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  Adobe/Flash wins yet again when it comes to user experience...  (Read 8277 times)
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Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Posted 2007-07-12 14:36:16 »

Have you seen the current installer for Adobe's java-replacement (AIR) ?



yummy!

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline 2playgames

Junior Member





« Reply #1 - Posted 2007-07-12 15:06:29 »

can you post a screenshot of the equivalent in java?

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 5


I always win!


« Reply #2 - Posted 2007-07-12 15:45:11 »

Interesting...

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #3 - Posted 2007-07-12 15:58:55 »

That is indeed much nicer than the rather sterile Java version. I wish Sun would get some real UI designers in to do this stuff. Especially do something to the Metal L&F. Like, throw it away, and replace it with Alloy.

Cas Smiley

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 51
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #4 - Posted 2007-07-12 16:07:23 »

If my past webstart experience is anything to go by, a large number of people will see the big red warning text and refuse to go any further. (Although it is presented in a slightly less scary form than webstart).

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline elias

Senior Member





« Reply #5 - Posted 2007-07-12 16:17:23 »

IMNSHO, I'd go for removing the thinking that led to the "Closed, will not fix" state of this one:

http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=5059506

Showing a java icon in the system tray when even the tiniest applet is started on a web page is not going to help the java brand or whatever. Get out of the way of the actual applet/webstart application, please! And what's up with "This is not a bug.  Java cup icon provides users with easy access to java console, info about version of java they are currently running, visit java.sun.com web page, etc."? Some people might actually want to reserve the system tray for important stuff, you know. Sadly, java is definitely not the only application that spams the system tray, and I can only be relieved that I'm running an OS where it's considerably harder and considered bad form to clutter the equivalent of the system tray, without the user's consent. I do worry about the customers of our games, especially now that we're experimenting with a more web-ish form of distribution and thus can't control the appearance of the tray icon.

(To keep with the thread subject: Flash got this right, too)

 - elias

Offline 2playgames

Junior Member





« Reply #6 - Posted 2007-07-12 16:34:42 »

Indeed, it would be better to build this access to the console etc. into the browser menu. At the very least let the applet programmer decide whether or not to show the icon.

Offline elias

Senior Member





« Reply #7 - Posted 2007-07-12 16:44:17 »

Indeed, it would be better to build this access to the console etc. into the browser menu. At the very least let the applet programmer decide whether or not to show the icon.

That, or through the control panel, as the bug points out. The stuff you can do from the icon is very much in the control panel category.

 - elias

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #8 - Posted 2007-07-12 17:00:10 »

IMNSHO, I'd go for removing the thinking that led to the "Closed, will not fix" state of this one:

http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=5059506

Showing a java icon in the system tray when even the tiniest applet is started on a web page is not going to help the java brand or whatever. Get out of the way of the actual applet/webstart application, please! And what's up with "This is not a bug.  Java cup icon provides users with easy access to java console, info about version of java they are currently running, visit java.sun.com web page, etc."? Some people might actually want to reserve the system tray for important stuff, you know. Sadly, java is definitely not the only application that spams the system tray, and I can only be relieved that I'm running an OS where it's considerably harder and considered bad form to clutter the equivalent of the system tray, without the user's consent. I do worry about the customers of our games, especially now that we're experimenting with a more web-ish form of distribution and thus can't control the appearance of the tray icon.

(To keep with the thread subject: Flash got this right, too)

 - elias

Completely understand the points here, and don't disagree with them necessarily.  The big difference between the way Sun has approached Java vs. Adobe and Flash is that Sun has been trying to build a consumer demand for Java.  Flash does not.  I would venture to say that 95% of consumers don't know what Flash really is nor do they seek out Flash specific content.  Java has a much greater brand recognition among consumers.  Believe it or not, Java as a technology has the same level of consumer recognition as Nike does. So the goals have been different.

Look, I won't make excuses for Sun here, save one.  The management that controls Java now, and for less than a year so far, makes it a totally new ballgame.  Believe me when I say that this group KNOWS what is driving Java on the desktop.  One exec even stated to me, "You're right, games are one of the biggest uses for Java in overall consumer usage." (Or something to that effect).    I'm not saying that everything is going to change overnight, but I do think that the re-engagement of the consumer and media markets that was demonstrated at JavaOne this year was great.

As for the system tray being cluttered with a Java icon, that only occurs while the app is running, right?  After you exit the icon goes away.  Not a biggie IMHO.

-Chris

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 51
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #9 - Posted 2007-07-12 17:08:31 »

For comparative purposes, heres a fantastic example of Sun gui design at work (from a previous thread):





 Roll Eyes

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline elias

Senior Member





« Reply #10 - Posted 2007-07-12 17:20:49 »

ChrisM: No biggie compared to a permanent icon, however compared to the security dialog, I think it is a biggie. I can only speak for myself personally, but I frown upon applications taking unnecessary liberties, like a mere game showing an icon in the system tray (willingly or not).

