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  Still no presence in mainstream desktop game development  (Read 19289 times)
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Offline Tomas

Junior Duke




Agency9


« Reply #90 - Posted 2007-07-03 10:02:39 »

I think one intresting question is would anywone here be intrested in buying such a product ?

CTO Agency9
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 403
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #91 - Posted 2007-07-03 12:31:21 »

It's not really a "buying" kind of thing, it is, after all, just a veneer over someone else's tech.

I'd donate $100 to it. In fact I think it's high time LWJGL supported a D3D binding. Maybe we should do a donation drive to get someone to do it. I mean, I don't even want to use it, I just see a pressing need for it to become available, to enable a whole load of dependent projects.

I think ChrisM should donate some not-very-small-sum of money to the project. Like, $10k, with Sun's blessing...

Cas Smiley

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #92 - Posted 2007-07-03 12:58:36 »

A lwjgl supported dx project should be possible. I am sure elias will hate it (since it's windows only) - but we do have a chunk available for donation...

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Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #93 - Posted 2007-07-03 17:38:59 »

I started to do the DirectX binding.  I didn't want to say anything until I had something to show for it.  I am having a small problem that is hard to debug.  There is a post on LWJGL forums about it. http://lwjgl.org/forum/topics/sound-syncing-in-emulator/2363/view.html.  Once that problem is sorted out I should have something visual to show.  I developing it the same way as LWJGL.  With static accessors to the DirectX devices.  I have tentatively title it Windows Game Library for Java (WGLJ).  So, some questions.

1.  Do you want to host it under java-game-lib on sourceforge or start a new project?
2.  If anyone doesn't like the title, I am open for suggestions.
3.  Once its hosted, does anyone want to help out?
4.  Do you want it as a totaly separted library, or a section of LWJGL? (If part of LWJGL then the title doesn't matter)

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 403
Projects: 3
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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #94 - Posted 2007-07-03 18:06:56 »

What would be ideal is that it's just part of LWJGL and integrated into the existing "API agnostic" bits, eg. Display and input etc, and just distributed in a lwjgl_d3d.jar, and we'd move the OGL stuff into lwjgl_ogl.jar.

Cas Smiley

Offline noblemaster

JGO Ninja


Medals: 20
Projects: 10


Age of Conquest makes your day!


« Reply #95 - Posted 2007-07-03 18:27:00 »

Quote
I think ChrisM should donate some not-very-small-sum of money to the project. Like, $10k, with Sun's blessing...

I think that's a great idea - I believe with just little money as support for some open source developers could accomplish a lot! Port to XBox and PS anyone?

Offline keldon85

Senior Duke


Medals: 1



« Reply #96 - Posted 2007-07-03 19:05:18 »

I started to do the DirectX binding.  I didn't want to say anything until I had something to show for it.  I am having a small problem that is hard to debug.  There is a post on LWJGL forums about it. http://lwjgl.org/forum/topics/sound-syncing-in-emulator/2363/view.html.  Once that problem is sorted out I should have something visual to show.  I developing it the same way as LWJGL.  With static accessors to the DirectX devices.  I have tentatively title it Windows Game Library for Java (WGLJ).  So, some questions.

1.  Do you want to host it under java-game-lib on sourceforge or start a new project?
2.  If anyone doesn't like the title, I am open for suggestions.
3.  Once its hosted, does anyone want to help out?
4.  Do you want it as a totaly separted library, or a section of LWJGL? (If part of LWJGL then the title doesn't matter)
I personally would have just volunteered to take the bounty and pretended I hadn't started working on it. Now we all know you're almost finished I guess there's no need to "donat-ivate" you!

Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #97 - Posted 2007-07-03 20:10:56 »

I personally would have just volunteered to take the bounty and pretended I hadn't started working on it. Now we all know you're almost finished I guess there's no need to "donat-ivate" you!
Damn, hadn't thought of that.  Wink

Seriously, I am just happy to do it for the experience.  Plus if we get Java a higher profile, all the better.

Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #98 - Posted 2007-07-03 20:32:16 »

What would be ideal is that it's just part of LWJGL and integrated into the existing "API agnostic" bits, eg. Display and input etc, and just distributed in a lwjgl_d3d.jar, and we'd move the OGL stuff into lwjgl_ogl.jar.

Cas Smiley

Ok.  I'll get LWJGL out of SVN and start working on it.  I'll get the LWJGL group's opinion before I do my first commit.  Send me an email or PM me if there's anything you think I should do.  (captainjester at hotmail dot com)

Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #99 - Posted 2007-07-04 15:28:17 »

Wow, thanks CaptainJester for your self-less efforts.  Your 'actions speak louder than words' approach is impressive. 

