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  Is this about JOGL or something else?  (Read 5397 times)
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Offline Kommi

Junior Member




All opinions will be lined up and shot!


« Posted 2003-07-28 13:00:27 »

http://www.gamedev.net/info/news/FullStory.asp?StoryID=5389

this artice on gamedev.net, are they speaking of JOGL or something else?

Kommi
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #1 - Posted 2003-07-28 14:21:34 »

Although I slashdot ;-) I read the article.
What the heck is it?  Tell me this is not another seperate effort for OpenGL bindings but that this is a SIGGRAPH annoucement about JOGL...? :-D

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline aNt

Senior Member




AFK


« Reply #2 - Posted 2003-07-28 15:01:31 »

all cool with me.. it gets the java opengl out there and thats cool with me Smiley.. more the cooler..
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #3 - Posted 2003-07-28 15:33:41 »

yes, but is it cool?

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Offline Daath

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2003-07-28 16:04:30 »

but it is NOT  JOGL we are talking about here...so can anybody tell me what is the idea behind having two identical projects?
Online kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #5 - Posted 2003-07-28 16:08:01 »

Reading the text, the new joint project is aimed at OpenGL ES, isn't that the mobile based thing?

Kev

Offline Daath

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #6 - Posted 2003-07-28 16:13:20 »

could be..... but term "mobile terminal" can mean lotta different things
Offline Daath

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #7 - Posted 2003-07-28 16:16:29 »

one way or the other it is quite amusing  how many API we will have soon .... providing they all get finished before we get into something new  Grin
Offline DavidYazel

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #8 - Posted 2003-07-28 17:38:01 »

Justin Couch just wrote on the Java3D mailing list:

"This has been a very long time in the making. I'll try to find the other press release. It is now formal that Sun and SGI will be developing formal OpenGL bindings to Java. Note that this is _not_ the JOGL project on
JavaGaming. "


David Yazel
Xith3D Project Founder
http://xith3d.dev.java.net

It may look complicated, but in the end it is just a bunch of triangles
Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #9 - Posted 2003-07-28 17:58:11 »

That makes it sound like it's not just for mobile platforms and is a binding within the core API. Which would then mean, why would you want to use JOGL? What's going on here? Is there no communication within Sun? Could this mean JOGL is the test bed? This is a little strange I think.

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 14
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #10 - Posted 2003-07-28 18:05:21 »

I hope that new api exposes swapBuffers(). Wink

Play Minecraft!
Offline DavidYazel

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #11 - Posted 2003-07-28 18:43:52 »

It has been my experience that we would not get a fully clear, concise and accurate answer on this type of quesion.

David Yazel
Xith3D Project Founder
http://xith3d.dev.java.net

It may look complicated, but in the end it is just a bunch of triangles
Offline Mithrandir

Senior Member




Cut from being on the bleeding edge too long


« Reply #12 - Posted 2003-07-28 19:26:14 »

This is a full binding to all of the OpenGL specification, not just OpenGL ES. ES is both a subset of OpenGL 1.3 and additional functionality (eg fixed-point API calls),. The Java bindings for ES will form a part of this binding work.

Because of this dependency, it will not be using JOGL as the base (at least from what my Sun and SGI contacts are telling me - I'm one layer outside of the inner loop). JOGL is heavily dependent on AWT, which makes its usage in a mobile environment very difficult.

Note also that the forces inside Sun that have been pushing this are not the people traditionally associated with 3D graphics inside of Sun and therefore has, mostly nothing to do with the Java Gaming stuff here.

The site for 3D Graphics information http://www.j3d.org/
Aviatrix3D JOGL Scenegraph http://aviatrix3d.j3d.org/
Programming is essentially a markup language surrounding mathematical formulae and thus, should not be patentable.
Offline AndersDahlberg

Junior Member





« Reply #13 - Posted 2003-07-28 19:49:57 »

Sun management (no offence to you guys doing a great job on these forums/jogl) never stops amuse me Roll Eyes

A glimpse in to the future:
Soon(tm) management will probably decide that java3d should be renamed javagl2.0 and launch a private expert group that in the year 2010 presents it's first draft. Then java programmers interested in writing high performance games will step up and use nio buffers to interact with opengl3.0, whereas another division of Sun starts the JoGL3 open source project etc etc  Grin
Offline josgood

Senior Newbie




Nudge reality.


« Reply #14 - Posted 2003-07-28 20:04:59 »

I'm grumpy that it took Sun and SGI SEVEN years to get with it.  I'm pleased that they'll being using the JCP.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #15 - Posted 2003-07-28 21:01:18 »

I really hope that this means that  JOGL is adopted as the initial implementation and pulled into the JRE core and is always up to date and fully supported.... and there isn't wasted duplicate effort...

But I have a feeling this is going to create a bit of a mess instead Sad.