I do have high hopes for the new ways to do business at Sun, however, and I hope that the GPL license will keep features only benefitting SUN as a company away from java.

 - elias

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #11 - Posted 2007-07-12 18:52:36 »

For comparative purposes, heres a fantastic example of Sun gui design at work (from a previous thread):





 Roll Eyes

Best
Wallpaper
Ever
In
A
Thread
On
JGO.

I am so stressing over the new NiGHTS game for the Wii, it's not funny.

-Chris

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #12 - Posted 2007-07-12 19:28:18 »

The Sun dialog shows exactly the same information as the Flash one, it just doesn't look very pretty or modern, is all.

BTW, Orangy - in your experience if users see the red triangle and click CANCEL, that's good. They need to be educated only to allow signed applications to run.

Cas Smiley

Offline brackeen

Junior Member





« Reply #13 - Posted 2007-07-12 19:36:34 »

The dialog looks nice, and although Adobe beats Sun in design and user experience all the time, having a dialog with a big red "X" when you try to install is actually a bad user experience. Although this may be Pownce's fault rather than Adobe's.

Edit: In other words, it would be a better user experience to have a green "ok to install" image or no dialog at all.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #14 - Posted 2007-07-12 22:38:12 »

The management that controls Java now, and for less than a year so far, makes it a totally new ballgame.  Believe me when I say that this group KNOWS what is driving Java on the desktop.  One exec even stated to me, "You're right, games are one of the biggest uses for Java in overall consumer usage." (Or something to that effect).    I'm not saying that everything is going to change overnight

Great! I look forward to seeing the increasing pace of concrete benefits of the new arrangement.

Until then, I'll still throw out datapoints like AIR as a heads-up: this is what the consumer experience is like, be aware. I would prefer that the java experience were better, I would do anything to achieve that (because it's cheaper for me to develop and deploy in java Wink)...

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #15 - Posted 2007-07-13 00:07:22 »

I disagree, brackeen... I believe that unsigned applications are the scourge of the internet. Signed ones should install and run silently unless you specifically set it up so that you want to see the dialog. Unsigned ones should always display a scary dialog.

Cas Smiley

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 5


I always win!


« Reply #16 - Posted 2007-07-13 01:07:40 »

I disagree, brackeen... I believe that unsigned applications are the scourge of the internet. Signed ones should install and run silently unless you specifically set it up so that you want to see the dialog. Unsigned ones should always display a scary dialog.

Cas Smiley

I wouldn't even know where to start to get my application properly signed. You have to buy some $10000 key thingie? Smiley



Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #17 - Posted 2007-07-13 01:39:55 »

I think the whole signing thing has been done poorly. Since everything is unsigned - even with official drivers on Windows XP - users get into the habit of ignoring these messages, hence reducing the value of it. In Java Web Start practically everything is unsigned that I have seen it for, so if something harmful comes to the user they are more likely to run it.

Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #18 - Posted 2007-07-13 02:43:16 »

I wouldn't even know where to start to get my application properly signed. You have to buy some $10000 key thingie? Smiley

It's around $100/year. The price is pretty ridiculous for what they are actually offering.

There used to be certs for $20/year, which were good enough for Java stuff, but those certificate authorities scrapped em. Yea, right... why should they ask for $20 if they can milk $100 out of you? Verisign, Thawte etc really deserve some regulative slapping.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline markush

Senior Newbie




Plöp!


« Reply #19 - Posted 2007-07-13 10:06:40 »

It's around $100/year. The price is pretty ridiculous for what they are actually offering.

There used to be certs for $20/year, which were good enough for Java stuff, but those certificate authorities scrapped em. Yea, right... why should they ask for $20 if they can milk $100 out of you? Verisign, Thawte etc really deserve some regulative slapping.

There is also a free certificate that can be used. It won't display your name though, it displays "Thawte Freemail member" instead. But otherwise its a full certificate.

See: http://www.dallaway.com/acad/webstart/
Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 2


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #20 - Posted 2007-07-13 10:38:09 »

hardly usefull for comercial deployment ...

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 51
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #21 - Posted 2007-07-13 10:52:51 »

BTW, Orangy - in your experience if users see the red triangle and click CANCEL, that's good. They need to be educated only to allow signed applications to run.

Well I've seen people who as soon as they see any sort of "warning: may harm your computer" (which IIRC webstart shows even with signed certificates) instantly click cancel. Annoyingly, these are the same people who'll happily download and run any random exe they stumble across without a moments thought.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #22 - Posted 2007-07-13 11:44:22 »

I thought Vista stuck up a dialog now if you tried to install unsigned .exes?

Cas Smiley

Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 5


I always win!


