have it.

I plan on using webstart for my game. Any suggestions?

It's not going to run any slower.

Will it run any faster?
Space Xscape
Guest
« Reply #23 - Posted 2007-07-22 14:52:47 »

I plan on using webstart for my game. Any suggestions?

Will it run any faster?

Can someone please answer this.
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #24 - Posted 2007-07-22 16:07:06 »

Your game will not run any slower, and as for webstart; I would suggest getting an applet/frame working first!

Offline SimonH
« Reply #25 - Posted 2007-07-22 16:16:44 »

I plan on using webstart for my game. Any suggestions?

I'd advise applets unless you must use webstart (ie for local file access, TCP/IP, &c) - people get (understandably) nervous about the 'Do you want to trust this app' stuff that webstart throws up.

People make games and games make people
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


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« Reply #26 - Posted 2007-07-22 16:36:25 »

One more thing about speed, look at the Java Quake2/C Quake2 benchmarks!!!

Offline oNyx

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pixels! :x


« Reply #27 - Posted 2007-07-22 18:54:32 »

I'd advise applets unless you must use webstart (ie for local file access, TCP/IP, &c) - people get (understandably) nervous about the 'Do you want to trust this app' stuff that webstart throws up.

If you don't request extra permissions (if you're fine with running in a sandbox) then there won't be any scary dialogs. (fuzetsu - see... no scary dialog there.)

>Yes, Flash is faster than Java since it uses DirectX / Direct3D for graphics while Java uses software
>rendering by default.

Flash is slower all the way. For a simple platformer with a tiny screen (eg 400x300) you need like 1.5-2ghz. Even with the ddraw pipeline you can do that kind of thing with 500mhz easily.

Oh and before you ask, yes, I update Flash regularly (new vulns are found every few weeks).

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Offline appel

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I always win!


« Reply #28 - Posted 2007-07-23 12:07:33 »

Flash didn't just "get lucky" or accidentally get "good" and used widespread. They've worked hard to make it as popular as it is today, and they've had a lot of time to do it. Flash hit mainstream popularity about 2 years ago? Flash started out as "FutureSplash" on Macintosh, then made it's way to the PC. It's been around since 1996, that's 11 years! When did Sun release Java? About the same time!

You cannot compare Flash and Java, there are two fundamental differences between them. Java being a technology, that is Java was designed as a VM and a language in which you could create solutions, while Flash is a end-user solution that has been re-coded at least a couple of times from scratch, that is it's primary goal is user interaction no matter what is beneath it. Flash is used in only one area, for one purpose, while Java is used in many areas for multiple purposes. Flash is today probably all that it's going to be. You're not going to make enterprise applications, server software, full fledged gui applicaitons with Flash, unlike you can do with Java.

Would Java kill Flash if it ran as seamlessly in a browser as Flash? I would say so. The technology behind Java is built on a solid sustainable foundation, while Flash is a closed source solution that is been sold off between companies many times, remade etc. Any mentally normal developer would choose Java over Flash if a) it ran just as Flash does b) has all the editing tools Flash has.

I'm surprised, that a technology that is not designed to be as Flash is, can still do what Flash has been designed and polished to do.

Give Sun couple of years, or 2 major Java releases, to make Java run seamlessly (and translaccel/aa-accel built-in!) in a browser, and we'll have a Flash killer.


The situation today is just an example of a technologically inferior product defeating a technologically superior product for the same old reasons, mainly user interaction.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macromedia_Flash

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Offline keldon85

Senior Member


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« Reply #29 - Posted 2007-07-23 13:41:27 »

The situation today is just an example of a technologically inferior product defeating a technologically superior product for the same old reasons, mainly user interaction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macromedia_Flash
That's why I say they got lucky, although worse is better! Flash was terribly slow for years, and I ran everything on low quality until a few years ago. But its strength (I believe) has more to do with attracting more newbie game makers, spawning more games than Java and taking over the on-line gaming market. That and the graphical effects for web pages made flash a "cool thing". Then you have youTube and every other website using Flash for their video streaming, yet you can do the same with Java - but better. In fact in Java you can stream any format you like, yet such features were never used.

If I were sun and wanted to get Java installed, I would partner with google to get them using Java on YouTube and google video. Then encourage others to use it for their web servers by creating streaming without server compatibility, i.e. it streams via loading many smaller files via FTP or something.

Oh yeah, and do the same with having mySpace use Java for (a) converting the formats, and (b) streaming the audio. Plus they can attack other markets, such as all the new picture slide shows!

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