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  Understanding Sun  (Read 8895 times)
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Offline DavidYazel

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Posted 2003-08-01 20:20:46 »


I didn't actually think they would let Java3D die on the vine.  But with Kelvin Chung and Mark Hood laid off there isn't anyone left (to my knowledge).

What is next? JavaSound?  JAI? ImageIO? Java2D?

It is one thing to develop free technologies, but Sun has generally not released source to many of their free technologies, leaving us critically dependant on them.  To take them away and not release the source seems a bit... well odd.

I am trying to figure out what the heck is going on.  They may think they are killing this one little API, but it really undermines confidence in their whole technology suite.  

And are things that bad financially at Sun that they can't afford 2 engineers on an API they spent the last 6 years developing?  That scares me even more.

David Yazel
Xith3D Project Founder
http://xith3d.dev.java.net

It may look complicated, but in the end it is just a bunch of triangles
Offline bmyers

Junior Member





« Reply #1 - Posted 2003-08-01 20:23:04 »

Where did you see info about layoffs Huh  

EDIT:  Ah, I just saw the Java3D forum post..

Is Java3D officially dead, then?  Cry

Or just brain-dead and waiting to die...

Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #2 - Posted 2003-08-01 20:30:27 »

Java3D has been dead for a while now. It will be up to us as a community to use Xith3D and similar to keep it alive and kicking. IOW, we can no longer depend on Sun to support our various interests because they are in the process of figuring out what their interests are.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #3 - Posted 2003-08-01 21:04:55 »

The announcement of official OpenGL bindings at SIGGRAPH pretty much signalled the end of Java3D support IMHO.

Laying off the last peeps on it pretty much tells the world where is stands with Sun.  Perhaps they will open source it, there was talk once.

It's funny, we would have been willing to pay for support at one point.  We put a lot of work into our loaders and support classes.

On the other hand, OpenGL 1.5 is a wonderful evolution, and we now have direct access (roughly).  Actually, OGL has gotten much higher level than it once was, and many of our components are moving to OGL fairly easily since most operations were directly on GeometryArrays and really basic graphs (Group, TransformGroup).  We have a working renderer for limited J3D scene graphs (which I swear I'll post soon! ).  Those still in J3D-land, we say start planning a migration path for your next project :-) Plus, it can run on OSX too!

Even if J3D was alive and kicking it would take year+ to get 1.5 features into it.

P.S. I got real drunk the FIRST time they laid off everyone on the J3D team something like two years ago.  When that happened Full Sail pulled the plug on our internal development for Java3D AND all Java. :-(

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #4 - Posted 2003-08-02 05:15:27 »

All I can say is, if you ever totally understand Sun, explain it to me :/

JK

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline Herkules

Senior Member




Friendly fire isn't friendly!


« Reply #5 - Posted 2003-08-02 12:23:54 »

I chose Java3D thinking it is a well supported API from a big company that is stable enough to form a community where lots of useful stuff comes from. And first it seemed to work (loaders, j3d.org, Mark and Kelvin on the list...)

Now, there maybe are things like Xith3D which are single-person efforts. That's a big difference! (Although it doesn't say anything about the quality!)

What about a clear strategy that is reliably followed?

DX, DX3, DX5, DX7, DX8, DX9, ......

HARDCODE    --     DRTS/FlyingGuns/JPilot/JXInput  --    skype me: joerg.plewe
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #6 - Posted 2003-08-02 15:38:46 »

Unfortunately in this day and age, the strategy is dictated by money - and Sun still doesn't get it. That's why I wouldn't have supported JOGL unless it was open source and I won't support their new JSR until it becomes open source. Actually, I may never support it - just adding the capability to JOGL Smiley

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline benny

Junior Member




Java rocks! But then again anime rocks too!


« Reply #7 - Posted 2003-08-02 23:13:04 »

Quote
What about a clear strategy that is reliably followed?DX, DX3, DX5, DX7, DX8, DX9, ......


Don't you tell me that when I finally get to understand Java that I will have to use Microsoft crap.  Angry For the love of God!. Please. I wanted to learn Java so that I can escape my dependence on Windows not depend on it even more. Besides putting DirectX bindings into Java would just make it platform dependent on Windows (shudder).