« Reply #23 - Posted 2007-07-13 11:57:43 »

Well, I ain't going to pay even $10 a year for some license, to be able to publish a small game. No freedom in that. Doesn't make sense that _you_ have to pay _them_ to publish _your_ game, that's my attitude. Signed or not, whatever you run may be a security risk. Who's to say I'm not going to "do harm" to some computer clients even with my "signed" application? Are they going to review my code? What is the real difference really between unsigned and signed? Seems to me there is only more hassle with signed stuff.

This concept is mind boggling. Perhaps I'm not very familiar with this concept, so I'm probably ignorant about how it works.


All I want to do is write games, they should load & run FAST, and the user should not be aware of any Java loading, scary unsigned/signed dialogs etc.

Heck, I just started a Java WebStart game, I counted the dialogs and the user (un)experience:
- First the browser dialog (Save as... or Run) for the jnlp file. (Yes, I know I can define so it runs always)
- Second, I could clearly hear my computer booting up some Java processes..., Java icon appears in system tray! (took a 2-3 seconds)
- Third, Java WebStart loading dialog appears...stays there until everything is fully loaded
- Fourth, Some nice orange Java applet logo showing the download status (although I'd like to be able to replace this with my own)
- Fifth, one of those "scary" dialog pops up, "Unsigned" bla bla bla.... I choose Ok.
- Sixth, some more loading...
- Seventh, the scary dialog pops up again!! Smiley I choose Ok.
- Eight, finally the game can start loading...and I'm in!

The user might think by now he's got a new Operating System after such a operation Smiley

With Flash?
- Nice looking (custom) loading indicator for few secs.... bamm... you're playing!

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #24 - Posted 2007-07-13 13:53:44 »

Although at first I thought the licensing thing was a scam to extort money, in this day and age I have finally figured out its value.

Any fool can write a malicious applet or JWS download with ease. A single click on a webpage and BANG! recursive delete on C:\. I could do it now, to you, for amusement. Worse, someone else could post a link to Treasure Tomb but in fact it was just a link to a program that deletes everything on C:\. You might scoff but this can happen and it will happen. That's how all of these viruses, trojans and worms come to exist in the first place - if someone can take advantage of something, they will. When you think about it there is virtually no limit to what a JWS application can do, all from a single mouseclick. Why aren't you scared? You should be. What's to stop some blogger finding a link to my alpha, decompiling it, and adding in a bit of code that writes a .exe keylogger into the Windows Run registry? Nothing except the fact that if anyone tries it - the scary dialog will appear.

When the code is signed, you know it's from me. If it f**ks your machine up or steals your bank details, you can find out where I live and take legal action.

So if you're serious about giving people code to run on the internet, buy a certificate. It's pocket money after all to get a proper one. Otherwise, you're not serious about it, which means it's for forum mates and friends, and we don't care about the scary dialog because we know you.

See? How hard is this to grasp?

Cas Smiley

Offline keldon85

Senior Member


Medals: 1



« Reply #25 - Posted 2007-07-13 14:10:25 »

But from the users perspective it makes no difference. Half of everything is unsigned so they either ignore them or don't run anything. Even drivers for hardware from major manufacturers is not signed, so the whole signing thing is generally useless.

For a user to see an unsigned version of your game and know not to use it, they must first know that your game is in fact signed and that the message indicates they are using a phoney one. Even sodaplay's soda constructor is unsigned!!!

Offline 2playgames

Junior Member





« Reply #26 - Posted 2007-07-13 14:12:20 »

That's a good point Cas, but then the contents of the dialog should be changed to reflect what you just said. Right now they are implying that signed applications cannot hurt your PC.

Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #27 - Posted 2007-07-13 14:14:18 »

Ye, the purpose of certs isn't about security... it's about trust, verification of your identity and integrity of the files. Eg no one could hack into your server and add a trojan dropper to your jnlps (well, he/she could... but it wouldn't work Smiley).

My identity for example isn't much of a mystery. The German law forces me to reveal it completely. But there is no indication that the files on my server are really from me. And that's where certs jump in.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 49
Projects: 5


I always win!


« Reply #28 - Posted 2007-07-13 15:23:08 »

Signed applications != trustworthy applications

Anyone can sign a application, distribute it, and it might as well delete all your files or add a keylogger/trojan like you described. You have no idea.

As long as Java Applet/WebStart games need to go out of the sandbox for greater speed, and the user has to accept it, then I don't see Java games going anywhere, at least not a real competition to Flash. The ideal solution would be if OpenGL access was included in the sandbox, and probably JOGL be included in the JRE.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline 2playgames

Junior Member





« Reply #29 - Posted 2007-07-13 15:33:08 »

Quote
As long as Java Applet/WebStart games need to go out of the sandbox for greater speed, and the user has to accept it, then I don't see Java games going anywhere, at least not a real competition to Flash. The ideal solution would be if OpenGL access was included in the sandbox, and probably JOGL be included in the JRE.
I don't think webstart is needed for professional games. Any commercial game from the shop is installed as a standalone application, and so can Java games. Applets simply aren't suited for big games (due to downloads, speed, etc.)

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