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  Adobe/Flash wins yet again when it comes to user experience...  (Read 8283 times)
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Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #30 - Posted 2007-07-13 17:16:21 »

Signed applications != trustworthy applications

Anyone can sign a application, distribute it, and it might as well delete all your files or add a keylogger/trojan like you described. You have no idea.[...]

Ehm... with a proper cert I know who you are and where you're living. Do you really want that someone burns your house down? Of course I would also DoS your servers while I'm at it. Smiley

edit: Oh yea... and of course I would sue you as well Wink

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #31 - Posted 2007-07-13 17:26:29 »

Ehm... with a proper cert I know who you are and where you're living. Do you really want that someone burns your house down? Of course I would also DoS your servers while I'm at it. Smiley

edit: Oh yea... and of course I would sue you as well Wink

Good luck with that Smiley I'm in Iceland btw, our laws are really poor regarding computers/internet and stuff Wink Most likely you would be thrown to jail for trying to DoS me or burn down my house Smiley

And don't tell me those certs can't be "faked", that is, I can easily steal the identity of someone, credit card... buy some cert and do some stuff.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #32 - Posted 2007-07-13 18:14:42 »

Quote
And don't tell me those certs can't be "faked", that is, I can easily steal the identity of someone, credit card... buy some cert and do some stuff
Of course. You can also steal a passport but that doesn't make a passport useless.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline brackeen

Junior Member





« Reply #33 - Posted 2007-07-13 18:19:14 »

Quote
The ideal solution would be if OpenGL access was included in the sandbox
I agree. The main reason I don't do JOGL or LWJGL applets is to avoid the trust dialog box. Signed apps (including JWS) are one thing, but no should have to choose whether or not to trust a game embedded on a web page.
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #34 - Posted 2007-07-13 18:21:43 »

App signing is fine, but vendors deliberately create such vivid warnings to force developers to pay for a license.

Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #35 - Posted 2007-07-13 18:57:36 »

I agree. The main reason I don't do JOGL or LWJGL applets is to avoid the trust dialog box. Signed apps (including JWS) are one thing, but no should have to choose whether or not to trust a game embedded on a web page.

The real issue is that the very latest drivers for some cards are massively broken. If the card is slightly older... it simply won't work and you can't make it work.

Yes, I'm of course talking about ATI.

(Standalone apps work fine tho.)

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #36 - Posted 2007-07-13 20:37:57 »

Good luck with that Smiley I'm in Iceland btw, our laws are really poor regarding computers/internet and stuff Wink Most likely you would be thrown to jail for trying to DoS me or burn down my house Smiley

And don't tell me those certs can't be "faked", that is, I can easily steal the identity of someone, credit card... buy some cert and do some stuff.
afaik Iceland trades with the outside world and thus is subject to international law and european law. And I doubt iceland would turn in to an autonomic country just because you wanted to be a jackass. And even if they did CA's, can retract certificates isp can be black listed.
 
Certificates are bound to urls requiring to also have control over the site or a/the dns server.

And while anyone can sign, or rather create a cert and, sign his applet. only does who can make a 3 way handshake get accepted without warning, thats you can a third party. A third party that you choose to trust(or rather microsoft/mozilla foundation). those 3rd parties don't hand them out indiscriminately.

also note that if they have access to the webserver there a loads of other, easier ways, to go. Like replacing downloadable applications, drivers..
no, signed applets are probably one of the more trustworthy code that this computer has seen.

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #37 - Posted 2007-07-13 21:40:50 »

and probably JOGL be included in the JRE.
How on earth is ogl access going to fix all of your problems? -  what about all the other stuff you need that has nothing to do with OpenGL?

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #38 - Posted 2007-07-13 22:09:08 »

How on earth is ogl access going to fix all of your problems? -  what about all the other stuff you need that has nothing to do with OpenGL?

Well, while it's not _the_ problem, it's part of the problem. There is a reason why people want to run their games opengl accelerated, it's because they run a lot faster. You cannot run it accelerated in the sandbox, and thus you need that dialog to scare away players... both webstart and applet. Besides, the download size of the OGL library is relatively large (both JOGL and LWJGL), especially when the game should load promptly up.

I don't know the answers to all problems regarding embedded web applications/games, all I can describe is how I think it's supposed to work... or at least how it should work for the user.
Consider you had the following requirements:
1) game should load fast
2) game should run fast
3) user should not be annoyed by dialogs, slowdown of the pc or anything "happening" other than the game loading and starting
Would you select Java to make all your games in when you're working for a company running a multi-million dollar game portal site?

The truth is, the webgames industry has become HUGE. Java is missing out, I would be surprised if it had 2% marketshare. All Java has to show for are a few games that dedicated Java developers have put together, which is great (don't get me wrong), but more is needed. What is it that makes Flash so successful for games?

Perhapse one of the problems with Java is that it's not a "Web Plugin" like Flash is, which is designed for embedded web applications.