But OpenGL is really good! Supported by most operating systems and used in popular CG animation programs. And it is so much faster than DirectX in my opinion because it is capable of utilizing hardware to a better degree.

Windows XP Professional
Pentium II 450 MHz with 256 MB of SD-RAM
64 MB GeForce4 MX-440 SE

Arnold Schwarzenegger runs for governor: Lets cut violence in half with a laser guided machine gun across the barren, charred wastelands--for the children.
Offline bmyers

Junior Member





« Reply #8 - Posted 2003-08-03 02:12:02 »

Herk was just pointing out that Microsoft has a strategy for their DirectX API, and keeps coming out with upgrades.  This is one of the ways they keep getting people to develop to their APIs, by always adding the newest hardware features to the API.

Also, FWIW Java3D *does* have Direct3D bindings, in addition to OpenGL bindings -- leaves the choice of which to use up to you, but doesn't tie you to the platform.

Now if someone uses jdirect3d, that would be tying yourself to the platform!  Tongue

Zynaps
Guest
« Reply #9 - Posted 2003-08-03 07:37:00 »

Quote
Herk was just pointing out that Microsoft has a strategy for their DirectX API, and keeps coming out with upgrades. This is one of the ways they keep getting people to develop to their APIs, by always adding the newest hardware features to the API.


This "strategy" of DX isn't straight, is it? Several times the entire architecture of DX changed from one version to another. This provided work to the developers and a break to customers, whose DX Version-A games didn't run with DX Version-B.
Same with J++: it died, customers were "singing" in the rain...
Again the same with Win32 API to Win.NET: kick your Win32 knowledge and tools you've learned all the years and go for .NET: which is a Java clone "born to eliminate Java"...

I don't want to discuss MS "strategies". However I don't think one could blame company A and put euphemistically what company B does. (Aside this there's always the problem with the Imperium Microsoftanum.)

SUN supports OpenGL now and this is good, because OpenGL doesn't depend on one single company and is an industry prooven API.


P.S. I too think that it's a pity if Java3D wouldn't be developed further. :-|  You could use engines which base on "OpenGL for Java". Similar to the "normal" games market: companies use ID's engine or Epic's one or ... There too is no guarantee that ID or Epic doesn't stop business tomorrow...
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline benny

Junior Member




Java rocks! But then again anime rocks too!


« Reply #10 - Posted 2003-08-04 17:21:56 »

Good, thanks for clearing that up.  Wink phew.
Stupid Microsoft!

Does anyone find that DirectX is slower than OpenGL?

Windows XP Professional
Pentium II 450 MHz with 256 MB of SD-RAM
64 MB GeForce4 MX-440 SE

Arnold Schwarzenegger runs for governor: Lets cut violence in half with a laser guided machine gun across the barren, charred wastelands--for the children.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #11 - Posted 2003-08-04 17:23:33 »

Depends on the graphics card. Though you notice most games currently use DirectX.

Kev

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #12 - Posted 2003-08-04 18:02:57 »

Relax guys.  Trust me.  This announcement does not mean yet another API.

JK

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Who, me?


« Reply #13 - Posted 2003-08-04 18:10:45 »

Ah, the old OpenGL vs DirectX debate!  The only things I will say with confidence are:

  • Driver quality varies wildly over time, so the debate can never be cut and dry.
  • DirectX is Windows-only, OpenGL is cross-platform.
  • OpenGL is (IMHO) more readable.
  • DirectX is driven by a corporation that makes a lot of money if it succeeds; OpenGL is driven by a comittee that can get bogged down for months without any real penalty to themselves.

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #14 - Posted 2003-08-04 18:29:31 »

OpenGL also tends to be more of a compromise by the IP holders whereas DirectX just takes the best available and makes everyone else comply or fail conformance tests. (DirectX has killed more 3D hardware vendors than I care to mention)

DirectX tends to move a lot faster because few are involved in the design process and its easier to ship now and fix later. OpenGL tends to move slower because it takes some time to get agreement out of the IP owners and there isn't a standard body which makes sure an OpenGL/MiniGL implementation is accurate.