In regards to the Direct3D C++ JNI calls, maybe the Java3D source will have your answer since I hear that it is now fully open source and it uses D3D. 

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #100 - Posted 2007-07-04 15:33:15 »

Wow, thanks CaptainJester for your self-less efforts.  Your 'actions speak louder than words' approach is impressive. 

In regards to the Direct3D C++ JNI calls, maybe the Java3D source will have your answer since I hear that it is now fully open source and it uses D3D. 

Thanks.  I'll look at that if I need to.  The problem I am having may dissappear, since I will be building it in with LWJGL.  They already have all this stuff figured out, so it may just go away.

Offline Nero

Senior Newbie





« Reply #101 - Posted 2007-07-04 15:59:36 »

CaptainJester... your work will be a blessing for all of us.
I´m very excited to see your work in a near future. It will probably help us to deploy our games in windows assuring that almost ever user could run it without problems.  Smiley

- Nero
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #102 - Posted 2007-07-04 16:43:07 »

Ok.  I'll get LWJGL out of SVN and start working on it.  I'll get the LWJGL group's opinion before I do my first commit.  Send me an email or PM me if there's anything you think I should do.  (captainjester at hotmail dot com)

That's fantastic news!  Cheesy
I'll see if I can work on the OpenGL-D3D wrapper when the binding starts getting results.

Offline zingbat

Senior Duke




Java games rock!


« Reply #103 - Posted 2007-07-05 15:28:48 »

It's nice to see java gaming moving forward. If this binding gets finish i will certainly switch from jogl to lwjgl.
Offline Mr_Light

Senior Duke


Medals: 1


shiny.


« Reply #104 - Posted 2007-07-05 18:27:08 »

It's not really a "buying" kind of thing, it is, after all, just a veneer over someone else's tech.

I'd donate $100 to it. In fact I think it's high time LWJGL supported a D3D binding. Maybe we should do a donation drive to get someone to do it. I mean, I don't even want to use it, I just see a pressing need for it to become available, to enable a whole load of dependent projects.

I think ChrisM should donate some not-very-small-sum of money to the project. Like, $10k, with Sun's blessing...

Cas Smiley
basically what cas said. I would have no direct advantage to it's existence. I think if we spend the time that we used to discus the use of it here and used that time to write software we've would have already had enough money to hire someone.

It's got me thinking perhaps we could do a java-gaming.org - summer of code. We can't apply to googles one because we don't have someone to mentor(I'm guessing) then again perhaps chris could fix something and just write down the hours on Jonathan's time. Because it also attracts a lot of students it could spread the hey-java-isn't-so-bad-not-bad-at-all mindset.

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline jfelrod1960

Junior Duke




Use the source Luke, use the source!!!


« Reply #105 - Posted 2007-07-05 23:32:23 »

IMHO, I think that with the great engine technology that is written in C++ (Unreal Engine 3, Natural Motion, Havok, Ageia, Kynogon, Trinigy, etc.), Java has no way to compete (make it into the mainstream) unless we (Java game developers) create great engines.  So many of us are focus on making games and not improving the Java game technology.  There are a couple of good engines written in Java (Slick, jmonkeyengine, both written on top of LWJGL) but there is no (comercial strength) engines dedicated to physics, AI, animation, etc.

Improve the Java game technology and you will get results.

Let me put my tough skin lotion on!
Jeff

Jeffrey F. Elrod
Complexsive Systems
Offline keldon85

Senior Duke


Medals: 1



« Reply #106 - Posted 2007-07-06 06:45:19 »

Very true, that's what I was saying earlier  Cool

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 403
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #107 - Posted 2007-07-06 11:15:41 »

Good. And so it shall be.

Cas Smiley

Offline zingbat

Senior Duke




Java games rock!


« Reply #108 - Posted 2007-07-06 14:54:14 »

A lot has already been done but there's still a lot to do.