I'm not playing the "blame-game", but I do think Sun needs to learn by example if it intends to participate in embedded web applications market.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
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Offline 2playgames

Junior Member





« Reply #39 - Posted 2007-07-13 23:51:51 »

Quote
What is it that makes Flash so successful for games?
certainly not it's technical superiority. a schoolmate just finished an interactive Flash application and he swears nevers to use it again

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #40 - Posted 2007-07-14 00:53:41 »

How on earth did Java lose? I remember when we would go onto the net at school and play Java games on the net. There were just so many Java game sites ... and then flash came out. It was far too slow and everything had to be played on low quality to get a decent frame rate, but it had interesting games.

I even remember the many sites with mini Java applet games (such as the ever so successful SodaRace), but Sun lost their entire marketshare overnight.

I think they got it wrong for a few reasons:
 - bad documentation on the correct way to draw pixels. This is my number 1 nag of Java, even now they will tell you wrong ways to draw bitmap based games
 - no gaming API; and though ActionScript doesn't quite have one, it gives full support for what the programmer basically wants to do. So to get a basic game requires much less code, just move the bitmap - you can almost code it without any programming knowledge.

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 15
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #41 - Posted 2007-07-14 01:10:56 »

Maybe flash proved that java is not the perfect tool for these small web games that made flash so successful?

Another (bigger) issue is probably the fact that MS quite successfully screwed java by first making an inferiour, incompatible version of java available everywhere, and then abandon it. So basically, java applets either stopped working because java wasn't installed anymore, or they stopped working because of incompatibilities of the MS VM for which many games were specifically written.
At the time Sun's JRE had to replace MS' VM , it was also not very well integrated with browsers.

Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #42 - Posted 2007-07-14 01:18:39 »

Yes, flash is more straight forward to download being a plugin at heart. There are more Java developers than Flash programmers, but when it comes to games it's a different picture. Nearly all of the flash programmers are either interested in games, or website GUI's; with Java that figure is spread over all of the different uses.

Offline thijs

Junior Member




Lava games rock!


« Reply #43 - Posted 2007-07-14 10:26:25 »

Argh, and messages like this dont help its popularity neither:
http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/security/0,39044215,62028389,00.htm

 Undecided

<a href="http://www.dzzd.net">3DzzD!</a>
<a href="http://www.arcazoid.com">Arcazoid!</a>
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #44 - Posted 2007-07-14 11:04:25 »

Argh, and messages like this dont help its popularity neither:
http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/security/0,39044215,62028389,00.htm

 Undecided

I doubt this would do anything to its popularity to be honest. There are far more security flaws in Windows, and look what they've done!!!

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #45 - Posted 2007-07-14 14:58:46 »

I doubt this would do anything to its popularity to be honest. There are far more security flaws in Windows, and look what they've done!!!

1000 flaws create an acceptance, 1 flaw creates a frenzy Smiley

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline brackeen

Junior Member





« Reply #46 - Posted 2007-07-14 18:31:42 »

Quote
Argh, and messages like this dont help its popularity neither:
http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/security/0,39044215,62028389,00.htm

It looks like that zdnet article was based on incorrect info - the issue was already patched:
http://news.com.com/Java+flaw+poses+widespread+security+threat/2100-1002_3-6196493.html
Offline g666

Junior Member





« Reply #47 - Posted 2007-07-14 19:52:11 »

am i the only one that thinks the adobe one is no more pretty or informative than the java one? (the app launcher rather than the runtime installer)

desperately seeking sanity
Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #48 - Posted 2007-07-14 19:56:21 »

"elk voordeel heeft zijn nadeel, elk nadeel heeft zijn voordeel"
might have gotten the qoute a bit wrong but thats pritty much it. (qoute from Johan Cruijff, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Cruijff ) For the non dutch spreakers, this means as much as 'every advantage has a disadvantage and vice versa'.

What I'm getting at is that if only we had more security flaws, the update cycles would be faster, java wouldn't get restrained as much and ppl would true;y realise how much stuff runs java today.

"It would be an extremely difficult and laborious process for an organization trying to patch Java Runtime across the enterprise," he said.

ever wondered why windows update is so painless?

and I kinda agree with g666 to somw extend. (as in it doesn't me we shouldn't be aware or assert stuff like this because it's 'adiquate')

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #49 - Posted 2007-07-14 21:26:39 »

Argh, and messages like this dont help its popularity neither:
http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/security/0,39044215,62028389,00.htm

 Undecided

See:
http://www.java-gaming.org/forums/index.php?topic=16836.0

It's old news... totally blown out of proportions. They made it sound like there is something fundamentally wrong with Java, but in fact some native image parsing lib had some buffer overflow. That kind of thing happens quite often with C/C++.

Besides... it's the same with flash. You have to update it regularly if you want to be on the save side.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #50 - Posted 2007-07-20 17:05:39 »

Well, I ain't going to pay even $10 a year for some license, to be able to publish a small game.