And the most important one Smiley

DirectX is on consoles - OpenGL is not... though I wish Sony would wake up and smell the market. Getting developers using a standard API between console revs means lower cost of entry and increased revenues through reuse and standardization.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #15 - Posted 2003-08-04 20:42:50 »

On all consoles?

I thought the PS2 was quite openGL like, but I may have dreamed that, as I never even thought about programming for one, let alone researching it.
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #16 - Posted 2003-08-04 23:01:28 »

Quote
OpenGL also tends to be more of a compromise by the IP holders whereas DirectX just takes the best available and makes everyone else comply or fail conformance tests.


Important distinction here being best in this case is defined as "whats best for Micrsoft's interests as they see them at that moment."

Quote

DirectX tends to move a lot faster because few are involved in the design process and its easier to ship now and fix later. OpenGL tends to move slower because it takes some time to get agreement out of the IP owners


For ARB extensions yes, but for platform specific extensions there is an extension mechanims b ywhich anybody can add functionality to their drivers without going through the ARB.

Quote

And the most important one Smiley

DirectX is on consoles - OpenGL is not... .


Hmm DirectX is  on XBox and only Xbox, whose console status is at least somewhat arguable.  In opint of aftc though by all reports from XBox develoerps none of them actually USE DX  in their shipped products because they cna get much better performance by coding straight to the hardware without much loss since their DX code wouldn't port to other consoles anyway.

OpenGL is on GameCube.  Its on PS2 with the Linux kit, there is a limited OGL subset for PalmOS, OpenGL ES is slated for small devices.

Seems to me  in the device category DX is the big loser.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #17 - Posted 2003-08-05 01:14:39 »

Quote
On all consoles?

I thought the PS2 was quite openGL like, but I may have dreamed that, as I never even thought about programming for one, let alone researching it.


The PS2 is distinctly not OpenGL like. Sony has a history for making 'interesting' proprietary APIs. The one for the PS2 didn't particularly suck, but it certainly wasn't an easy/straightforward API to deal with.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #18 - Posted 2003-08-05 01:21:39 »

Quote

Hmm DirectX is  on XBox and only Xbox, whose console status is at least somewhat arguable.  In opint of aftc though by all reports from XBox develoerps none of them actually USE DX  in their shipped products because they cna get much better performance by coding straight to the hardware without much loss since their DX code wouldn't port to other consoles anyway.


Can only speak about the platform developers who I know personally - most of which don't even consider the Gamecube a viable target and the XBox easier to approach from the standpoint of moving their code from the PC to the XBox. It becomes a lot cheaper for them to develop their code since they can either go bootleg to get to an alpha to show publishers or they can take their existing DirectX title and port it will little to no effort. In addition much of the middlewear out there does target DirectX fairly specifically - some even giving up on their OpenGL ports.

Quote

OpenGL is on GameCube.  Its on PS2 with the Linux kit, there is a limited OGL subset for PalmOS, OpenGL ES is slated for small devices.

Seems to me  in the device category DX is the big loser.


Right, but this isn't whether or not OpenGL is a better choice - its whether or not you can take a DirectX title (today) into a publisher and say 'hey I can do PC and Xbox SKUs right now'. For many of the people I talk to, this is exceedingly important because they don't see money in developing for PalmOS or other small devices - yet. Thouse there are couple out there who see the writing on the wall Smiley

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #19 - Posted 2003-08-05 11:21:11 »

It should be entirely possible and indeed eminently worthwhile to produce an OpenGL driver written in pure Java which calls DirectX to implement its OpenGL functionality.

Not all of OpenGL needs to be supported; OpenGL ES would be adequate.

I was having a little think about LWJGL and wondering whether we should be supporting full OpenGL at all any more. OpenGL ES is a very tidy, nice little spec with all the crap thrown out. Kind of what we want...

Cas Smiley

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #20 - Posted 2003-08-05 11:54:19 »

Quote

OpenGL is on GameCube.