Archimedes
Guest
« Reply #16 - Posted 2003-07-28 21:20:25 »

This is strange news...
What do people spending a lot of time and effort into Jogl like Ken and others do have to think...?
:-(
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #17 - Posted 2003-07-28 22:33:38 »

I'll tell you what I think - screw em. Let them go off and BS with yet another binding if they want, don't really care. When their binding works on all the platforms that JOGL works on and is open source, I'll consider reading about it Cheesy

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #18 - Posted 2003-07-29 01:49:52 »

There is no doubt this comes as a shock to me ( usually have better info ;-))

However....
IMHO, this should not matter as far as development goes.  More marketing, great.  More resourcs, great.
2 OGL APIs, well it can't be that hard to jump between if one is dumped or whatever happens.

Now if the focus is OpenGL ES, good as well.  Many tools ( read graphs and renders ) if written simple and lite will port and can be useful in totally new markets/apps/idea etc.

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #19 - Posted 2003-07-29 10:01:45 »

...hm... what they might end up with here is some kind of bizarre cross between LWJGL and JOGL. We're going to add support for OpenGL ES as and when it becomes generally available. We've got no dependency on AWT; in fact our entire API is designed to run on Palm-sized devices right up to desktop PCs. Sounds familiar?

Look into my crystal ball:

I see a confusion of similar APIs... I see a tall dark stranger saying "Not invented here"... I see left hand and right hand blissfully unaware of each other's existence... I see the LWJGL getting it right first Wink...

Cas Smiley

Online kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #20 - Posted 2003-07-29 10:07:14 »

I see alot of people abstracting away from the rendering platform, avoid dependancy on any sort...

Hmmm, Java3D, Hmmmm Xith3D...

Kev

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #21 - Posted 2003-07-29 11:28:42 »

This merely shifts the "problem" onto a different API. If I had a quid for every person who's told me to "just write a wrapper layer so you can have a DirectX version too"... these people just have no idea.

Cas Smiley

Offline aNt

Senior Member




AFK


« Reply #22 - Posted 2003-07-29 11:34:10 »

dude its cool  Cool

its like having Java and JavaME - now theres a real cool JavaOpenGL and a JavaOpenES, its not going to be the same anyways. Smiley its all good news for Java.

top result mate i say!

Online kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #23 - Posted 2003-07-29 11:46:27 »

Cas,

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean a standard "API", I mean writing your own abstraction. It comes down to control I suppose.

Kev

Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #24 - Posted 2003-07-29 16:31:10 »

Quote

Look into my crystal ball:

I see a confusion of similar APIs... I see a tall dark stranger saying "Not invented here"... I see left hand and right hand blissfully unaware of each other's existence... I see the LWJGL getting it right first Wink...

Cas Smiley


I see larger studios looking at the commercially supported variant... sad but true. My pet project already has support for OpenGL ES and another API that has yet to be announced - something that having another layer around the renderer help attain in a couple of hours Smiley

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #25 - Posted 2003-07-29 20:22:06 »

Fortunately we have no commercial interests, only ethical ones Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #26 - Posted 2003-07-29 21:58:54 »

Those damn customers  Wink

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 343
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #27 - Posted 2003-07-30 08:56:46 »

I've just gotten hold of the OpenGL ES specs and header files.... I wonder what I can do with it in my spare time.

Cas Smiley

Offline Mithrandir

Senior Member




Cut from being on the bleeding edge too long


« Reply #28 - Posted 2003-07-30 14:51:32 »

Sorry on the slow response times. Lots of things happening here at Siggraph.

Yes, the OpenGL ES spec is now release. There is an adopters agreement in the works for those that wish to nominate that they conform to the spec (compatibility test kit, sample implementation source etc). That will retail at about US$1K (at least that is what they said at the BoF yesterday). Obviously, that's pretty useless for those of us in Java land, but there is high expectation of formal Java bindings coming out soon too (either directly from the above JSR or as a side project). Note, however, that SGI stated flat out yesterday at the BoF that you must respect the logo and trademark issues. You can't call your implementation "OpenGL" or "OpenGL ES" without having gone through the conformance testing.

Now, for what's happening with the JSR... From what I can find out, Doug Twilleager is the spec lead, and the rest is up for grabs. One part of Sun wants to offer the JOGL work as the reference implementation for the spec work, but there are other parts of Sun, and a number of other companies that don't. As a simple rule, assume that the formal package name will not be net.java.jogl. It will either be org.opengl.foo or something in the javax line - like javax.media.opengl. So, even if the API calls remain exactly the same, you will need at least two different sets of code if you are to support both JOGL and whatever comes out o f the JSR process.  

Personally, I've been chatting with the Sun people and telling them what a screwup of their marketing they've been doing. With any luck, they'll listen.  I've already pointed them to these threads here about the confusion going on amongst the various communities.

More to come as I work my way through Siggraph....

The site for 3D Graphics information http://www.j3d.org/
Aviatrix3D JOGL Scenegraph http://aviatrix3d.j3d.org/
Programming is essentially a markup language surrounding mathematical formulae and thus, should not be patentable.
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