[size=16pt]Commercial and Support[/size]

  • OpenGL support (check)
  • DirectX support (missing)
  • Good graphics engine with support for multiple renderers (check)
  • Separate input API that allows easy integration of input devices over several platforms (check)
  • Separate sound support for multiple platforms (check)
  • XBox and PS3 availability (missing)

[size=16pt]Technical[/size]

  • Math api (check)
  • Algorithms and data structures (check)
  • Render engine (check)
  • Scenegraph (check)
  • Shaders and materials (check)
  • Animation support (don't know about this)
  • Basic collision and physics support (check)
  • Rag dolls support (don't know about this)
  • Terrain managers like speedtree (don't know about this)
  • Facial expression software integrated with animation (don't know about this)
  • Face generators (don't know about this)
  • AI support with tools like JClips and Jess. (check)
  • Input (check)
  • Sound (check)
  • Video (don't know about this)
  • Network support for games (i suppose so but this isn't an area i'm very interested in so can't say anything)
  • Database centric data (check)
  • XML centric data (check)

[size=16pt]Media Support[/size]

  • Collada support in a separate and independent API that all can profit from (don't know about this)
  • Collada skeletal animation (don't know about this)
  • X3D support in a separate and independent API that all can profit from (xj3d?)
  • Hanim support (don't know about this)
  • Other animation formats (don't know about this)
  • Basic loaders for obj, 3ds (check)
  • Image loaders (check)
  • Sound and stream loaders (check)
  • Movie loaders (don't know about this)

[size=16pt]Development[/size]

  • The Java language and it's API. (check)
  • Eclipse is a great tool for Java development. Better than anything in the C++ world. (check)
  • We have excellent Eclipse plugins for profiling, unit tests, documentation, etc (check)
  • Profiling tools for OpenGL in Java programs (don't know about this)
  • Profiling tools for DirectX (missing)

[size=16pt]Game Editors and Tools[/size]

  • Eclipse platform can be used to build game editors and other tools. SWT also supports LWJGL. (check)
  • A minimal game editor to assemble a scene and assign game properties to objects. (Blender?)
  • A game editor similar to The Elderscrolls Construction Set for sandbox games (optional)
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 403
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #109 - Posted 2007-07-06 16:19:07 »

WRT profiling - just use one of the various existing profilers that insert themselves betwixt drivers and applications.

Cas Smiley

Offline Nero

Senior Newbie





« Reply #110 - Posted 2007-07-06 17:26:38 »

Network Support I believe Darkstar will handle any game server situation. Doesn´t need to be a MMO.
Offline Mr_Light

Senior Duke


Medals: 1


shiny.


« Reply #111 - Posted 2007-07-06 22:53:58 »

Perhaps it would be usefull to ask some 'heavyweights' outside the javaworld what they are missing.

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline keldon85

Senior Duke


Medals: 1



« Reply #112 - Posted 2007-07-07 06:51:20 »

Maybe..

Reason 1: Java spent too long without these features and people have got used to the idea that it is not suitable!
Reason 2: Everyone still believes the Java myths
Reason 3: People got scared away when they followed all the wrong instructions on drawing pixels, so when they came to writing games they found it was too slow and assumed it was because Java was slow

Offline 2playgames

Junior Duke





« Reply #113 - Posted 2007-07-07 09:54:04 »

Quote
Everyone still believes the Java myths
i defintely see that in some of my teachers at shool Sad

Offline keldon85

Senior Duke


Medals: 1



« Reply #114 - Posted 2007-07-07 10:16:40 »

Well both Microsoft, Borland and Sun created their IDE's that run entirely within a runtime environment so it's got to mean something. Maybe an open source Java graphics editor that can rival The Gimp with good performance might be the proof of the pudding.

Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #115 - Posted 2007-07-07 11:44:34 »

i defintely see that in some of my teachers at shool Sad

I work programming business Java apps and the sad part is, some people I work with, that also program in Java, think that Java is slow.  Though they have not seen any proof.

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #116 - Posted 2007-07-08 10:54:48 »

Well, I think that desktop applications such as IDEs and the popular java P2P and Torrent clients are not really good examples to show off java's performance as they are memory hogs compared to their native counterparts. Java really doesn't shine in that area as much (yet?).
For showing off performance and suitability for games I usually point them to http://home.halden.net/tombr/squareheads/squareheads.html.

Offline renanse

Junior Duke




Intelligence is light to a dark world.


« Reply #117 - Posted 2007-07-09 15:36:29 »

Having directx support in lwjgl would be *really* great and something I personally would like to contribute to in some fashion.  Can we start an official forum section at the lwjgl.org forums for it?  Maybe a donate link (if that makes sense)?

Renanse  (ruh-NON-say)
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 403
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #118 - Posted 2007-07-09 15:42:07 »

Sure, bring it up on the lwjgl forums over there. Matzon will sort it out.

Cas Smiley

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #119 - Posted 2007-07-09 16:11:50 »

done:
http://lwjgl.org/forum/boards/java-3d/14/view.html

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