No, it's to publish *infinitely many* games. The licenses proves you are who you say you are tied to a domain, it is not tied to any single game/product. Just publish all your games on one domain and you're fine.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #51 - Posted 2007-07-20 17:05:56 »

Good luck with that Smiley I'm in Iceland btw, our laws are really poor regarding computers/internet and stuff Wink Most likely you would be thrown to jail for trying to DoS me or burn down my house Smiley

And don't tell me those certs can't be "faked", that is, I can easily steal the identity of someone, credit card... buy some cert and do some stuff.

Actually, it's pretty hard.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #52 - Posted 2007-08-03 11:51:06 »

Just got an automatic update, and was delighted to see this popup:

That's much much better than what it used to use. Nice to see these seemingly small but IMHO and IME important and valuable improvements in java 6's GUI Smiley.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline g666

Junior Member





« Reply #53 - Posted 2007-08-03 12:18:00 »

Just got an automatic update, and was delighted to see this popup:

That's much much better than what it used to use. Nice to see these seemingly small but IMHO and IME important and valuable improvements in java 6's GUI Smiley.

heh, when i got that i was thinking how poor it still was. Of course im just being pedantic, but...
-it stalls on copying new files for ~5 minutes, perhaps it should say downloading files, with a separate progress bar
-the text is somewhat hilariously overenthusiatic
-the "Visit java.com" is not actually a link Tongue

in short then, it is better, but lacks attention to detail.

desperately seeking sanity
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 613
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #54 - Posted 2007-08-03 13:45:42 »

Sun is really trying to emphasize on the Java brand. It kinda gets in the way, and looks foolish. Java is not the holy grail, and should not be marketed as such. The text is written in such a way you stop reading halfway, if not sooner. It's the perfect example of marketing gone bad. It could as well have stated "Java is fantastic! If it wasn't for Java, you wouldn't be looking at this progress-bar, w00t!", as people stop reading after the 'fantastic' part.

<rant>
Just like the Java systray message whenever you stumble on a page with an applet. What would you think of a website that window.alert()'s you that AJAX is being used to dynamicly update its content, or when every website with Flash embedded, would cause such a notification, there would be huge protest and Adobe would revert it withing a few days if not hours. The end-user doesn't give a damn about the technology, it's about the product. Such notification are plain annoying, technology should be hidden from the end-user.
</rant>

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #55 - Posted 2007-08-03 13:53:02 »

Well Sun need to put their branding somewhere (from their point of view). I mean Flash have your right click!

Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 613
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #56 - Posted 2007-08-03 13:57:43 »

I've yet to see the first lightbulp with the brand etched in the glass.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #57 - Posted 2007-08-03 14:27:18 »

Sun is really trying to emphasize on the Java brand. It kinda gets in the way, and looks foolish. Java is not the holy grail, and should not be marketed as such. The text is written in such a way you stop reading halfway, if not sooner. It's the perfect example of marketing gone bad. It could as well have stated "Java is fantastic! If it wasn't for Java, you wouldn't be looking at this progress-bar, w00t!", as people stop reading after the 'fantastic' part.

...
technology should be hidden from the end-user.

I'm sorry, but I get the impression you aren't that experienced with consumer-marketing and brand awareness (I'm no expert, but I've made a living out of consumer and viral marketing, and worked very closely with people who are experts at it).

The text on there is actually really good at appealling to the ill-informed who don't know what java is and are suspicious and a little afraid of it. Peoplelike you aren't in the target audience of readers and don't need to read it, and won't have any positive or negative effect on the brand whatever goes in that box. You care more about performance, stability, usability, availability, etc.

Saying "Java is fantastic, w00t!" is *exactly* what Sun needs to do more of - they haven't been doing it anywhere near enough and it's cost java a lot in mindshare. Mindshare among non-technical people is often what drives both large projects (with senior managers who don't understand tech and don't care) and novel projects (with creatives who don't understand tech and don't care). Microsoft showed over the course of many years that it's not the best tech that wins, it's the best "marketing to the person who signs off on the budget" that wins.

IMHO.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline ryanm

Senior Member


Projects: 1


Used to be bleb


« Reply #58 - Posted 2007-08-03 14:36:15 »

Marketing text like that always angers me right up.

"...experience the power of Java..." Power? To do what? End world hunger? Cure cancer? Flash up windows that demand my attention while not telling me anything that I remotely care about, along with a stark command to "visit Java.com" without any suggestion as to why?

From what I can learn from that dialog the only power Java has is to give me the dry heaves.
Offline DzzD
« Reply #59 - Posted 2007-08-03 14:55:16 »

may be sun should make this next loader as simple as that:

___________________________________________________________
you dislike this GUI ? you are a talented designer ?  just send us your GUI,
                           $10000 for the sun GUI contest winner ?
___________________________________________________________
                                                  Loading....  Wink
___________________________________________________________

design society will no answer, but thousand of talented designer will, and sun will gain the best GUI ever.

I said that as it is a joke, but some compagny use to do this or similar.....

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