Last i read the 'Cube API is openGL-like, but by no means just a straight copy. Nintendo were apparently aiming for a friendly interface which developers could get to grips with easily, so its likely its actually simpler than GL in parts.

Does anyone know what XBox Doom3 will be using? Its rumoured that Carmak said that an xbox version would be produced if MS produced an implementation of GL for it. A few months later the xbox version was announced.. I can't see iD putting up with a GL->DX wrapper, but since its an nForce chipset i'd assume that there'd only be a minimal amount of work needed.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Zynaps
Guest
« Reply #21 - Posted 2003-08-05 13:00:16 »

Quote


Can only speak about the platform developers who I know personally - most of which don't even consider the Gamecube a viable target and the XBox easier to approach from the standpoint of moving their code from the PC to the XBox.

This "easiness of porting" from PC to Xbox also shows a problem: a real games console isn't just a PC but a dedicated games machine. Every component is optimized for its single purpose: to make games look pretty good and fast. It's more complex to develop games compared to typical PC applications but this depends on your background. If you used to use great computers like the good old 8- and 16-bitters for example with all their nice custom chips, or come from a parallel processing IT sector, etc.

Ok, a Xbox is a PC. However on the same side this is a disadvantage, because it's bound to PC architecture. We don't see this very clear with the older PS2 and newer Xbox today (because PC game capabilities made a big step during the last years; although I think it already reached an end). However it's been visible very well with PS1 compared to past PCs, and it will be very visible again with PS3 and Xbox2. Because PS3 won't be bound to today's PC architecture.
I don't think a "all in one" solution will do the games job in a good way. I think a Symbian cellular phone does do a better job compared to WinCE, same applies to PS2 and Gamecube compared to Xbox.
(Indeed the - few - Gamecube games did impressive me a lot.)

Oh, I'm off-topic...
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #22 - Posted 2003-08-05 13:20:19 »

Quote


Right, but this isn't whether or not OpenGL is a better choice - its whether or not you can take a DirectX title (today) into a publisher and say 'hey I can do PC and Xbox SKUs right now'. For many of the people I talk to, this is exceedingly important ...


Well, if this community has it's way, developers won't be going to a publisher saying they can do XBox and PC, they will say: "We can do 5 platforms including a wireless component for online tasks while away from the primary platform."

Having said that, a lot of games coming from the PC to a console may not make sense, while a lot of others do make sense.  It really depends on the game.

BTW, the whole argument of titles that are specific to a particular platform to take advantage of the console's capabilities is starting to diminish.  Look at the strides that companies like Criterion have made.  Show me the real difference between Tony Hawk on multiple platforms, aside from play features, not drastic graphic changes.  The same for GTA.  Wait until developers get ahold of PS3 and see if they want to continue to go to the metal Smiley

-SG

P.S.  That reminds me, and Jeff can chime in here, John Carmack stated at last year's QuakeCon that he sees no reason to go to the metal anymore and will now only program to "standard" API's.  Of course, for id, that means OpenGL with port to DirectX.

Zynaps
Guest
« Reply #23 - Posted 2003-08-05 13:45:39 »

Quote

P.S.  That reminds me, and Jeff can chime in here, John Carmack stated at last year's QuakeCon that he sees no reason to go to the metal anymore and will now only program to "standard" API's.  Of course, for id, that means OpenGL with port to DirectX.

The sentence "OpenGL with port to DirectX" I don't understand, I'm afraid.
Does it apply to Doom3 in the way there will be a OpenGL version of Doom3 and a DirectX version?
Or does it mean that some ID engine games don't use OpenGL on Xbox but DirectX? (Is there OpenGL on Xbox?)

I don't agree on the PS3 matter, though. :-)  How could any developer exploit the multi processor and render farm features of the PS3 (alleged) in a native way on PS3 and .. PC at the same time? Use Java with muli threads? :-)  If it didn't make a difference to use these features then there's no need for a PS3 .. is it?
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #24 - Posted 2003-08-05 15:27:24 »

With regard to the PS3, without saying too much Smiley, it will be a significant task for any developer to code to the metal.  Not only do most game developers not have experience writing multi-threaded apps (look at Saturn and PS2 development - and people were calling the PS2 "Saturn Squared"), more and more developers are using high end visualziation tools and becoming used to having the middleware handle the "heavy lifting".

It will be necessary to have middleware that helps developers exploit the PS3 architecture due to it's complexity and the fact that a game developer generally does not have enough time to let their top coders spend 6 to 9 months becoming efficient multi-threading coders.  Not with a rumored 16 core system....

HOWEVER!  If there were some Java technologies, and a kick ass VM, that provided an interface to the architecture that did most of the work for the developer, different story.

-SG

P.S. The PC is a different story, but even here we find that bigger brains like Carmack are tired of writing to the metal.  What I meant by the OGL/DX comment in my prior post is that id STILL backs OGL and if they wanted to support another API it would be a port to DX.

Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #25 - Posted 2003-08-05 16:21:37 »

Quote

This "easiness of porting" from PC to Xbox also shows a problem: a real games console isn't just a PC but a dedicated games machine.


For people who make their living shipping software this isn't a big deal. Having to do a complete rewrite for a console is prohibitively expensive - hence the dawn of NDL, Renderware, etc. and its increasing adoption by studios. Publishers are concerned with making money (and rightly so) and they are not as concerned with the nuances of technology like we are - so for many of them, being able to port an existing application to the XBox is a huge win for them.


http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline bmyers

Junior Member





« Reply #26 - Posted 2003-08-05 16:38:08 »

Quote
It should be entirely possible and indeed eminently worthwhile to produce an OpenGL driver written in pure Java which calls DirectX to implement its OpenGL functionality.


Wasn't there one that already did that, called Java3D?   Wink

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #27 - Posted 2003-08-05 16:58:33 »

No, SciTech did it though, creating an actual Win32 driver which gave you OpenGL on D3D only cards, and it's reasonably good, too. It is of course a completely brainless business move on their part because for the price of their driver software you can buy a new video card that's already got drivers Cheesy But as a pure Java library with a nice BSD license on it it's got great merit.

D3D is a level lower than OpenGL; everything in OpenGL can be written in terms of D3D but not the other way round. You won't be surprised to find out that the code is 95% common in the drivers, too, and that largely speaking, this is why there is no noticeable performance difference between the two.

Essentially, it can and should be done. This is a project which would be incredibly valuable to a lot of people.

Cas Smiley

Offline benny

Junior Member




Java rocks! But then again anime rocks too!


« Reply #28 - Posted 2003-08-05 17:28:35 »

I always find DirectX to be more laggy. Quake III and Half-Life ran so smoothly on my comp. But Ghost Recon and Black and White had a lower framerate.

The reason why there code is similar is because Microsoft used OpenGL as a model (as they always do with other open source things) for DirectX. I even read this interview: "The only model we had was OpenGL..."

Can you define "level"?

Windows XP Professional
Pentium II 450 MHz with 256 MB of SD-RAM
64 MB GeForce4 MX-440 SE

Arnold Schwarzenegger runs for governor: Lets cut violence in half with a laser guided machine gun across the barren, charred wastelands--for the children.
Zynaps
Guest
« Reply #29 - Posted 2003-08-05 18:12:16 »

Quote

(..)
It will be necessary to have middleware that helps developers exploit the PS3 architecture due to it's complexity

I agree. However this middleware which has to address the special PS3 architecture, will be hardly useable for a PC-architectured Xbox2 - until it would be extremly generic which means slow again.

Quote
HOWEVER!  If there were some Java technologies, and a kick ass VM, that provided an interface to the architecture that did most of the work for the developer, different story.

Yes. Java is different and of course much more than a "middleware". ;-)

Quote
P.S. The PC is a different story, but even here we find that bigger brains like Carmack are tired of writing to the metal.  What I meant by the OGL/DX comment in my prior post is that id STILL backs OGL

I see your point.
Some time ago I read some quite positive comments from Carmack about OpenGL 2.0 and his praise of a pre-version of a 3dlabs Ogl 2.0 driver.
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